Alex Smith in Free Agency

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:


on our team i have maybe seen that a handfull amount of times in a season

You are so right. Most of the time... a crazy amount of time compared to what I see from most teams.. we have a defender right on the backs of our WRs. Problem is, we can't fully determine why that is. It's likely that most times, our WRs are not commanding the same level of respect from the DBs... sometimes, it could be a throw that arrives a little later than the ideal window... sometimes that is on the WR for a poor route... sometimes it is the QB that waited a moment longer than he should have.

That is why it is so important to analyze each play... slow motion and repeated... to get a better idea.

... but yes, other teams tend to have receivers with more space to play with than we do.

From my days as playing WR, I'd say the way to beat tight coverage is to have an accurate QB who can put the ball in front of the receiver or where the receiver is going to be (lead the receiver open/timing routes) instead of having a QB who holds the ball until the receiver is open.

Since were analyzing how open the receivers are, lets also analyze how many times our receivers have been thrown to in stride and how well the ball is placed to said receiver. Does the receiver have to stop and wait for the ball, does he have to reach back for it, does he have to make some ridiculous hand motion for the QB to notice him, etc...?

We only hit receivers in stride something like once every two or three games, compared to other teams that are doing this multiple times every game. So why not play our guys tight, the QB hasn't shown the ability to burn them with timing or accuracy...

I have watched every Saints game (and so many other league games) to NOT buy this. I see receivers make spectacular catches, stretches, and jumps every game. Then, I get to see our boys drop easy ones, have them clank off hands for INTs, and watch a ball in-flight and make no grand efforts to reach out or go up for it.

All due respect, no hostility, but you're gonna have to sell that to someone else.

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:


on our team i have maybe seen that a handfull amount of times in a season

You are so right. Most of the time... a crazy amount of time compared to what I see from most teams.. we have a defender right on the backs of our WRs. Problem is, we can't fully determine why that is. It's likely that most times, our WRs are not commanding the same level of respect from the DBs... sometimes, it could be a throw that arrives a little later than the ideal window... sometimes that is on the WR for a poor route... sometimes it is the QB that waited a moment longer than he should have.

That is why it is so important to analyze each play... slow motion and repeated... to get a better idea.

... but yes, other teams tend to have receivers with more space to play with than we do.

From my days as playing WR, I'd say the way to beat tight coverage is to have an accurate QB who can put the ball in front of the receiver or where the receiver is going to be (lead the receiver open/timing routes) instead of having a QB who holds the ball until the receiver is open.

Since were analyzing how open the receivers are, lets also analyze how many times our receivers have been thrown to in stride and how well the ball is placed to said receiver. Does the receiver have to stop and wait for the ball, does he have to reach back for it, does he have to make some ridiculous hand motion for the QB to notice him, etc...?

We only hit receivers in stride something like once every two or three games, compared to other teams that are doing this multiple times every game. So why not play our guys tight, the QB hasn't shown the ability to burn them with timing or accuracy...

I have watched every Saints game (and so many other league games) to NOT buy this. I see receivers make spectacular catches, stretches, and jumps every game. Then, I get to see our boys drop easy ones, have them clank off hands for INTs, and watch a ball in-flight and make no grand efforts to reach out or go up for it.

All due respect, no hostility, but you're gonna have to sell that to someone else.

Oldman9er--your previous post makes the point that a play needs to be analyzed carefully in order to assess responsibility, and I agree. But even then the chemistry between a QB and WR can be the key as it was in the original WCO where the ball was thrown away from the defender. If the defender played behind the ball was thrown low, if fronted it was thrown high. If chemistry is the key the responsibity can be divided between the QB/WR and coaches.

Dwight Clark stated that "The Catch" was a play they practiced continuously, for years, until it was just an automatic. They used it when they needed it most. I do not see that same level of trust between the 9ers QBs and WRs because they haven't played consistently in an offense. All the changes do affect play on the field.

As for this post, I agree with you again. Other teams WRs seem to lay it on the line for the ball. That might also be related to chemistry, or lack there of. This year should see a change in that Smith has matured and Morgan seems to understand that his future is tied (at least for now) to Smith's success. Crabtree is still an unknown but I like his skill set and believe that Harbaugh and company will get the most out of him--or someone else will be playing.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:


on our team i have maybe seen that a handfull amount of times in a season

You are so right. Most of the time... a crazy amount of time compared to what I see from most teams.. we have a defender right on the backs of our WRs. Problem is, we can't fully determine why that is. It's likely that most times, our WRs are not commanding the same level of respect from the DBs... sometimes, it could be a throw that arrives a little later than the ideal window... sometimes that is on the WR for a poor route... sometimes it is the QB that waited a moment longer than he should have.

That is why it is so important to analyze each play... slow motion and repeated... to get a better idea.

... but yes, other teams tend to have receivers with more space to play with than we do.

From my days as playing WR, I'd say the way to beat tight coverage is to have an accurate QB who can put the ball in front of the receiver or where the receiver is going to be (lead the receiver open/timing routes) instead of having a QB who holds the ball until the receiver is open.

Since were analyzing how open the receivers are, lets also analyze how many times our receivers have been thrown to in stride and how well the ball is placed to said receiver. Does the receiver have to stop and wait for the ball, does he have to reach back for it, does he have to make some ridiculous hand motion for the QB to notice him, etc...?

We only hit receivers in stride something like once every two or three games, compared to other teams that are doing this multiple times every game. So why not play our guys tight, the QB hasn't shown the ability to burn them with timing or accuracy...

I have watched every Saints game (and so many other league games) to NOT buy this. I see receivers make spectacular catches, stretches, and jumps every game. Then, I get to see our boys drop easy ones, have them clank off hands for INTs, and watch a ball in-flight and make no grand efforts to reach out or go up for it.

All due respect, no hostility, but you're gonna have to sell that to someone else.

Oldman9er--your previous post makes the point that a play needs to be analyzed carefully in order to assess responsibility, and I agree. But even then the chemistry between a QB and WR can be the key as it was in the original WCO where the ball was thrown away from the defender. If the defender played behind the ball was thrown low, if fronted it was thrown high. If chemistry is the key the responsibity can be divided between the QB/WR and coaches.

Dwight Clark stated that "The Catch" was a play they practiced continuously, for years, until it was just an automatic. They used it when they needed it most. I do not see that same level of trust between the 9ers QBs and WRs because they haven't played consistently in an offense. All the changes do affect play on the field.

As for this post, I agree with you again. Other teams WRs seem to lay it on the line for the ball. That might also be related to chemistry, or lack there of. This year should see a change in that Smith has matured and Morgan seems to understand that his future is tied (at least for now) to Smith's success. Crabtree is still an unknown but I like his skill set and believe that Harbaugh and company will get the most out of him--or someone else will be playing.

niners front office and coaches under nolan/singletary and mcloughan/baalke have in my view understimated the receiver position...e.g mcloughan says things like you can get receivers in the 3rd rd, and niners only take crabtree because he falls into their laps.....i see teams like chargers and saints have guys like v.jackson, m.floyd, and m.colston who are so tall and athletic that the qb alot of times will just put the ball up there for them to go snatch from the dbs....same thing vikes and sydney rice....and niners dont evenm have a wr on their roster ho is over 6-0 tall

best niners wr in past few years has been either antonio bryant (psch job) or brandon lloyd (got good only after leaving niners)

you nee impact receivers for an impact passing game (brady has moss/wleker, manning has wayne)...niners have a prima donna with an alleged bad foot

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:


on our team i have maybe seen that a handfull amount of times in a season

You are so right. Most of the time... a crazy amount of time compared to what I see from most teams.. we have a defender right on the backs of our WRs. Problem is, we can't fully determine why that is. It's likely that most times, our WRs are not commanding the same level of respect from the DBs... sometimes, it could be a throw that arrives a little later than the ideal window... sometimes that is on the WR for a poor route... sometimes it is the QB that waited a moment longer than he should have.

That is why it is so important to analyze each play... slow motion and repeated... to get a better idea.

... but yes, other teams tend to have receivers with more space to play with than we do.

From my days as playing WR, I'd say the way to beat tight coverage is to have an accurate QB who can put the ball in front of the receiver or where the receiver is going to be (lead the receiver open/timing routes) instead of having a QB who holds the ball until the receiver is open.

Since were analyzing how open the receivers are, lets also analyze how many times our receivers have been thrown to in stride and how well the ball is placed to said receiver. Does the receiver have to stop and wait for the ball, does he have to reach back for it, does he have to make some ridiculous hand motion for the QB to notice him, etc...?

We only hit receivers in stride something like once every two or three games, compared to other teams that are doing this multiple times every game. So why not play our guys tight, the QB hasn't shown the ability to burn them with timing or accuracy...

I have watched every Saints game (and so many other league games) to NOT buy this. I see receivers make spectacular catches, stretches, and jumps every game. Then, I get to see our boys drop easy ones, have them clank off hands for INTs, and watch a ball in-flight and make no grand efforts to reach out or go up for it.

All due respect, no hostility, but you're gonna have to sell that to someone else.

Of course you don't want to accept this. It would indicate that there is a problem with your golden boy Smith. Problem is that what I speak is the truth.

Ask yourself this... Is it more likely that we have a problem with the one guy throwing the ball or the 6 or 7 guys trying to catch the ball?

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:


on our team i have maybe seen that a handfull amount of times in a season

You are so right. Most of the time... a crazy amount of time compared to what I see from most teams.. we have a defender right on the backs of our WRs. Problem is, we can't fully determine why that is. It's likely that most times, our WRs are not commanding the same level of respect from the DBs... sometimes, it could be a throw that arrives a little later than the ideal window... sometimes that is on the WR for a poor route... sometimes it is the QB that waited a moment longer than he should have.

That is why it is so important to analyze each play... slow motion and repeated... to get a better idea.

... but yes, other teams tend to have receivers with more space to play with than we do.

From my days as playing WR, I'd say the way to beat tight coverage is to have an accurate QB who can put the ball in front of the receiver or where the receiver is going to be (lead the receiver open/timing routes) instead of having a QB who holds the ball until the receiver is open.

Since were analyzing how open the receivers are, lets also analyze how many times our receivers have been thrown to in stride and how well the ball is placed to said receiver. Does the receiver have to stop and wait for the ball, does he have to reach back for it, does he have to make some ridiculous hand motion for the QB to notice him, etc...?

We only hit receivers in stride something like once every two or three games, compared to other teams that are doing this multiple times every game. So why not play our guys tight, the QB hasn't shown the ability to burn them with timing or accuracy...

I have watched every Saints game (and so many other league games) to NOT buy this. I see receivers make spectacular catches, stretches, and jumps every game. Then, I get to see our boys drop easy ones, have them clank off hands for INTs, and watch a ball in-flight and make no grand efforts to reach out or go up for it.

All due respect, no hostility, but you're gonna have to sell that to someone else.

Oldman9er--your previous post makes the point that a play needs to be analyzed carefully in order to assess responsibility, and I agree. But even then the chemistry between a QB and WR can be the key as it was in the original WCO where the ball was thrown away from the defender. If the defender played behind the ball was thrown low, if fronted it was thrown high. If chemistry is the key the responsibity can be divided between the QB/WR and coaches.

Dwight Clark stated that "The Catch" was a play they practiced continuously, for years, until it was just an automatic. They used it when they needed it most. I do not see that same level of trust between the 9ers QBs and WRs because they haven't played consistently in an offense. All the changes do affect play on the field.

As for this post, I agree with you again. Other teams WRs seem to lay it on the line for the ball. That might also be related to chemistry, or lack there of. This year should see a change in that Smith has matured and Morgan seems to understand that his future is tied (at least for now) to Smith's success. Crabtree is still an unknown but I like his skill set and believe that Harbaugh and company will get the most out of him--or someone else will be playing.

To add to this a bit... The times that I see our guys extend for the ball they get slaughtered due to poor ball placement issues.

Like you though, I do hope Jim H and co can work with whoever our QB is to get some timing and trust built...

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:


on our team i have maybe seen that a handfull amount of times in a season

You are so right. Most of the time... a crazy amount of time compared to what I see from most teams.. we have a defender right on the backs of our WRs. Problem is, we can't fully determine why that is. It's likely that most times, our WRs are not commanding the same level of respect from the DBs... sometimes, it could be a throw that arrives a little later than the ideal window... sometimes that is on the WR for a poor route... sometimes it is the QB that waited a moment longer than he should have.

That is why it is so important to analyze each play... slow motion and repeated... to get a better idea.

... but yes, other teams tend to have receivers with more space to play with than we do.

From my days as playing WR, I'd say the way to beat tight coverage is to have an accurate QB who can put the ball in front of the receiver or where the receiver is going to be (lead the receiver open/timing routes) instead of having a QB who holds the ball until the receiver is open.

Since were analyzing how open the receivers are, lets also analyze how many times our receivers have been thrown to in stride and how well the ball is placed to said receiver. Does the receiver have to stop and wait for the ball, does he have to reach back for it, does he have to make some ridiculous hand motion for the QB to notice him, etc...?

We only hit receivers in stride something like once every two or three games, compared to other teams that are doing this multiple times every game. So why not play our guys tight, the QB hasn't shown the ability to burn them with timing or accuracy...

I have watched every Saints game (and so many other league games) to NOT buy this. I see receivers make spectacular catches, stretches, and jumps every game. Then, I get to see our boys drop easy ones, have them clank off hands for INTs, and watch a ball in-flight and make no grand efforts to reach out or go up for it.

All due respect, no hostility, but you're gonna have to sell that to someone else.

Oldman9er--your previous post makes the point that a play needs to be analyzed carefully in order to assess responsibility, and I agree. But even then the chemistry between a QB and WR can be the key as it was in the original WCO where the ball was thrown away from the defender. If the defender played behind the ball was thrown low, if fronted it was thrown high. If chemistry is the key the responsibity can be divided between the QB/WR and coaches.

Dwight Clark stated that "The Catch" was a play they practiced continuously, for years, until it was just an automatic. They used it when they needed it most. I do not see that same level of trust between the 9ers QBs and WRs because they haven't played consistently in an offense. All the changes do affect play on the field.

As for this post, I agree with you again. Other teams WRs seem to lay it on the line for the ball. That might also be related to chemistry, or lack there of. This year should see a change in that Smith has matured and Morgan seems to understand that his future is tied (at least for now) to Smith's success. Crabtree is still an unknown but I like his skill set and believe that Harbaugh and company will get the most out of him--or someone else will be playing.

Receivers are more likely to lay-out for balls thrown by a QB they trust. I have played both WR and QB and believe me, it is not fun to run a slant or even a curl and sit and wait for even a split second longer for the QB to see the throw and release the ball. Why? All I'm thinking is that the DB or LB is quickly closing the gap I just created from running the route. You don't cringe for the hit but that half a second time to think be standing still or running that slant and staring for the ball to arrive allows the defense to predict what is going to happen. 1 second feels like 10 seconds in that span.

Now do this for a QB who is continuously late and off the mark on basic throws that cause a WR to jump in the air or take a catch into big hits and WR's will lessen their attempts to lay out in traffic.

It does go the other way when I have thrown a perfect ball and it goes in and out of the bread basket of a WR.

I will say one thing: the dropped balls on perfect throws occur FAR less than repeated late or inaccurate throws by Smith.

I think they go hand-in-and, that one causes to lose focus in affecting the other.

Originally posted by Joecool:


Receivers are more likely to lay-out for balls thrown by a QB they trust.

I can expect and accept such a mentality from kids on the playground, but not from pro WRs that get paid the big bucks to make plays. If they do have this mentality, they should be benched until their head is right. There are lots of hungry receiver options that WILL play hard regardless of the QB's identity.

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by Joecool:


Receivers are more likely to lay-out for balls thrown by a QB they trust.

I can expect and accept such a mentality from kids on the playground, but not from pro WRs that get paid the big bucks to make plays. If they do have this mentality, they should be benched until their head is right. There are lots of hungry receiver options that WILL play hard regardless of the QB's identity.

Same can be said for QB's. There are QB's who will release the ball on a tight throw to receivers they trust but will not do it to receivers they don't trust.

Doesn't look like there is a lot time for this thread.

Originally posted by BHulman:
Doesn't look like there is a lot time for this thread.

Good point. I hope that we can lock it up soon.

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by Joecool:


Receivers are more likely to lay-out for balls thrown by a QB they trust.

I can expect and accept such a mentality from kids on the playground, but not from pro WRs that get paid the big bucks to make plays. If they do have this mentality, they should be benched until their head is right. There are lots of hungry receiver options that WILL play hard regardless of the QB's identity.

That sounds like Singletary thinking right there. Why don't we ship all the receivers out cause their not "our kind of players"...

Reality and Ideology are two separate things.

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by Joecool:


Receivers are more likely to lay-out for balls thrown by a QB they trust.

I can expect and accept such a mentality from kids on the playground, but not from pro WRs that get paid the big bucks to make plays. If they do have this mentality, they should be benched until their head is right. There are lots of hungry receiver options that WILL play hard regardless of the QB's identity.

That sounds like Singletary thinking right there. Why don't we ship all the receivers out cause their not "our kind of players"...

Reality and Ideology are two separate things.

Nonsense, as far as I am concerned. To each their own on their "e-coaching stances, but if you are not gonna give your all, then GTFO and I will utilize another player that wants it more and will give their all.

The NFL isn't a place for such childish grudges and selfish preferences. If your QB... whoever your QB is... throws the ball anywhere in your vicinity? You catch the fu*king thing. You may have to scuff yourself up to do it, but you do it or you go wear a cheerleader outfit on the sideline with the rest of the gals.

Originally posted by Joecool:


"Receivers are more likely to lay-out for balls thrown by a QB they trust."

"It does go the other way when I have thrown a perfect ball and it goes in and out of the bread basket of a WR."

"I will say one thing: the dropped balls on perfect throws occur FAR less than repeated late or inaccurate throws by Smith."

I think they go hand-in-and, that one causes to lose focus in affecting the other.

It is true that it goes both ways but not giving effort is not an option. Smith gets killed every game, as do most QBs, so he should expect WRs to put themselves out to get to the ball...where ever it is. He does need to protect the WRs more by throwing away from coverage but that isn't always possible and takes time to develop chemistry.

There have been some very mediocre athletes who were good to great WRs because they were smart and played all out. Can you imagine Biletnikoff taking a play off? Jerry Rice? They had very different skill sets but both were nonstop during games. Rice became the best of all time by believing that any ball in the air belonged to him. He transitioned from Montana to Young, and definately had a preference, but it didn't get in the way of his on field play.

I really see Smith as a much better QB than you do. I do not see as many bad passes. He occasionally throws late or behind but so do the best in the business. I hope the late throws can be reduced by the receivers and QB being on the same page. Wish Crabtree could have been running routes at the informal camps just to get a feel for Smith's passes and for Smith to see his tendencies. The more they toss the ball around the better.

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by Joecool:


Receivers are more likely to lay-out for balls thrown by a QB they trust.

I can expect and accept such a mentality from kids on the playground, but not from pro WRs that get paid the big bucks to make plays. If they do have this mentality, they should be benched until their head is right. There are lots of hungry receiver options that WILL play hard regardless of the QB's identity.

That sounds like Singletary thinking right there. Why don't we ship all the receivers out cause their not "our kind of players"...

Reality and Ideology are two separate things.

Nonsense, as far as I am concerned. To each their own on their "e-coaching stances, but if you are not gonna give your all, then GTFO and I will utilize another player that wants it more and will give their all.

The NFL isn't a place for such childish grudges and selfish preferences. If your QB... whoever your QB is... throws the ball anywhere in your vicinity? You catch the fu*king thing. You may have to scuff yourself up to do it, but you do it or you go wear a cheerleader outfit on the sideline with the rest of the gals.

Obviously you never played the position... Stretching out for the ball and exposing your midsection for a direct hit is just plain dumb if it doesn't have to be done. What good are you to your team if you're on IR, if you make the catch and get your ribs smashed? Now if it's 4th down and the game is on the line you do it; but, if its 2nd an 1 and your QB hangs it out there, you don't try for that play if you're going to get drilled hard.

It's not about making the play or not. It's about living to fight another day (or play). If it's for a key play in the game then sure, you sacrifice your body for the good of the team or if your QB has an errant throw once or twice; but, if it's just about every throw and your QB is killing your out there, then you're going to let some of those slide...

Originally posted by D_Niner:


Obviously you never played the position... Stretching out for the ball and exposing your midsection for a direct hit is just plain dumb if it doesn't have to be done. What good are you to your team if you're on IR, if you make the catch and get your ribs smashed? Now if it's 4th down and the game is on the line you do it; but, if its 2nd an 1 and your QB hangs it out there, you don't try for that play if you're going to get drilled hard.

It's not about making the play or not. It's about living to fight another day (or play). If it's for a key play in the game then sure, you sacrifice your body for the good of the team or if your QB has an errant throw once or twice; but, if it's just about every throw and your QB is killing your out there, then you're going to let some of those slide...

Ridiculous. I was a WR for my HS and college. I play hard and catch everything I have a shot at. I was labeled Chrebet Jr. and I took my injuries and played through most. Like I said, to each his own, but if you are a WR and don't give your all, then you would not be treated well or keep your job on my team.

"Living to fight another day" I can't even comment to as I want to, as the mods would have a field day on me. That is an attitude that I find unacceptable. I mean, if we are talking about catapulting ones self into the bleachers just to catch a ball, then sure... I get it. But on the field, you catch everything that is remotely in your reach. I can't believe this is even a subject of debate...