MadDog's Niners Draft Grade and Analysis for 2012 NFL Draft

Originally posted by Wu-5Rings:

C'mon NY half of this webzone cannot stand Harbaugh.. If he would have a gm that worked with him and not against him. We would have our 6th ring by now and I truly believe that..

Dude I'm speaking for myself not what are people are saying...we had a chance at a 6th ring and we got out coached that day it wasn't lack of talent

Originally posted by tjd808185:

Why would you on a power based run 1st team? Crabs, Delanie, Moss and Vernon makes a ton more sense. We finished 2nd per play in 2012, was firing on all cylinders.

Ginn made the right move for himself. He works with a qb like Cam who's constantly looking to sling it deep. When he got playing time here in 11 he had Alex Smith as his qb. Someone you have to beat over the head to chuck it deep.

Then you missed the comment about Harbs offense being a power run/deep ball team... Geidi stated this. he said there was no deep speed to make Harbs offense go...yet they had one of the fastest NFL players on the field in Ginn at one point (who never got used), had one of the fastest TEs in the league, and they brought in one of the all time greats at the deep ball in Moss, who has zero targets in the playoffs.

Originally posted by Giedi:
As to Harbaugh's offense. His style of a power run offense with the long ball has won many super bowls. 3 with Al Davis and 2 with Joe Gibbs and 4 with Chuck Noll. The only Neanderthal thing about it is that it's a run first offense that features a power running game. Otherwise, the passing side is as sophisticated as the WCO is (for a long ball offense) it still relies on timing and anticipation just like the WCO. But it needs speed at the WR positions to make it work. Baalke never gave that to Harbaugh.

If you look at the 1973 and 1974 Steelers, you can see great defenses, but until they added speed - that offense didn't take them deep into the playoffs. Add in John Stallworth and Lynn Swan and that offense took off and super bowls started appearing in their cupboards.

Stallworth, blessed with great leaping ability and excellent speed, was the 82nd player taken that year. After a rookie year as an understudy, he became a starter in his second season and held that job for the rest of his 165-game career. .https://www.google.com/search?biw=1920&bih=963&ei=FfVPW9c30di1BbXmjsAK&q=speed+of+john+stallworth%3F&oq=speed+of+john+stallworth%3F&gs_l=psy-ab.3...24607.29369.0.29892.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.TborGxwsrH8

So Rooney arranged to time Swann on the West Coast. Swann ran a 4.55. That was good enough for Noll. http://old.post-gazette.com/steelers/20010420nfldraft2.asp

To understand the Raiders' obsession with speed, you have to go back to early 1964. That's when Davis started collecting fast players in addition to wide receivers to attack defenses. His tight end at the time, Ken Herock, was mostly a blocker. Davis acquired former Heisman Trophy-winning running back Billy Cannon after Cannon spent three years with the Houston Oilers. In 1961, he led the AFL in rushing. But Davis converted him to a receiving tight end.
"I knew he wanted to replace me with Billy because Billy could really run," Herock said.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2036826-speed-was-the-all-consuming-obsession-of-al-davis-raiders

Once idiot Baalke got rid of the speed on Harbaugh's offense, and never replaced it, Harbaugh's offense was doomed.

As to the Draft. After the disastrous 2012 draft, the personal relationship between Harbaugh and Baalke deteriorated. However, the *role* of a GM is not to coach the team, that's the HC's job. The *role* of a GM is to support the HC, and Baalke did a piss poor job of it. If you talk about drafts - Baalke was not responsible for the 2011 draft (which was largely on McDrunk) in terms of the effort provided. Baalke's drafts after 2011 stank - and one of the reasons is that he wasn't communicating well with Harbaugh and Harbaugh's coaching staff. The role of a GM is to support his HC, not back stab his coach. After the 2012 draft, Harbaugh knew he had a chicken s**t GM and he couldn't do a dang thing about it because under the terms Jed, Harbaugh, and Baalke agreed to, is that Harbaugh is the coach and Baalke is the GM, that's probably one reason he never signed an extension. So the final responsibility for any draft during Baalke's tenure is his, not Harbaughs. Jimmy Ward and Tank were drafted *after* Baalke and Jim's relationship pretty much deteriorated to where they weren't communicating and hence the bad drafts after 2011.

As for College vs NFL, its *easier* to get talent in the NFL vs College in this sense, you either draft them or sign them. Having said that, again talent acquisition is the responsibility of the GM not the Head Coach under the Haarbalke Regime. How many undrafted players make the NFL every year - a good bunch of 'em I think. As for Harbaugh, Pete Carroll, and Ditka, my point was that rah rah works if the HC is in *charge* of the team vs having a backstabbing GM tank your coaching career. I think Harbaugh did a pretty good job of winning despite a crap GM and a clueless Owner *helping* him. Again, I go back to how Harbaugh improved the offense when he got to the 49ers and how the offense tanked when he left. I think (and again, I agree it's sheer speculation) if he's given the total reins of an NFL club, he probably could do as well as Kyle has done so far. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm totally ecstatic that Kyle is our Coach and I wouldn't trade him for Harbaugh, but I still think Harbaugh got screwed by the owner and the GM. I just think if Harbaugh had *his* GM and *his* guys, I think he'd have no problems communicating with them - and just look at how Ditka and Al Davis did with the Raiders and Bears with both of *their* personalities. They did just fine, because they had total control.

Listen....I'm not trying to support Baalke in any shape or forum he f**ked up, I've stated this over and over. You And Wu are acting like Harbs did nothing wrong and he brought the bad news bears to the Super Bowl which is straight nonsense.

You bring up 3 teams from the 70s and 80s as to why his scheme isn't old school lol? He talked about bringing back the WCO when hired and didn't, his stubborn ass refused to change s**t around when it needed to, no in game adjustments etc...

What are you talking about "Baalke wasn't responsible for the 2011 draft"? Scott was fired over a yr prior to the 2011 draft...it was Baalke's 2nd draft as the GM. I can give you 2010 but not 2011 sir.

As to there being not deep speed I don't believe that, Ginn was one of the fastest players in the NFL, Davis was one of the fastest TEs in the league, Moss was one of the all-time greats at the deep ball (both Ginn and Moss were underutilized IMO). If Harbs was so frustrated about not having a deep threat, why did he help bring in Boldin? You damn well know he talked to his brother about trading for him.

Is Michigan chalk full of speed or is full of big monsters looking to knock the s**t out of you with ground and pound along with a stud defense...much like SF was?

If you truly think Baalke was trying to back stab Harbs and make him lose that's fine, imo I think he wanted to win just as much. Who's got a bigger track record as someone who's hard to work with? Jim has the reputation everywhere he's been. Rah rah s**t only works as long as you're winning every yr in the NFL...these are grown ass men screaming "who's got it better than us" for god sake, that s**t gets old. Even players who played under Jim have stated that.

When Staley says Kyle is the smartest HC and has created a great locker room that means something...dude never said that about Jim.

Again I don't hate Jim think he's a solid coach. He's shtick is perfect for college ball. His personality is prefect for recruiting 18 yr old men. I wish him well and maybe if they had a better GM he'd still be here...I'm not gonna say Jim did no wrong while in SF there was plenty he messed up on as well.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Wu-5Rings:

C'mon NY half of this webzone cannot stand Harbaugh.. If he would have a gm that worked with him and not against him. We would have our 6th ring by now and I truly believe that..

Dude I'm speaking for myself not what are people are saying...we had a chance at a 6th ring and we got out coached that day it wasn't lack of talent

Agree to disagree,

A bench is part of the roster as it should be.

If you get a bunch of starters going great, if players start underperforming, getting hurt, getting arrested that coach is f**ked.

Plain and Simple and that goes for any coach trying to compete at the end of the season. Lol It's not because it's JH and I'm a Michigan fan.

A bench is needed or at least some type of competition. There was no one if you had to sit a starter down for any reason.. Injuries plagued us, string of arrests and exodus of players retiring...

Insufficient talent was the main problem.

Ted Ginn got hurt, we had to put in Kyle Williams, Baalke's best receiver drafted..

Guess what he does muffs a punt at the wrong time, years later no where to be found in any nfl team roster.

There was absolutely no bench. It's very important to have one come playoff time.

Originally posted by Wu-5Rings:
Agree to disagree,

A bench is part of the roster as it should be.

If you get a bunch of starters going great, if players start underperforming, getting hurt, getting arrested that coach is f**ked.

Plain and Simple and that goes for any coach trying to compete at the end of the season. Lol It's not because it's JH and I'm a Michigan fan.

A bench is needed or at least some type of competition. There was no one if you had to sit a starter down for any reason.. Injuries plagued us, string of arrests and exodus of players retiring...

Insufficient talent was the main problem.

Ted Ginn got hurt, we had to put in Kyle Williams, Baalke's best receiver drafted..

Guess what he does muffs a punt at the wrong time, years later no where to be found in any nfl team roster.

There was absolutely no bench. It's very important to have one come playoff time.

excuses man, our 4th WR sucks, our 4th DL sucks blah blah blah...what was the excuse for blowing the Super Bowl? Talent? BS. Balitomore 3rd WR was Jacoby Jones who had 12 targets the whole season. Stop acting like Harbs was some wizard that took a bunch of scrubs to a SB. He was a damn good coach who had some damn good talent for a couple seasons.

Any team if they lose 9+ starters to IR will have a down yr (2014)...who did we lose in 2012? The only guys worth a damn on IR was Williams, and Mario...Ginn got two targets that season...two. He heads to Carolina the next yr get's like 550 yards and 5 TDs. He was that deep threat that Geidi says we never had. Same with Moss and VD.

Freaking Fangio never played young players and stated that much (he always wanted the vets).

instead of manning up and saying Harbs had his flaws (because he sure as hell did) your pushing every negative on a GM. Long-term Baalke f**ked this team more than when Jim was here from a talent standpoint. s**t was already built and ready to roll, we just needed a coach who knew what the f**k to do, which Jim did.

So yes we will agree to disagree on stuff from 5 or so yrs ago lol. BOTH played a part in the s**t show that happened, Jim was not completely innocent

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Then you missed the comment about Harbs offense being a power run/deep ball team... Geidi stated this. he said there was no deep speed to make Harbs offense go...yet they had one of the fastest NFL players on the field in Ginn at one point (who never got used), had one of the fastest TEs in the league, and they brought in one of the all time greats at the deep ball in Moss, who has zero targets in the playoffs.

Like I've said though in 2012 we were balling on offense. 2nd per play. When did our offense not score in the playoffs that year? They had a few slow starts with a 1st year starting qb but dropped big points every game.

So Giedi might be wrong that we never had deep speed but as JH's tenure went on there's no denying Baalke replaced that speed with a big bucket of slow. Anquan Boldin, Stevie Johnson to pair with Crabtee. Where's the speed there? The tight end was the deep threat which even for Vernon is ridiculous.

Let's talk 2012 then NY.

Yet the play came down to Kyle Williams muffing a punt against the Giants...

Ted Ginn was hurt dude... Wtf Should JH have done??? Why the f**k would I blame him??? He put Kyle Williams in there. He cannot play for the players NY. It's not allowed..

Return the punts for him? I don't think they allow coaches to do that NY..

Facts.. It came down to Kyle Williams muffing a punt in the nfc championship game against the Giants but you want to blame a coach for Kyle Williams muffing a punt??????

The bias narrative continues, I'm sorry but I don't think he is to blame for Ginn getting hurt and underperforming and Kyle Williams muffing a punt at the wrong time..

Why the hell would I blame the coach for a muffed punt???He went to the bench....

I gues I'm bias then because Kyle lost it for us in 2012.

Originally posted by tjd808185:

Originally posted by NYniner85:
Then you missed the comment about Harbs offense being a power run/deep ball team... Geidi stated this. he said there was no deep speed to make Harbs offense go...yet they had one of the fastest NFL players on the field in Ginn at one point (who never got used), had one of the fastest TEs in the league, and they brought in one of the all time greats at the deep ball in Moss, who has zero targets in the playoffs.

Like I've said though in 2012 we were balling on offense. 2nd per play. When did our offense not score in the playoffs that year? They had a few slow starts with a 1st year starting qb but dropped big points every game.

So Giedi might be wrong that we never had deep speed but as JH's tenure went on there's no denying Baalke replaced that speed with a big bucket of slow. Anquan Boldin, Stevie Johnson to pair with Crabtee. Where's the speed there? The tight end was the deep threat which even for Vernon is ridiculous.

HA you think Jim had no say in Boldin coming here? You don't think he spoke to his brother...come on now.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/gameon/2013/03/19/anquan-boldin-trade-49ers-ravens-harbaughs/2001465/

Yes 2012 was the only yr this offense wasn't ranked in the 20s for overall offense. Jim really used all that "speed" in 2012, Ted Ginn ran a 4.28 FYI and got TWO targets all yr.

Is Jim's current team built around speed and throwing the ball OR is it built in a similar fashion as the Niners teams with ground & pound and knocking the snot out of you on defense?

Originally posted by Wu-5Rings:
Let's talk 2012 then NY.

Yet the play came down to Kyle Williams muffing a punt against the Giants...

Ted Ginn was hurt dude... Wtf Should JH have done??? Why the f**k would I blame him??? He put Kyle Williams in there. He cannot play for the players NY. It's not allowed..

Return the punts for him? I don't think they allow coaches to do that NY..

Facts.. It came down to Kyle Williams muffing a punt in the nfc championship game against the Giants but you want to blame a coach for Kyle Williams muffing a punt??????

The bias narrative continues, I'm sorry but I don't think he is to blame for Ginn getting hurt and underperforming and Kyle Williams muffing a punt at the wrong time..

Why the hell would I blame the coach for a muffed punt???He went to the bench....

I gues I'm bias then because Kyle lost it for us in 2012.

Dude we went to the Super Bowl in the 2012 season...you're off by a yr so no your FACTS are wrong my man

AGAIN what was the excuse for the Super Bowl? Ted Ginn was NOT hurt in the super bowl and had 1 target! We should have b***h slapped the Ravens based on talent and yet we lost on all 3 phases of the game because of coaching. Not once have I talked about a muffed punt from 2011.

you're calling me bias? seriously? I'm being objective man...I'm not the one who's a hardcore Michigan fan, I've been saying Jim was a good coach BUT had his flaws which you for some weird reason are unwilling to accept.

Baalke gets a huge blame for drafting like s**t...which ultimately affected us more down the road than in 2011/2012/2013. It's similar to the Seahawks who had two amazing drafts that made that team who they were for 5 yrs. They drafted like dogs s**t the past 4 or 5 yrs and now that the vets are leaving they have nothing.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

HA you think Jim had no say in Boldin coming here? You don't think he spoke to his brother...come on now.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/gameon/2013/03/19/anquan-boldin-trade-49ers-ravens-harbaughs/2001465/

Yes 2012 was the only yr this offense wasn't ranked in the 20s for overall offense. Jim really used all that "speed" in 2012, Ted Ginn ran a 4.28 FYI and got TWO targets all yr.

Is Jim's current team built around speed and throwing the ball OR is it built in a similar fashion as the Niners teams with ground & pound and knocking the snot out of you on defense?

Who cares if the deep threat is only used as a decoy? Does it matter if it's Crabs, Vernon and Delanie tearing you apart underneath? You can't complain when the results are there. Now I agree you can complain about 13, 14 but that's after Baalke's personnel blunders starting wrecking everything.

No one said JH never had a say in anything. On it's own bringing in Boldin is not a terrible move. Hell it saved the 2013 offense because Crabs got hurt. Boldin stepped in and put up a 1k yard season. It's only when you got no speed elsewhere where things fall apart.

As for UM he's playing with the previous regimes recruits. It's only now that his guys will be there. And yeah he's a power guy but that doesn't mean you have a receiving core like Baalke built.

Let's go to the tape and see what went wrong.

Our dbacks got smoked, like in the Falcons game.. Which I been saying was signs of a tired defense.....

The we were supposed to whoop them narrative doesn't hold. That's a team that beat Brady and company and was pretty good.

So you are saying, have trust in a guy that couldn't catch and wasn't a true wr? Just asking .

Our defense failed us miserably and the signs were there in the Falcons nfc title down 17 points... I have been consistently mentioning that comeback our offense did in that title game was wow.

Depleted bench. Our secondary was getting smoked in both games. The signs were there.

That defense was screaming for dbacks.. Healthy dbacks.. If you want to ignore it? Ok but I won't.

Our dbacks got smoke both games. The super bowl our dbacks gave up too much.. Looked foolish.. The same Jacoby Jones... Tell that to our dbacks..

The film shows it all. That defense looked exhausted, tired and beat up. The narrative that we was supposed to whoop on them, is just not there when you look at the film.

I see a defense screaming for dbacks.

Originally posted by tjd808185:

Who cares if the deep threat is only used as a decoy? Does it matter if it's Crabs, Vernon and Delanie tearing you apart underneath? You can't complain when the results are there. Now I agree you can complain about 13, 14 but that's after Baalke's personnel blunders starting wrecking everything.

No one said JH never had a say in anything. On it's own bringing in Boldin is not a terrible move. Hell it saved the 2013 offense because Crabs got hurt. Boldin stepped in and put up a 1k yard season. It's only when you got no speed elsewhere where things fall apart.

As for UM he's playing with the previous regimes recruits. It's only now that his guys will be there. And yeah he's a power guy but that doesn't mean you have a receiving core like Baalke built.

Stop 🛑 ...you stated Baalke brought in a slow boldin yet it was Jim. Great Ginn was a a decoy still was there. I never said Baalke gave him all-star WRs. I'm stating we had a talented team overall for yrs and not having one burner WR wasn't gonna make Jimbo's ground and pound chew up the lock offense ineffective. People kissing Harbs ass like he did no wrong is unbelievable lol. Dude failed to win th big games as a player and has thus far as a coach. His stubborn ass and lack of in game adjustments has cost him wins.

Jim is going into his 4th season at Michigan, you telling me it's magically gonna be some crazy pass offense stretching the field with bombs and deep speed? I call b******t....even when he had luck at Stanford they were blasting the ball with Toby Gerhart (342 rushing attempts for 1,800 yards his last yr) and piss pounding people on defense. That's Jim's MO. That's what he did in college, the pros, and what he's currently doing at Michigan.

People calling out not having a all-star receiving core as to the reason we didn't win it all are being ridiculous imo.

I've alrwdy said my peace with Baalke and him being a horrible GM, jim is a much better HC BUT to say he was perfect and had no flaws is a joke

Originally posted by Wu-5Rings:

Let's go to the tape and see what went wrong.

Our dbacks got smoked, like in the Falcons game.. Which I been saying was signs of a tired defense.....

The we were supposed to whoop them narrative doesn't hold. That's a team that beat Brady and company and was pretty good.

So you are saying, have trust in a guy that couldn't catch and wasn't a true wr? Just asking .

Our defense failed us miserably and the signs were there in the Falcons nfc title down 17 points... I have been consistently mentioning that comeback our offense did in that title game was wow.

Depleted bench. Our secondary was getting smoked in both games. The signs were there.

Tired from what? Having two weeks off? Flacco threw the ball 33 times lol. Niners were a 4.5 pt favorites in that SB, so yeah they were supposed to win. SF was tied with NE that yr with 8 pro-bowlers lol, they were the more talented team that yr.

How about you throw him the ball downfield? Proved he could catch it with NO/Carolina? Maybe throw the ball to Randy Moss? I think he's a proven downfield WR no? Had zero targets. I mean might as well throw a bunch of fades to Crabtree cause Moss isn't good at that, right? Had Kap on a qb option for a easy run in TD, oh wait our HC called a TO

We got beat on offense, defense, and ST and we were the more talented team that yr...he got out coached by his brother period. If he would have won that game, he's probably still the HC Aand Baalke probably gets the boot after a yr.

How can you point the finger at the dude that actually was the one working out of the duo? Everyone has flaws sure but his partner did s**t to help him, gave him tons of injured players. You expect me to expect him to thrive under those conditions??? No coach could thrive under those conditions or with that GM and you expect JH should have? You have to replenish, those dbacks were getting burned.

Baalke's long list of coaches couldn't work with him... It's not a mystery.. There was a huge problem and his long list of coaches that were fired. Is proof. Unworkable

Who said he was perfect or had no flaws? He had a guy that did not work with him?

Plain and Simple, remody for disaster.