Do we fix the oline in the draft or free agency

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by GoFD74:

Originally posted by ninerfan21:

Originally posted by GoFD74:
Since going primarily to a shotgun formation in the 2nd half of the GB game, Smith has been sacked exactly 1 time (and this is with Sims and Snyder as our tackles).

So in his first 16 quarters of play under a traditional set, he was sacked 13 times...but the last 10 primarily in shotgun, he's been sacked once.

So do we really need to spend a high pick (or big-time free agent $$$) on an OT, or did we just need to make a change in philosophy?

Come on Ghost, you know we do, not necessarily just for pass protection, but the run blocking has been horrendous too. Also you know sacks are misleading, the defense's have still been getting pressure.

Every team gets pressure...this is the NFL, not Conference USA. The key is, are we avoiding sacks, getting yardage and scoring points with this new approach? The answer is yes.

Now, we're not running the ball well (especially up the middle), but you really don't think that opposing defenses and their strategy of stopping the run against us has anything to do with that???

I'm not saying we don't need to change personnel, I'm merely saying that there's more to our offensive line issues (especially in the run game) than just bad blocking or a lack of talent. It's never quite that simple.

Baas and Wragge are useless, I'm banking on Mankins ASAP.

Hard to argue with that...in fact, I think a case can be made for LG being a greater need than RT.

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by GoFD74:

Originally posted by ninerfan21:

Originally posted by GoFD74:
Since going primarily to a shotgun formation in the 2nd half of the GB game, Smith has been sacked exactly 1 time (and this is with Sims and Snyder as our tackles).

So in his first 16 quarters of play under a traditional set, he was sacked 13 times...but the last 10 primarily in shotgun, he's been sacked once.

So do we really need to spend a high pick (or big-time free agent $$$) on an OT, or did we just need to make a change in philosophy?

Come on Ghost, you know we do, not necessarily just for pass protection, but the run blocking has been horrendous too. Also you know sacks are misleading, the defense's have still been getting pressure.

Every team gets pressure...this is the NFL, not Conference USA. The key is, are we avoiding sacks, getting yardage and scoring points with this new approach? The answer is yes.

Now, we're not running the ball well (especially up the middle), but you really don't think that opposing defenses and their strategy of stopping the run against us has anything to do with that???

I'm not saying we don't need to change personnel, I'm merely saying that there's more to our offensive line issues (especially in the run game) than just bad blocking or a lack of talent. It's never quite that simple.

Baas and Wragge are useless, I'm banking on Mankins ASAP.

I very, very, very highly doubt we even sniff Mankins, unless a new CBA gets done.

Originally posted by PA9erFaithful:

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by GoFD74:

Originally posted by ninerfan21:

Originally posted by GoFD74:
Since going primarily to a shotgun formation in the 2nd half of the GB game, Smith has been sacked exactly 1 time (and this is with Sims and Snyder as our tackles).

So in his first 16 quarters of play under a traditional set, he was sacked 13 times...but the last 10 primarily in shotgun, he's been sacked once.

So do we really need to spend a high pick (or big-time free agent $$$) on an OT, or did we just need to make a change in philosophy?

Come on Ghost, you know we do, not necessarily just for pass protection, but the run blocking has been horrendous too. Also you know sacks are misleading, the defense's have still been getting pressure.

Every team gets pressure...this is the NFL, not Conference USA. The key is, are we avoiding sacks, getting yardage and scoring points with this new approach? The answer is yes.

Now, we're not running the ball well (especially up the middle), but you really don't think that opposing defenses and their strategy of stopping the run against us has anything to do with that???

I'm not saying we don't need to change personnel, I'm merely saying that there's more to our offensive line issues (especially in the run game) than just bad blocking or a lack of talent. It's never quite that simple.

Baas and Wragge are useless, I'm banking on Mankins ASAP.

I very, very, very highly doubt we even sniff Mankins, unless a new CBA gets done.

If memory serves right the rumors have been NE will let him walk. Considering Scotty is running out of time, I think he goes big this year.

Think that rumor was started here, lol
NE does have history of lettin FA that are going to be too expensive walk

I dont think they let Mankins walk though, he's one of the best OG's in the league
and Brady is still in his prime. I bet they sign or tag him

But a few other LG who i like could be out there, R.Sims, Sea, D.Latui, Ariz and D.Colledge, GB

and i agree, LG is the higher priority "fix" in free agency

[ Edited by cools on Dec 8, 2009 at 23:55:36 ]

a rwalistic f/a target i.e a guy who actually might hit the open market might be the colts charlie johnson ...i think he beat out tony ugoh for left tackle position in indy

Looks like we need a guard and a tackle ... get 1 with one of our first rounders and sign the other in FA.

Championship teams build their line through the draft> Bad, desperate teams build their line through overpaying guys who's best years are behind him in FA.

Originally posted by jojomellon:
Championship teams build their line through the draft> Bad, desperate teams build their line through overpaying guys who's best years are behind him in FA.

Not really. The Steelers probably had one first rounder on their o-line last year (and I'm not even sure about that), the Colts had one when they won it (Tarik Glenn), and he retired, leaving them no 1st rounders on this year's undefeated team.

The top rushing team in the NFL right now has two 1st rounders on their starting o-line (Ferguson and Mangold), but they also have two veteran free agent signees (Faneca and Woody). The best offense in the league right now (Saints) don't even have a 1st rounder on their line. The 3rd best offense in the NFL (Dallas) has two key free agent signings (Davis and Kosier...make it 3 if Colombo was healthy), and no 1st rounders that they've drafted on their starting o-line.

On the flip-side, the worse offense in the NFL (Browns) has two blue-chip 1st rounders on their starting o-line (Thomas and Mack), and they suck.

So teams find different ways to make their offensive line work well, and it doesn't always mean top picks (or just/only building through the draft).

Originally posted by GoFD74:

Originally posted by jojomellon:
Championship teams build their line through the draft> Bad, desperate teams build their line through overpaying guys who's best years are behind him in FA.

Not really. The Steelers probably had one first rounder on their o-line last year (and I'm not even sure about that), the Colts had one when they won it (Tarik Glenn), and he retired, leaving them no 1st rounders on this year's undefeated team.

The top rushing team in the NFL right now has two 1st rounders on their starting o-line (Ferguson and Mangold), but they also have two veteran free agent signees (Faneca and Woody). The best offense in the league right now (Saints) don't even have a 1st rounder on their line. The 3rd best offense in the NFL (Dallas) has two key free agent signings (Davis and Kosier...make it 3 if Colombo was healthy), and no 1st rounders that they've drafted on their starting o-line.

On the flip-side, the worse offense in the NFL (Browns) has two blue-chip 1st rounders on their starting o-line (Thomas and Mack), and they suck.

So teams find different ways to make their offensive line work well, and it doesn't always mean top picks (or just/only building through the draft).

Who was saying anything about rounds? You're making my case for me, the best teams have drafted their linemen, not signed old trash that other teams let go. The Browns' line is actually very good.

Originally posted by GoFD74:

Originally posted by jojomellon:
Championship teams build their line through the draft> Bad, desperate teams build their line through overpaying guys who's best years are behind him in FA.

Not really. The Steelers probably had one first rounder on their o-line last year (and I'm not even sure about that), the Colts had one when they won it (Tarik Glenn), and he retired, leaving them no 1st rounders on this year's undefeated team.

The top rushing team in the NFL right now has two 1st rounders on their starting o-line (Ferguson and Mangold), but they also have two veteran free agent signees (Faneca and Woody). The best offense in the league right now (Saints) don't even have a 1st rounder on their line. The 3rd best offense in the NFL (Dallas) has two key free agent signings (Davis and Kosier...make it 3 if Colombo was healthy), and no 1st rounders that they've drafted on their starting o-line.

On the flip-side, the worse offense in the NFL (Browns) has two blue-chip 1st rounders on their starting o-line (Thomas and Mack), and they suck.

So teams find different ways to make their offensive line work well, and it doesn't always mean top picks (or just/only building through the draft).

Great point Ghost. I think more than ever Scot, or hopefully a new gm, needs to figure out what our philosophy will be and stay with it. Winning teams have a direction and stay with it. They only look at BPA's(draft, trade or FA) that fit what they do instead of wasting picks and money on players who don't fit that mold.
When a team goes from a running team to a passing team in one season thats a sign of a team that doesn't have direction. We never should have re-signed Hill. We should have signed a QB similar to Smith so then it wouldn't have been a big transition no matter who was starting. Scot should have known this was a passing team long ago and picked up players to fit.

Originally posted by miked1978:
both would be nice.

Originally posted by Ronnie49Lott:

Originally posted by GoFD74:

Originally posted by jojomellon:
Championship teams build their line through the draft> Bad, desperate teams build their line through overpaying guys who's best years are behind him in FA.

Not really. The Steelers probably had one first rounder on their o-line last year (and I'm not even sure about that), the Colts had one when they won it (Tarik Glenn), and he retired, leaving them no 1st rounders on this year's undefeated team.

The top rushing team in the NFL right now has two 1st rounders on their starting o-line (Ferguson and Mangold), but they also have two veteran free agent signees (Faneca and Woody). The best offense in the league right now (Saints) don't even have a 1st rounder on their line. The 3rd best offense in the NFL (Dallas) has two key free agent signings (Davis and Kosier...make it 3 if Colombo was healthy), and no 1st rounders that they've drafted on their starting o-line.

On the flip-side, the worse offense in the NFL (Browns) has two blue-chip 1st rounders on their starting o-line (Thomas and Mack), and they suck.

So teams find different ways to make their offensive line work well, and it doesn't always mean top picks (or just/only building through the draft).

Great point Ghost. I think more than ever Scot, or hopefully a new gm, needs to figure out what our philosophy will be and stay with it. Winning teams have a direction and stay with it. They only look at BPA's(draft, trade or FA) that fit what they do instead of wasting picks and money on players who don't fit that mold.
When a team goes from a running team to a passing team in one season thats a sign of a team that doesn't have direction. We never should have re-signed Hill. We should have signed a QB similar to Smith so then it wouldn't have been a big transition no matter who was starting. Scot should have known this was a passing team long ago and picked up players to fit.

With our personal, I think the Eagles offensive system may suit us greatly if we can add some speed to our WR unit.

Originally posted by jojomellon:

Originally posted by GoFD74:

Originally posted by jojomellon:
Championship teams build their line through the draft> Bad, desperate teams build their line through overpaying guys who's best years are behind him in FA.

Not really. The Steelers probably had one first rounder on their o-line last year (and I'm not even sure about that), the Colts had one when they won it (Tarik Glenn), and he retired, leaving them no 1st rounders on this year's undefeated team.

The top rushing team in the NFL right now has two 1st rounders on their starting o-line (Ferguson and Mangold), but they also have two veteran free agent signees (Faneca and Woody). The best offense in the league right now (Saints) don't even have a 1st rounder on their line. The 3rd best offense in the NFL (Dallas) has two key free agent signings (Davis and Kosier...make it 3 if Colombo was healthy), and no 1st rounders that they've drafted on their starting o-line.

On the flip-side, the worse offense in the NFL (Browns) has two blue-chip 1st rounders on their starting o-line (Thomas and Mack), and they suck.

So teams find different ways to make their offensive line work well, and it doesn't always mean top picks (or just/only building through the draft).

Who was saying anything about rounds? You're making my case for me, the best teams have drafted their linemen, not signed old trash that other teams let go. The Browns' line is actually very good.

I'm not making your case for you. I'm saying, there are different ways to go about building a great offensive line, and simply drafting o-lineman isn't the only way (see examples above). That said, I brought up rounds because it shows that you also don't have to use high picks exclusively to build a solid o-line (I know you weren't saying that...I was).

My point is, teams have used the draft, or mostly free agency or a combination of the two to build solid o-lines throughout the years. So there's no "one" right way to do it. IMO, it's more about the scheme and the play of the QB than having a bunch of stud o-lineman...you can get away with having ok lineman, if your scheme leverages their skills and your QB knows how to read defenses quickly/properly.

Lastly, you say the Browns offensive line is actually very good. Given their offensive stats below, what is it about the Browns o-line that makes you say that they're "actually very good":

2009 Cleveland Browns offensive stats
Total First Downs - 171 - League rank: 31
First Downs Rushing - 59 - League rank: 23
First Downs Passing - 100 - League rank: 29
Third Downs Conversions - 54 - League rank: 25
Fourth Down Conversions - 7 - League rank: 11
Total Offensive Plays - 722 - League rank: 26
Total Offensive Yards - 2909 - League rank: 32
Avg Yards per Offensive Play - 4.03 - League rank: 32
Total Touchdowns - 13 - League rank: 30
Total Rushing Plays - 317 - League rank: 19
Total Rushing Yards - 1187 - League rank: 23
Avg Yards per Rushing Play - 3.7 - League rank: 31
Rushing Touchdowns - 3 - League rank: 31
Total Passing Plays - 378 - League rank: 25
Total Passing Yards - 1722 - League rank: 31
Avg Yards per Passing Play - 4.56 - League rank: 32
Passing Touchdowns - 10 - League rank: 28
Sacks Allowed - 27 - League rank: 13th worst

[ Edited by GoFD74 on Dec 10, 2009 at 11:13:17 ]

Usually in free agency you have to overpay. In the draft it's hit or miss usually if you don't use a 1st or 2nd round pick. I think either can be good this year because there are a lot of young lineman hitting the market, but that's going to demand a lot of money. A lot is on the line next season. 49ers have to win or you are going to see a lot of people gone.

So, I see a lot of mocks and predictions that we'll let Baas walk and sign Mankins or Neal in the offseason. Don't get me wrong, I wanted Mankins in 2004 Draft, but I have a feeling we may draft guard instead of picking up one in FA.

This is mainly because of McCoughlan's past history with Guards. First, he was part of the group that let Hutchinson leave Seattle (and they haven't had a running game since). Second, he let Smiley go (and he has been lights out in a Top-10 rushing offense in Miami) b/c he thought it was too much for a guard.

I hope he finally puts down some money on investing on the interior line, but wouldn't be surprised if he focuses on OG in the draft (i.e. Iupati from Idaho, Johnson from Alabama, etc) and signs Baas to a two year backup deal after no one else signs him.

Just wondering how you all think...