Trade up!

Originally posted by eastcoast49ersfan:

Originally posted by CWin4949:

Why is he red zone threat???

Why is Jimmy Graham a red zone threat?

IDK why???

Originally posted by CWin4949:

Originally posted by strickac:
Mike Evans is a monster, a complete stud. He's the one guy I would love to see us trade up for. If he gets past TB or our out of the top 10, I think Baalke goes all-in for him. He is the perfect weapon against Seattle and a redzone threat.

Why is he red zone threat???

Because he caught that one jump ball in his highlight reel, and he's tall. So obviously he will dominate the Seattle secondary.

Originally posted by CWin4949:

IDK why???

Size, strength, long arms, basketball background (shielding), physical, and competitive (both have great verticals, but that's an overrated stat in the red zone because you rarely see receivers come close to their vertical in most situations especially on fades or near the sidelines where receivers could get knocked out of bounds easily). Graham has the best combination of height and length of any TE or receiver in the league as far as I know - 6'6-6'7 with 35" arms and has great size to shield smaller defenders. Evans is slightly smaller at 6'5 with 35 1/8" arms but still massive for a receiver and showed some jump ball ability in college. The funny thing that stands out when watching both these guys is how helpless corners are on well placed balls - it's very difficult to contest throws to Graham around the end zone.

Originally posted by BrianGO:

Originally posted by CWin4949:

Originally posted by strickac:

Mike Evans is a monster, a complete stud. He's the one guy I would love to see us trade up for. If he gets past TB or our out of the top 10, I think Baalke goes all-in for him. He is the perfect weapon against Seattle and a redzone threat.

Why is he red zone threat???

Because he caught that one jump ball in his highlight reel, and he's tall. So obviously he will dominate the Seattle secondary.

Sarcasm.......??? I like it......

Originally posted by eastcoast49ersfan:
Size, strength, long arms, basketball background (shielding), physical, and competitive (both have great verticals, but that's an overrated stat in the red zone because you rarely see receivers come close to their vertical in most situations. Graham has the best combination of height and length of any TE or receiver in the league as far as I know - 6'6-6'7 with 35" arms and has great size to shield smaller defenders. Evans is slightly smaller at 6'5 with 35 1/8" arms but still massive for a receiver and showed some jump ball ability in college. The funny thing that stands out when watching both these guys is how helpless corners are on well placed balls - it's very difficult to contest throws to Graham around the end zone.

The key is "well placed balls".

Saying Evans or Graham bail their quarterbacks out is like saying Chris Paul is bailed out by his teammates whenever he throws an alley-oop. The alley-oop requires a perfectly placed ball, the catch and dunk makes the forward look spectacular, but the hardest part of it is the pass from the guard.

Originally posted by eastcoast49ersfan:

Originally posted by CWin4949:

IDK why???

Size, strength, long arms, basketball background (shielding), physical, and competitive (both have great verticals, but that's an overrated stat in the red zone because you rarely see receivers come close to their vertical in most situations especially on fades or near the sidelines where receivers could get knocked out of bounds easily). Graham has the best combination of height and length of any TE or receiver in the league as far as I know - 6'6-6'7 with 35" arms and has great size to shield smaller defenders. Evans is slightly smaller at 6'5 with 35 1/8" arms but still massive for a receiver and showed some jump ball ability in college. The funny thing that stands out when watching both these guys is how helpless corners are on well placed balls - it's very difficult to contest throws to Graham around the end zone.

So you're saying Baldwin would be a great red zone target as well.....??? They're the same build with the same abilities *in the redzone*......you saw how much he helped the offense last year right???

You guys don't get it....we don't use our WRs like that. What makes you think we will now??? We had RANDY FREAKIN MOSS and we NEVER used him in the redzone, NOT EVEN IN THE SUPERBOWL.......Now we're going to change???

BTW, I'm not comparing Moss to Graham, just saying we've players that could be used the same way and we didn't use them.

Originally posted by BrianGO:

The key is "well placed balls".

Saying Evans or Graham bail their quarterbacks out is like saying Chris Paul is bailed out by his teammates whenever he throws an alley-oop. The alley-oop requires a perfectly placed ball, the catch and dunk makes the forward look spectacular, but the hardest part of it is the pass from the guard.

The other key part of that is "helpless". Corners are helpless when the ball is placed well, but these two guys each have a massive catch radius and instinctively shield defenders. They are capable of coming down with jump balls that aren't placed perfectly but they are near unstoppable on perfect throws. Granted, Kaepernick doesn't have the touch Brees has, but Evans is a better jump ball receiver coming out than Graham was. He can still get better at attacking the ball, but I love his competitiveness.

Evans did bail his QB out on some up for grabs balls that weren't placed perfectly the past two seasons, but Manziel also made him look good with placement other times.

Originally posted by MC9BEAT:

Draft a CB in rd 2 and another in rd 3 or 4. We certainly could fit them on the roster.
Example: trade back
rd 2 Stephen Tuitt DE
rd 2 Jordan Mathews WR or Donte Moncreif WR
rd 2 Stanley Jean Baptiste CB
rd 3 Cody Latimer WR
rd 3 Marcus Martin C
rd 3 Pierre Desir CB
rd 4 Craig Loston S or Antone Exum S or Dri Archer PR/KR
rd 5 Aaron Colvin CB or Brandon Thomas G both pup list prospects
rd 7 pup list prospects Thomas G, Long G, Sunseri S, Whitley S, Millard FB, Pick best 3 still on the board

Now this is just an example draft but who on this list couldn't make the team? They all could help us win now and help us in to the future with the exception of the red shirt pup list guys who could help us in the future while costing us very little draft capital now. Plus the extra pick for 2015.

I know some want to trade up and get a top flight WR but there are top flight WR's in this draft in rounds 2 and 3. Go back and look at the 49ers draft since Bill Walsh year 1979.

We used 6 , 1st round picks at WR ( 2 to move up for JJ Stokes and 1+ for Jerry Rice)
We got 2 great receivers, Rice and Crabtree. 1 solid player stokes and 2 complete worthless busts. Only 2 while using six 1st rd picks. The talk about Stokes was similar to the talk about Evans today.

We drafted no WR's in the 2nd rd

We used 7, 3rd rd picks and ended up with 2 great WR's , Terrell Owens and John Taylor for way way less draft capital.

We used 3 , 4th rd picks and got Quinton Patton and Brandon Lloyd

This being a very deep WR class the value is in the later rounds. I really don't care what the 49ers do as long as when they draft they pick really good players but the going wisdom is there is more value trading back in a deep draft and trading up in a weak draft and this is a very deep draft, especially at the positions we need most WR and CB. We would end up with Tuitt giving us 2 top flight DE's to rotate in and eventually take over solidifying our DL for years and years to come, 2 top WR prospects and 2 top CB prospects plus a top O-line prospect and safety prospect. Add to that the value of the pup list guys and an extra top pick for 2015 it wouldn't be the worst way to go for this draft.

That is the ideal draft.

Originally posted by eastcoast49ersfan:

Originally posted by MC9BEAT:
Actually I was thinking drafting 2 WR's - 1 in the 2nd rd and another in rounds 3 or 4. That could end up being Jordan Mathews or Donte Moncreif plus someone like Coleman or Ellington or Latimer. All top flight prospects and assuming Lloyd still has it they could replace Baldwin and Osgood on the roster.

Draft a CB in rd 2 and another in rd 3 or 4. We certainly could fit them on the roster.
Example: trade back
rd 2 Stephen Tuitt DE
rd 2 Jordan Mathews WR or Donte Moncreif WR
rd 2 Stanley Jean Baptiste CB
rd 3 Cody Latimer WR
rd 3 Marcus Martin C
rd 3 Pierre Desir CB
rd 4 Craig Loston S or Antone Exum S or Dri Archer PR/KR
rd 5 Aaron Colvin CB or Brandon Thomas G both pup list prospects
rd 7 pup list prospects Thomas G, Long G, Sunseri S, Whitley S, Millard FB, Pick best 3 still on the board

Now this is just an example draft but who on this list couldn't make the team? They all could help us win now and help us in to the future with the exception of the red shirt pup list guys who could help us in the future while costing us very little draft capital now. Plus the extra pick for 2015.

I know some want to trade up and get a top flight WR but there are top flight WR's in this draft in rounds 2 and 3. Go back and look at the 49ers draft since Bill Walsh year 1979.

We used 6 , 1st round picks at WR ( 2 to move up for JJ Stokes and 1+ for Jerry Rice)
We got 2 great receivers, Rice and Crabtree. 1 solid player stokes and 2 complete worthless busts. Only 2 while using six 1st rd picks. The talk about Stokes was similar to the talk about Evans today.

We drafted no WR's in the 2nd rd

We used 7, 3rd rd picks and ended up with 2 great WR's , Terrell Owens and John Taylor for way way less draft capital.

We used 3 , 4th rd picks and got Quinton Patton and Brandon Lloyd

This being a very deep WR class the value is in the later rounds. I really don't care what the 49ers do as long as when they draft they pick really good players but the going wisdom is there is more value trading back in a deep draft and trading up in a weak draft and this is a very deep draft, especially at the positions we need most WR and CB. We would end up with Tuitt giving us 2 top flight DE's to rotate in and eventually take over solidifying our DL for years and years to come, 2 top WR prospects and 2 top CB prospects plus a top O-line prospect and safety prospect. Add to that the value of the pup list guys and an extra top pick for 2015 it wouldn't be the worst way to go for this draft.

It's an example draft, but Moncrief, Latimer, and Desir won't be available that late. I agree that most or all of those players in the first 4 rounds would make the team, but that would come at the expense of kicking some other players off the roster where they could be stolen by other teams. We don't need a ton of players - we can make room for those guys, but it would come at the cost of potentially losing guys like Baldwin and Okoye/Dial off the practice squad. For the record, I really like Tuitt and don't care at all if another team takes one of our backup defensive linemen off the practice squad if we get him, but there is a cost associated with drafting a lot of rookies.

I still think we are more likely to trade up in the second than the first because there are a lot of good WR's who will go between 30 and 56 and I expect 1-2 of the top 5 corners to go in the early second as well, but I would not complain if we got a decent deal for Evans.

I hear you. Like I said: I don't care what the 49ers do as long as when they select they draft good players. The players we would have to cut are no great loss to the team if it works out that way. We could trade back from rd 1 and take Tuitt and then use that pick to trade back up in rd 2. This is Baalke so I imagine there will be trade ups and trade backs anywhere in our draft.

I do want to see us get 2 good WR's and 2 good CB's. I would love a great DL like Tuitt. Take our 3 starters at the end of last year and add Tank and Dial and Tuitt. That gives you six locks assuming they all stay healthy. The rest can battle it out for 2 more slots. Williams, Okoye, TJE ect...If 1 is injured in preseason we can keep them all.

We have a lot of ammo in a very deep draft. Let's just hope we select well because if we do no matter how it goes down this will be a great draft for the 49ers.

Originally posted by CWin4949:

So you're saying Baldwin would be a great red zone target as well.....??? They're the same build with the same abilities *in the redzone*......you saw how much he helped the offense last year right???

You guys don't get it....we don't use our WRs like that. What makes you think we will now??? We had RANDY FREAKIN MOSS and we NEVER used him in the redzone, NOT EVEN IN THE SUPERBOWL.......Now we're going to change???

BTW, I'm not comparing Moss to Graham, just saying we've players that could be used the same way and we didn't use them.

Baldwin and Moss are not as physical or strong as Graham and Evans (Graham is obviously stronger than Evans). Baldwin was not a great red zone threat or jump ball receiver in college either. I knew this was what you were getting at when asking why he's a good red zone receiver, but Evans is a completely different player than Baldwin. Baldwin was closer to Martavis Bryant than Evans, but Bryant has better hands than Baldwin. Both needed work on route running and were straight line speed guys with good height. Evans is an inch taller than Baldwin, his arms are an inch and a half longer, and he plays more physically and is more competitive. Randy Moss was over the hill when we had him and was never known as a physical receiver.

I didn't think I could have been much clearer that size and vertical jump were not the only factors, but I guess I wasn't clear enough. Baldwin had 3, 8, and 5 TD's in college against easier competition than Evans (and several of those were on go routes or after the catch rather than red zone catches). Evans had 12 this past season. Baldwin was known to be a poor and unwilling run blocker while Evans pancakes guys and draws flags for being too physical. Evans is a fiery competitor and Baldwin takes plays off. They are different receivers, but if you want to continue to treat players the same because they happen to be a similar size, be my guest.

Originally posted by eastcoast49ersfan:
The other key part of that is "helpless". Corners are helpless when the ball is placed well, but these two guys each have a massive catch radius and instinctively shield defenders. They are capable of coming down with jump balls that aren't placed perfectly but they are near unstoppable on perfect throws. Granted, Kaepernick doesn't have the touch Brees has, but Evans is a better jump ball receiver coming out than Graham was. He can still get better at attacking the ball, but I love his competitiveness.

Evans did bail his QB out on some up for grabs balls that weren't placed perfectly the past two seasons, but Manziel also made him look good with placement other times.

I understand Evans has ability. I'm not saying he is garbage. I would take him in the 3rd, but of course it's all relative. A top ten pick? No way. I can't see it.
Yes, I understand he has the ability to do more with a well placed ball than a shorter receiver can, but that doesn't mean he is a top ten pick.

You are kind of making my point for me by saying Jimmy Graham was not a jump ball receiver in college, but now in the pro's he is. I think that is because he has Drew Brees. YES, he has the ability to do it because he provides Brees with a bigger throwing window, but if those balls aren't perfectly placed, Graham doesn't catch them.
Some people seem to imply that if the quarterback just throws it up for grabs, then the receiver does the rest, but that is not the case with Evans or Graham. Jerry Rice could do that. Steve Smith can do that. Many other players can do that. Brandon Cooks can do that, and Laron Landry can do that. Anquan Boldin can do it also.
They do this because of how they use their BODY POSITIONING and strength. It's not about height. Charles Barkley and Dennis Rodman could rebound the ball better than taller guys, because of their body positioning, anticipation and strength.

Evans appears to be a great jump ball receiver in college, but what about his teammates? They TOO catch jump balls for Texas A&M. It's not JUST Evans making those plays for that team. The same can be said for the Saints. Yes, the bigger targets provide better throwing windows for those quarterbacks, but again, it's the THROW that makes that play happen. The size of the target just helps the quarterback decide to throw it to them more often.

Like Chris Paul with the Clippers. When EVERYONE on the team is catching alley-oops, that tells me something about the guard, more than it tells me about the guy on the team catching the most alley-oops from the guard.

Originally posted by eastcoast49ersfan:

Originally posted by CWin4949:

So you're saying Baldwin would be a great red zone target as well.....??? They're the same build with the same abilities *in the redzone*......you saw how much he helped the offense last year right???

You guys don't get it....we don't use our WRs like that. What makes you think we will now??? We had RANDY FREAKIN MOSS and we NEVER used him in the redzone, NOT EVEN IN THE SUPERBOWL.......Now we're going to change???

BTW, I'm not comparing Moss to Graham, just saying we've players that could be used the same way and we didn't use them.

Baldwin and Moss are not as physical or strong as Graham and Evans (Graham is obviously stronger than Evans). Baldwin was not a great red zone threat or jump ball receiver in college either. I knew this was what you were getting at when asking why he's a good red zone receiver, but Evans is a completely different player than Baldwin. Baldwin was closer to Martavis Bryant than Evans, but Bryant has better hands than Baldwin. Both needed work on route running and were straight line speed guys with good height. Evans is an inch taller than Baldwin, his arms are an inch and a half longer, and he plays more physically and is more competitive. Randy Moss was over the hill when we had him and was never known as a physical receiver.

I didn't think I could have been much clearer that size and vertical jump were not the only factors, but I guess I wasn't clear enough. Baldwin had 3, 8, and 5 TD's in college against easier competition than Evans (and several of those were on go routes or after the catch rather than red zone catches). Evans had 12 this past season. Baldwin was known to be a poor and unwilling run blocker while Evans pancakes guys and draws flags for being too physical. Evans is a fiery competitor and Baldwin takes plays off. They are different receivers, but if you want to continue to treat players the same because they happen to be a similar size, be my guest.

I'm not saying their the same player because they are similar in size, I'm saying we have never used our WRs *in the redzone* the way that you and others describe that Evan would be used. What leads you to believe that will change now???

I'm not arguing with you to be an a-hole, I'm just asking why are we all of the sudden going to change our offense in the redzone???

I agree that is EXACTLY what we should have already been using for the past 3 years with Smith as well as Kap, but week in and week out I can watch endless highlights of Calvin Johnson and Fitzgerald making catch after catch in the end zone by snatching the ball away from defenders, yet we never once have gone for a big WR to make the same plays for us.

I'd be all for it, if I thought the coaching staff could develop and use WRs correctly in redzone situations, but I haven't seen it once yet....

Originally posted by BrianGO:

You are kind of making my point for me by saying Jimmy Graham was not a jump ball receiver in college, but now in the pro's he is. I think that is because he has Drew Brees. YES, he has the ability to do it because he provides Brees with a bigger throwing window, but if those balls aren't perfectly placed, Graham doesn't catch them.

I disagree that Brees made Graham a jump ball receiver - I was more speaking to how raw Graham was since he played basketball in college until senior year. Having Brees undoubtably helps, but I think Graham has become the best jump ball receiver in the NFL with Megatron as a close 2nd. Graham is one of those players that a QB can throw the ball to and trust he comes down with it. Evans was like that for Manziel. Both those guys open up opportunities for their teammates because they can't be covered one on one. The other receivers are benefiting from having Brees as their QB but they also benefit from having Graham take pressure off them.

When you regularly watch Graham out jumping defenders who stare helplessly, you have to give some credit to Graham. He would be a threat in any offense.

If we trade up, I say Gilbert. We can get Allan Robinson or Jordan Matthews or something like that.

My draft guess... We take Logan Thomas in the 4 the or 5th round. Harbaugh is one of few people that could get something out of him.

Hopefully though, we bring back b.j. Daniels

49ers GM Baalke on Brandin Cooks: "You've got to determine: Does he play 5-9, or 6-ft." Me: Which is it? Baalke: "Watch the film." Ok, 6-ft