Suh vs Dorsey?

Originally posted by TX9R:
I remember a few years ago Glenn Dorsey was billed as a can't miss, dominant DT. Haven't heard a peep about him since. Now Suh is getting similar hype. Not knocking him, but how do the 2 compare, as coming out of college?

Dorsey seemed (this is not a technical term) more like a fatty, while Suh seems a little better built. Also Dorsey is now playing DE in a 3-4 when he should be a DT in a 4-3.

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by TX9R:
I remember a few years ago Glenn Dorsey was billed as a can't miss, dominant DT. Haven't heard a peep about him since. Now Suh is getting similar hype. Not knocking him, but how do the 2 compare, as coming out of college?

Dorsey seemed (this is not a technical term) more like a fatty, while Suh seems a little better built. Also Dorsey is now playing DE in a 3-4 when he should be a DT in a 4-3.

Interesting, GB is doing the same with Raji, haven't heard much about him either.

Originally posted by TX9R:

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by TX9R:
I remember a few years ago Glenn Dorsey was billed as a can't miss, dominant DT. Haven't heard a peep about him since. Now Suh is getting similar hype. Not knocking him, but how do the 2 compare, as coming out of college?

Dorsey seemed (this is not a technical term) more like a fatty, while Suh seems a little better built. Also Dorsey is now playing DE in a 3-4 when he should be a DT in a 4-3.

Interesting, GB is doing the same with Raji, haven't heard much about him either.

To go one step further with that moving Aaron Kampman to OLB has been a disaster for them as well.
------G--GS-Comb-Total-Ast-Sck
2009 9 9 42 30 12 3.5
2008 16 16 62 47 15 9.5
2007 15 15 64 48 16 12.0
2006 16 16 89 59 30 15.5

His sack production has fallen off tremendously

Yea Dorsey is playing out of position in KC. think about it they have spent two top 10 picks on 3-4 DE's. That's not smart imo. And to be honest it's extremely hard to figure out which d lineman are gonna work with a top notch motor once they hit the league. I think that's the main thing. These guys need to be pushed and motivated harder than any other position. I don't know why but it just seems that way. I haven't heard a peep out of Gaines Adams, or Jamal Anderson. It's just hard to tell. That was the one good thing about looking at Orakpo then looking at Maybin. nothing against Maybin but you could see that Orakpo was the type of guy that was gonna work hard. Thus Maybin hasn't done much while Orakpo has a good chance at getting double digit sacks as a rookie.

Originally posted by lamontb:
Yea Dorsey is playing out of position in KC. think about it they have spent two top 10 picks on 3-4 DE's. That's not smart imo. And to be honest it's extremely hard to figure out which d lineman are gonna work with a top notch motor once they hit the league. I think that's the main thing. These guys need to be pushed and motivated harder than any other position. I don't know why but it just seems that way. I haven't heard a peep out of Gaines Adams, or Jamal Anderson. It's just hard to tell. That was the one good thing about looking at Orakpo then looking at Maybin. nothing against Maybin but you could see that Orakpo was the type of guy that was gonna work hard. Thus Maybin hasn't done much while Orakpo has a good chance at getting double digit sacks as a rookie.

Good points and it reinforces what I've heard about LSU players in general, just not very hard working it seems. In fact all those guys you just listed all played in the SEC did they not? Makes you wonder, what is it about Dlineman from there that they haven't worked out lately? Is it the speed at the other positions that makes them look better than they might be?

Originally posted by lamontb:
Yea Dorsey is playing out of position in KC. think about it they have spent two top 10 picks on 3-4 DE's. That's not smart imo. And to be honest it's extremely hard to figure out which d lineman are gonna work with a top notch motor once they hit the league. I think that's the main thing. These guys need to be pushed and motivated harder than any other position. I don't know why but it just seems that way. I haven't heard a peep out of Gaines Adams, or Jamal Anderson. It's just hard to tell. That was the one good thing about looking at Orakpo then looking at Maybin. nothing against Maybin but you could see that Orakpo was the type of guy that was gonna work hard. Thus Maybin hasn't done much while Orakpo has a good chance at getting double digit sacks as a rookie.

When you look at how Pioli originally built the Patriots he used his first rounder on DE/NT for 3 straight seasons. Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. It's a long term building plan. KC is going to go have a NT hard this offseason and I expect them to trade Dorsey because he clearly doesn't fit in the 3-4.

Originally posted by tjd808185:

Originally posted by lamontb:
Yea Dorsey is playing out of position in KC. think about it they have spent two top 10 picks on 3-4 DE's. That's not smart imo. And to be honest it's extremely hard to figure out which d lineman are gonna work with a top notch motor once they hit the league. I think that's the main thing. These guys need to be pushed and motivated harder than any other position. I don't know why but it just seems that way. I haven't heard a peep out of Gaines Adams, or Jamal Anderson. It's just hard to tell. That was the one good thing about looking at Orakpo then looking at Maybin. nothing against Maybin but you could see that Orakpo was the type of guy that was gonna work hard. Thus Maybin hasn't done much while Orakpo has a good chance at getting double digit sacks as a rookie.

When you look at how Pioli originally built the Patriots he used his first rounder on DE/NT for 3 straight seasons. Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. It's a long term building plan. KC is going to go have a NT hard this offseason and I expect them to trade Dorsey because he clearly doesn't fit in the 3-4.

Actually, it was 3 out of 4 (Ben Watson was in the middle, in fact, they took a TE in top 3 rnds each year in that period, none have panned out)
tHE BIG DIFFERENCE THOUGH IS THAT NONE OF THOSE GUYS WERE TOP 5 PICKS, AND sEYMOUR WAS THE ONLY TOP 10.,. damn caps. I wonder if he hasn't reached in trying to duplicate those NE picks, he definately did last year.
Either way, Suh looks to be dominant and maybe the best player in the draft. But then so did Dorsey. I guess we'll see.

Originally posted by TX9R:

Originally posted by tjd808185:

Originally posted by lamontb:
Yea Dorsey is playing out of position in KC. think about it they have spent two top 10 picks on 3-4 DE's. That's not smart imo. And to be honest it's extremely hard to figure out which d lineman are gonna work with a top notch motor once they hit the league. I think that's the main thing. These guys need to be pushed and motivated harder than any other position. I don't know why but it just seems that way. I haven't heard a peep out of Gaines Adams, or Jamal Anderson. It's just hard to tell. That was the one good thing about looking at Orakpo then looking at Maybin. nothing against Maybin but you could see that Orakpo was the type of guy that was gonna work hard. Thus Maybin hasn't done much while Orakpo has a good chance at getting double digit sacks as a rookie.

When you look at how Pioli originally built the Patriots he used his first rounder on DE/NT for 3 straight seasons. Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. It's a long term building plan. KC is going to go have a NT hard this offseason and I expect them to trade Dorsey because he clearly doesn't fit in the 3-4.

Actually, it was 3 out of 4 (Ben Watson was in the middle, in fact, they took a TE in top 3 rnds each year in that period, none have panned out)
tHE BIG DIFFERENCE THOUGH IS THAT NONE OF THOSE GUYS WERE TOP 5 PICKS, AND sEYMOUR WAS THE ONLY TOP 10.,. damn caps. I wonder if he hasn't reached in trying to duplicate those NE picks, he definately did last year.
Either way, Suh looks to be dominant and maybe the best player in the draft. But then so did Dorsey. I guess we'll see.

Actually there's 2 huge differences. Dorsey wasn't a Pioli pick and was never in his long term plans. He doesn't come close to fitting in a 3-4. When you at Pioli's philosophy on building a team it's all starts on the defensive line. That's not a dumb philosophy by any stretch of the imagination.

[ Edited by tjd808185 on Dec 4, 2009 at 09:29:44 ]

Originally posted by TX9R:

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by TX9R:
I remember a few years ago Glenn Dorsey was billed as a can't miss, dominant DT. Haven't heard a peep about him since. Now Suh is getting similar hype. Not knocking him, but how do the 2 compare, as coming out of college?

Dorsey seemed (this is not a technical term) more like a fatty, while Suh seems a little better built. Also Dorsey is now playing DE in a 3-4 when he should be a DT in a 4-3.

Interesting, GB is doing the same with Raji, haven't heard much about him either.

Raji is listed as a DE in their 3-4 scheme but he switches to NT from time to time. He's also not a starter yet, but I'm sure he'll be starting next year.

DT are not know for their first year impact. It takes these guys a few years to reach their full potential. So don't write off Dorsey, Balmer, Raji or any other DT with only a few years under their belt.

[ Edited by jta854 on Dec 4, 2009 at 11:17:02 ]

I think too much is being made of where Dorsey is now. Seems like the better question (and I think the intent of the OP) is how they would have compared as pro prospects - without the benefit of hindsight.

That's a tough one. I think Dorsey may have been a bit shorter/stouter/stronger and Suh is a bit quicker off the snap. But Dorsey didn't look slow in college and Suh certainly doesn't look weak. Both look like top 3-5 talents as 43 DT's to me.

I believe Dorsey had some knee issues, though, while I am not aware of any injury concerns for Suh. Something like that might make Suh the more valuable prospect.

Originally posted by Overkill:
I think too much is being made of where Dorsey is now. Seems like the better question (and I think the intent of the OP) is how they would have compared as pro prospects - without the benefit of hindsight.

That's a tough one. I think Dorsey may have been a bit shorter/stouter/stronger and Suh is a bit quicker off the snap. But Dorsey didn't look slow in college and Suh certainly doesn't look weak. Both look like top 3-5 talents as 43 DT's to me.

I believe Dorsey had some knee issues, though, while I am not aware of any injury concerns for Suh. Something like that might make Suh the more valuable prospect.

Thanks, that was my intent, to compare. You're right about the knee thing, but IIRC that happened in the last handful of games for Dorsey. Before that, he was an absolute beast. I also agree about NTs taking a long time to develop, look at Franklin this year, and I always bring up Ted Washington, who we got rid of just before he became an All-Pro.

College NT's are about the most difficult to project at the NFL level. When they do make the transition to the NFL it often takes a few years. The bust factor is very high for NT's though.

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by TX9R:

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by TX9R:
I remember a few years ago Glenn Dorsey was billed as a can't miss, dominant DT. Haven't heard a peep about him since. Now Suh is getting similar hype. Not knocking him, but how do the 2 compare, as coming out of college?

Dorsey seemed (this is not a technical term) more like a fatty, while Suh seems a little better built. Also Dorsey is now playing DE in a 3-4 when he should be a DT in a 4-3.

Interesting, GB is doing the same with Raji, haven't heard much about him either.

To go one step further with that moving Aaron Kampman to OLB has been a disaster for them as well.
------G--GS-Comb-Total-Ast-Sck
2009 9 9 42 30 12 3.5
2008 16 16 62 47 15 9.5
2007 15 15 64 48 16 12.0
2006 16 16 89 59 30 15.5

His sack production has fallen off tremendously

It may have been a disaster for Kampman - but for the defense as a whole, they went from 20th last year to 2nd so far this year. That's a huge swing.