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2012-13 General NBA Discussion Thread

Originally posted by ImaMod:
I just don't think Howard compares to the elite centers of the 90s. Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, Robinson..
The thought of Dwight howard going against Hakeem or Robinson like they did against eachother in 1995 makes me lol.

Hakeem and Robinson went against each other in the respect that they faced off in the playoffs, but Dream took the Admiral behind the woodshed in that series and beat the hell out of him. But I get you. Personally...I'd rate Dwight 4th behind Olajuwon, Shaq, and Robinson, but better than Ewing and Mourning. The first four had better post games than Howard, but you can make the case that Howard's the best combination of defense & rebounding in that group as well.
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by ImaMod:
I just don't think Howard compares to the elite centers of the 90s. Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, Robinson..
The thought of Dwight howard going against Hakeem or Robinson like they did against eachother in 1995 makes me lol.

Hakeem and Robinson went against each other in the respect that they faced off in the playoffs, but Dream took the Admiral behind the woodshed in that series and beat the hell out of him. But I get you. Personally...I'd rate Dwight 4th behind Olajuwon, Shaq, and Robinson, but better than Ewing and Mourning. The first four had better post games than Howard, but you can make the case that Howard's the best combination of defense & rebounding in that group as well.

Dwight at 4 or 5 on that list sounds about right.
Originally posted by StOnEy333:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by ImaMod:
I just don't think Howard compares to the elite centers of the 90s. Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, Robinson..
The thought of Dwight howard going against Hakeem or Robinson like they did against eachother in 1995 makes me lol.

Hakeem and Robinson went against each other in the respect that they faced off in the playoffs, but Dream took the Admiral behind the woodshed in that series and beat the hell out of him. But I get you. Personally...I'd rate Dwight 4th behind Olajuwon, Shaq, and Robinson, but better than Ewing and Mourning. The first four had better post games than Howard, but you can make the case that Howard's the best combination of defense & rebounding in that group as well.

Dwight at 4 or 5 on that list sounds about right.

I was never a Ewing fan. Excellent player, but got more press than he deserved because he was in NY, and his teams always played better without him.
Howard is a twig compared to those doots they'd just throw their weight at him
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
So, Carmelo won't make HOF...

Hubie won coach of the year because no one expected them to make the playoffs. Also, that's not Gasol's only achievement. If you read rest of my post, he won 2 championships, and would have likely won 2 gold medals with pretty damn good stats to go along with.

He is a HOFer

Carmelo's a 25ppg guy.

Gasol won 2 championships just like Chris Bosh has won 1.

It was in response to a comment. 'Melo will be a HOFer.

Gasol played a HUGE role in the two championships. This is not close.

Gasol stats:
1st championship: 18.3ppg, 10.8rebs, 2.5 apg, 2 bpg, 58% fg
2nd championship: 19.6ppg, 11.1rebs, 3.5 apg, 2.1bpg, 54% fg

Bosh stats:
14ppg, 7.8rebs, 0.6 apg, 1bpg, 49.3%

Gasol stats in championship runs are pretty damn good. He shot 58% during the first run...and then 53.9% the next year...those are amazing numbers. IMO, he's a HOFer based on his NBA career. He does so many things well.
Originally posted by crzy:
He's in the latter half of his career. He's past his prime.

I think he will be entering his prime. He is pretty young.

Lebron and 'Melo are 27 and 28...can't consider them old.
[ Edited by 49ersMyLife on Oct 10, 2012 at 5:01 AM ]
Originally posted by marshniners24:
Howard is a twig compared to those doots they'd just throw their weight at him

The only one that was bigger/stronger than him was Shaq.

David Robinson, lol.
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
It was in response to a comment. 'Melo will be a HOFer.

Gasol played a HUGE role in the two championships. This is not close.

Gasol stats:
1st championship: 18.3ppg, 10.8rebs, 2.5 apg, 2 bpg, 58% fg
2nd championship: 19.6ppg, 11.1rebs, 3.5 apg, 2.1bpg, 54% fg

Bosh stats:
14ppg, 7.8rebs, 0.6 apg, 1bpg, 49.3%

Gasol stats in championship runs are pretty damn good. He shot 58% during the first run...and then 53.9% the next year...those are amazing numbers. IMO, he's a HOFer based on his NBA career. He does so many things well.

His numbers are only at that level because he was the #2 guy on the team, whereas Bosh is #3. If the Lakers win the title this year, he certainly won't be putting up those kind of numbers.

But my comparison to Bosh wasn't because of the numbers, it was because Pau is a "champion" because he played alongside an all time great. Same is true of Bosh. (who's playing with two of them, actually) Chris Webber is not a "champion" because he didn't, although he's a much better player.

I think we put WAY too much weight on whether or not a player won a title, because that's something that's determined by factors that are mostly out of their control.
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
No need to get all Kurt Thomas-y on us, crzy.

  • crzy
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I think Alonzo Mourning is a fair comparison for Dwight Howard, in terms of their accomplishments and talent level. But Alonzo is a borderline Hall of Famer.

Physically, Dwight could obviously match-up with any center in NBA history. What's for certain though is that Dwight Howard is totally overrated because of the era he plays in.

And yes, I am turned off by Dwight's offensive limitations.

I would take prime Patrick Ewing over Dwight Howard.
Originally posted by crzy:
I think Alonzo Mourning is a fair comparison for Dwight Howard, in terms of their accomplishments and talent level. But Alonzo is a borderline Hall of Famer.

Physically, Dwight could obviously match-up with any center in NBA history. What's for certain though is that Dwight Howard is totally overrated because of the era he plays in.

And yes, I am turned off by Dwight's offensive limitations.

I would take prime Patrick Ewing over Dwight Howard.

I think Mourning comparison is valid but Dwight has more offensive game.

I take that back. The mourning comparison is almost dead on accurate.
[ Edited by pdizo916 on Oct 10, 2012 at 11:18 AM ]
Originally posted by crzy:
I think Alonzo Mourning is a fair comparison for Dwight Howard, in terms of their accomplishments and talent level. But Alonzo is a borderline Hall of Famer.

Physically, Dwight could obviously match-up with any center in NBA history. What's for certain though is that Dwight Howard is totally overrated because of the era he plays in.

And yes, I am turned off by Dwight's offensive limitations.

I would take prime Patrick Ewing over Dwight Howard.

I agree with all of this
Zo wasn't nearly the rebounder that Howard is.

Personally, I think Howard is underrated because of the era he plays in. What do you think is more likely...that capable scorers at the center position suddenly disappeared, or that something changed about the game? It's the post-2001 rules. Dwight's career high in shot attempts is 13.4. Ewing didn't average less than 14 FGAs until he was 37 years old.

I think the best historical comparison for Howard is Moses Malone, except Howard is a better shotblocker. Malone wasn't a particularly skilled offensive player, but he was a f**king bull in the paint, and there was about a 9 year stretch where he averaged around 25ppg. That would be Howard in another era, except he'd still be an exceptional rebounder and shot blocker as well.
[ Edited by LA9erFan on Oct 10, 2012 at 11:46 AM ]
  • crzy
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  • Posts: 39,284
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Zo wasn't nearly the rebounder that Howard is.

Personally, I think Howard is underrated because of the era he plays in. What do you think is more likely...that capable scorers at the center position suddenly disappeared, or that something changed about the game? It's the post-2001 rules. Dwight's career high in shot attempts is 13.4. Ewing didn't average less than 14 FGAs until he was 37 years old.

I think the best historical comparison for Howard is Moses Malone, except Howard is a better shotblocker. Malone wasn't a particularly skilled offensive player, but he was a f**king bull in the paint, and there was about a 9 year stretch where he averaged around 25ppg. That would be Howard in another era, except he'd still be an exceptional rebounder and shot blocker as well.

Capable post scorers at the center position didn't "disappear", they just started to focus more on perimeter skills from a young age as the whole game transitioned into a more perimeter-oriented game. 6-11 guys like Kevin Durant may have become big men in previous eras, methinks.

You make a fair points about the zone, but I still think you're overstating the impact that eliminating zone defenses would have on Dwight Howard's offensive output.


I was trying to do a statistical analysis to see if we could determine what the actual impact of the zone rules have been. But that would require too much effort
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
It was in response to a comment. 'Melo will be a HOFer.

Gasol played a HUGE role in the two championships. This is not close.

Gasol stats:
1st championship: 18.3ppg, 10.8rebs, 2.5 apg, 2 bpg, 58% fg
2nd championship: 19.6ppg, 11.1rebs, 3.5 apg, 2.1bpg, 54% fg

Bosh stats:
14ppg, 7.8rebs, 0.6 apg, 1bpg, 49.3%

Gasol stats in championship runs are pretty damn good. He shot 58% during the first run...and then 53.9% the next year...those are amazing numbers. IMO, he's a HOFer based on his NBA career. He does so many things well.

His numbers are only at that level because he was the #2 guy on the team, whereas Bosh is #3. If the Lakers win the title this year, he certainly won't be putting up those kind of numbers.

But my comparison to Bosh wasn't because of the numbers, it was because Pau is a "champion" because he played alongside an all time great. Same is true of Bosh. (who's playing with two of them, actually) Chris Webber is not a "champion" because he didn't, although he's a much better player.

I think we put WAY too much weight on whether or not a player won a title, because that's something that's determined by factors that are mostly out of their control.

Being a 3rd option should only make a difference in ppg. Bosh is not as good a rebounder as Gasol, he is not as good a shot-blocker, he is not as good a passer, he is not as efficient. I won't say Gasol is a champion because he played with Kobe. Lakers couldn't get past 2nd round before Gasol joined. He was crucial for their success. Gasol was the trade that put Lakers the clear favorites. What I mean is, Gasol was a HUGE reason for those 2 championships.

Bosh was important, but Miami would have won that title with any PF who could rebound - that's all they required from that position. I think Webber is a better player, but voters put a lot of stock in post-season success, and he is known more for failing in those moments since fab-five days.

...and of course, I agree with the last thing you said. I've been saying that about Lebron for 4-5 years.