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Who is the best Player in baseball right now?

Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
John, to be fair fangraphs is literally the standard for Sabermetrics as it basically takes every single calculation that Bill James has ever conceived and tied it into their website (fWAR is a slight derision). They're also the only site that's allowed to post his projections from his handbook if I remember correctly. They're far and beyond the best source of information like that, so I'd say you should probably go off those numbers. Basically, fWAR's offensive rating is the same for all players (wOBA), whereas rWAR's varies based on the quality of the player's teams' offense, which is why Fangraphs' is more generally accepted in my opinion.

No one's saying their word should be taken for gospel, but to not delve into things other than BA, HR's and RBI's to determine how good a player is, is just silly in this day and age. There's a reason this guy has been working with the Red Sox for the last 10+ years and it's because a lot of his philosophies ring true. WAR is definitely an important stat when determining the success/value of a player, but not the end-all-be-all.

I dont disagree that some sabermetrics stats are useful. My ONLY point in the whole debate was that Joey Votto is clearly not head and shoulders above everyone else and that to say "its not even close" was just ridiculous. I love Votto as a player but he plays in probably the best hitters park in the majors and his road splits are not quite as strong. I also believe ( and its just my bias perhaps) that a first baseman has to be WAY ahead in the hitting stats to be considered the best player in the game. Pujols was that kind of guy in his prime years. I dont think Votto is at that level. Great... of course. Top 5 probably. The best and its not even close - no way.
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
John, to be fair fangraphs is literally the standard for Sabermetrics as it basically takes every single calculation that Bill James has ever conceived and tied it into their website (fWAR is a slight derision). They're also the only site that's allowed to post his projections from his handbook if I remember correctly. They're far and beyond the best source of information like that, so I'd say you should probably go off those numbers. Basically, fWAR's offensive rating is the same for all players (wOBA), whereas rWAR's varies based on the quality of the player's teams' offense, which is why Fangraphs' is more generally accepted in my opinion.

No one's saying their word should be taken for gospel, but to not delve into things other than BA, HR's and RBI's to determine how good a player is, is just silly in this day and age. There's a reason this guy has been working with the Red Sox for the last 10+ years and it's because a lot of his philosophies ring true. WAR is definitely an important stat when determining the success/value of a player, but not the end-all-be-all.

I dont disagree that some sabermetrics stats are useful. My ONLY point in the whole debate was that Joey Votto is clearly not head and shoulders above everyone else and that to say "its not even close" was just ridiculous. I love Votto as a player but he plays in probably the best hitters park in the majors and his road splits are not quite as strong. I also believe ( and its just my bias perhaps) that a first baseman has to be WAY ahead in the hitting stats to be considered the best player in the game. Pujols was that kind of guy in his prime years. I dont think Votto is at that level. Great... of course. Top 5 probably. The best and its not even close - no way.

If you look at his wOBA, and wRC+, they are not even close to the next closest person. They just aren't.
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
John, to be fair fangraphs is literally the standard for Sabermetrics as it basically takes every single calculation that Bill James has ever conceived and tied it into their website (fWAR is a slight derision). They're also the only site that's allowed to post his projections from his handbook if I remember correctly. They're far and beyond the best source of information like that, so I'd say you should probably go off those numbers. Basically, fWAR's offensive rating is the same for all players (wOBA), whereas rWAR's varies based on the quality of the player's teams' offense, which is why Fangraphs' is more generally accepted in my opinion.

No one's saying their word should be taken for gospel, but to not delve into things other than BA, HR's and RBI's to determine how good a player is, is just silly in this day and age. There's a reason this guy has been working with the Red Sox for the last 10+ years and it's because a lot of his philosophies ring true. WAR is definitely an important stat when determining the success/value of a player, but not the end-all-be-all.

I dont disagree that some sabermetrics stats are useful. My ONLY point in the whole debate was that Joey Votto is clearly not head and shoulders above everyone else and that to say "its not even close" was just ridiculous. I love Votto as a player but he plays in probably the best hitters park in the majors and his road splits are not quite as strong. I also believe ( and its just my bias perhaps) that a first baseman has to be WAY ahead in the hitting stats to be considered the best player in the game. Pujols was that kind of guy in his prime years. I dont think Votto is at that level. Great... of course. Top 5 probably. The best and its not even close - no way.

Don't disagree with any of that at all, but I quite frankly think an argument can be made for anyone in the top five right now. And yes, having 0.1 more WAR than the second place player makes it extremely close but his wOBA and wRC+ don't (not that those are end-all-be-all stats either).
[ Edited by itlynstalyn on Jul 13, 2012 at 1:17 PM ]
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
John, to be fair fangraphs is literally the standard for Sabermetrics as it basically takes every single calculation that Bill James has ever conceived and tied it into their website (fWAR is a slight derision). They're also the only site that's allowed to post his projections from his handbook if I remember correctly. They're far and beyond the best source of information like that, so I'd say you should probably go off those numbers. Basically, fWAR's offensive rating is the same for all players (wOBA), whereas rWAR's varies based on the quality of the player's teams' offense, which is why Fangraphs' is more generally accepted in my opinion.

No one's saying their word should be taken for gospel, but to not delve into things other than BA, HR's and RBI's to determine how good a player is, is just silly in this day and age. There's a reason this guy has been working with the Red Sox for the last 10+ years and it's because a lot of his philosophies ring true. WAR is definitely an important stat when determining the success/value of a player, but not the end-all-be-all.

I dont disagree that some sabermetrics stats are useful. My ONLY point in the whole debate was that Joey Votto is clearly not head and shoulders above everyone else and that to say "its not even close" was just ridiculous. I love Votto as a player but he plays in probably the best hitters park in the majors and his road splits are not quite as strong. I also believe ( and its just my bias perhaps) that a first baseman has to be WAY ahead in the hitting stats to be considered the best player in the game. Pujols was that kind of guy in his prime years. I dont think Votto is at that level. Great... of course. Top 5 probably. The best and its not even close - no way.

Don't disagree with any of that at all, but I quite frankly think an argument can be made for anyone in the top five right now. And yes, having 0.1 more WAR than the second place player makes it extremely close but his wOBA and wRC+ don't (not that those are end-all-be-all stats either).

I think just looking at 2 sabermetric stats and not considering the park he plays in and the position he plays is way too shortsighted. I think we are on the same page here and there is just one poster who seems to be on an island by himself.
Boobie Dixon
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
I think just looking at 2 sabermetric stats and not considering the park he plays in and the position he plays is way too shortsighted. I think we are on the same page here and there is just one poster who seems to be on an island by himself.

nah man, I completely understand positional scarcity and park factors. but there are stats for that too.

I conceded to Jigga earlier that if you want to include defense and park factors that McCutchen would be a close second, but that I still felt it was Votto.

But at the same time you can't hold park factors against a player; he plays in his home park for 81 games, and you can't take that away from him.
Cody Pickett for sure


I have that poster in my room lol




Originally posted by marshniners24:


I have that poster in my room lol

I am going to have Ruuber ban you for this.
Originally posted by IdentityCrisis:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
I think just looking at 2 sabermetric stats and not considering the park he plays in and the position he plays is way too shortsighted. I think we are on the same page here and there is just one poster who seems to be on an island by himself.

nah man, I completely understand positional scarcity and park factors. but there are stats for that too.

I conceded to Jigga earlier that if you want to include defense and park factors that McCutchen would be a close second, but that I still felt it was Votto.

But at the same time you can't hold park factors against a player; he plays in his home park for 81 games, and you can't take that away from him.

"CLOSE second being the key point. Of course you have to consider everything. As for the park, I believe that simply has to be part of the equation. Votto plays in a park which is absolutely an amazing place for hitters to play. Again, I could find many people who think Votto is #1. I just doubt I could find anyone other than you that would say its Votto and its not even close.

Anyway, this debate has reached its conclusion for me. Moving on...
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by marshniners24:


I have that poster in my room lol

I am going to have Ruuber ban you for this.

LULZ! I was like 5 I dont even have room to brag about it
Originally posted by marshniners24:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by marshniners24:


I have that poster in my room lol

I am going to have Ruuber ban you for this.

LULZ! I was like 5 I dont even have room to brag about it

You were 5 years old in 2002? Isnt there a minimum age in here? LOL
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
You were 5 years old in 2002? Isnt there a minimum age in here? LOL

No I was like 8 lol
Originally posted by marshniners24:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
You were 5 years old in 2002? Isnt there a minimum age in here? LOL

No I was like 8 lol

I have t-shirts older than you. ( At least I didnt say underwear)