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Do we "scheme" our passing attack?

So here's a question.. Do we "scheme" our passing attack?
In other words, do we use elaborate, very creative ways to get our receivers open in space, rather than letting our guys beat their man?

I remember seeing one of those Gameday videos, where analysts would break down film, and I think it was Brian Billick or someone saying that the 49ers receivers don't do a good job of winning battles on the outside. And to my recollection, it always feels like the majority of our plays are crossing routes over the middle, or disguised wheel routes. (Obviously, we have a full route tree, but I'm just speaking in general terms).

The reason I ask is this... is it possible that our receiving corps isn't as good as we think it is? Michael Crabtree obviously blossomed this year and was an 1100 yard receiver with 85 receptions, but I've seen him get shut-down from time-to-time by physical corners who are strong in press coverage... which is surprising, since he's a pretty big, physical receiver himself. But after Crabtree, we've got an aged Randy Moss (who probably won't be with us next year), decently sized Mario Manningham (coming off a major injury), decently sized A.J. Jenkins (who didn't do anything this year, and needs to put on some muscle), and Kyle Williams (coming off a major injury).

Our passing attack wasn't the reason why we lost the Super Bowl, but I get the sense that our defense won't be as strong the next few years, and our offense is going to need to pick up the slack. It'd be nice to have a big, physical wide receiver opposite Crabtree and to complement Manningham/Jenkins/Williams in the slot. I hope we pick up at least one of the second-tier wide receivers in free agency or trade for one.
i guess
Jim Harbaugh should mix it up a bit with the old West Coast offensive plays. Try some old plays from Bill Walsh's playbook and see how it goes? I would like to see that.
I feel what your saying and question the same thing. I've heard from a few people that our QB's were told where to go with the football, instead of allowing them to scan the field.
I would definitely like to see more scheming in short yardage situations (3 to 6 yards for the 1st down) the way I've seen the Patriots and Seahawks do. When you watch those offenses, you see a lot of picks and misdirections designed to isolate a receiver in short yardage. When the Niners run up against teams with big strong fronts, like the Giants, Ravens, Seahawks and Rams and can't really depend on getting three or four yards on third downs, they need this kind of scheme. I'm not saying I never see it. I just don't see it as often as I do with the Seahawks or the Patriots.
Originally posted by GNielsen:
I would definitely like to see more scheming in short yardage situations (3 to 6 yards for the 1st down) the way I've seen the Patriots and Seahawks do. When you watch those offenses, you see a lot of picks and misdirections designed to isolate a receiver in short yardage. When the Niners run up against teams with big strong fronts, like the Giants, Ravens, Seahawks and Rams and can't really depend on getting three or four yards on third downs, they need this kind of scheme. I'm not saying I never see it. I just don't see it as often as I do with the Seahawks or the Patriots.

that was one thing that disappointed me about the last 3 plays in superbowl---i know they have plays that are much harder to stop than what they ran
one that comes to mind was crabtree lining wide and cutting inside the slot receiver, which they ran for a td vs saints in the playoff game--another version is what won the game vs lions in 2011 where walker lines up wide and cuts inside crabtree in the slot

another is where crabtree goes in motion and keeps moving into the flat, as they did for 2 point conversion in regular season last year vs giants

that last play all the receiver went straight out
Yes! I've been detailing our "passing attack" all season. It's a college offense to put it simply. It's what I call the Anti-WCO. In the WCO, you typically have a couple deeper route options, then if covered, come back to the TE and then to the check-down in your running backs (RB or FB). Our passing plays are designed to get one guy the ball while the other 10 guys play a role in getting this one-receiver option open. This is highlighted by CK locking on a guy (see the final 4 plays) where it's magnified (b/c there is smaller windows and less time to progression-read). You can really see it if you watch 3rd down plays where, literally, just before the ball is thrown to the targeted receiver, the other guys are already engaged in blocking downfield FOR him.

Its one of the reasons why we sucked so badly when that targeted receiver was covered instantly (see final 4 plays) b/c there are NO other options from the point the receiver is covered and we BLOW as an ad lib team. Yes, there are some progression reads if time permits but it's mostly ad lib and not part of the overall designed play call. VD used to be the primary target, then Crabree and all the while, guys such as Manningham, Williams and Moss were used as decoys or, more appropriately, guys used to clear out space/room for the targeted receiver.

More proof? Remember, CK is given two plays to choose from, rather than one play with built in progression reads and the ability of completely change the play altogether at the LOS based upon what he sees pre-snap from the defensive alignment/look.

Also, one of the reasons IMHO that the move was made when it was with CK, was that when that targeted receiver WAS covered, CK had the legs to make something of a dead play or at least scramble around until a receiver could get open. But to me, it doesn't mask the fact that we run a college offense.
[ Edited by NCommand on Feb 11, 2013 at 10:26 AM ]
doesn't everybody ? lol
Originally posted by hofer36:
that was one thing that disappointed me about the last 3 plays in superbowl---i know they have plays that are much harder to stop than what they ran
one that comes to mind was crabtree lining wide and cutting inside the slot receiver, which they ran for a td vs saints in the playoff game--another version is what won the game vs lions in 2011 where walker lines up wide and cuts inside crabtree in the slot

another is where crabtree goes in motion and keeps moving into the flat, as they did for 2 point conversion in regular season last year vs giants

that last play all the receiver went straight out

I think Harbaugh will improve as well. I can imagine him calming down a little on the sideline and learning to not let his wound up emotions get in the way of his thinking. I have to think that if there had been cooler heads on the sideline, they might have just spent one of their time outs instead of running that first play with James and spent a little time scheming on the sideline before that last series of downs.
I don't know the technical name for it, but one play I haven't seen us do with Kap is a "jump pass". By that I'm talking about when your WR is out deep (usually along the sideline) and covered one-on-one. The QB just lofts it out there and counts on the WR to make the play over the defender, or get a penalty (which happens pretty often). The only real bad things that can happen are an interception, or offensive penalty but those don't happen very often.

Rogers, Ryan (especially him), and Flacco threw those, but I don't think the Niners have. There was that pretty long throw Kap made to VD, but that was more of a mismatch and not as deep as the ones I'm thinking of.
Originally posted by PineNut:
I don't know the technical name for it, but one play I haven't seen us do with Kap is a "jump pass". By that I'm talking about when your WR is out deep (usually along the sideline) and covered one-on-one. The QB just lofts it out there and counts on the WR to make the play over the defender, or get a penalty (which happens pretty often). The only real bad things that can happen are an interception, or offensive penalty but those don't happen very often.

Rogers, Ryan (especially him), and Flacco threw those, but I don't think the Niners have. There was that pretty long throw Kap made to VD, but that was more of a mismatch and not as deep as the ones I'm thinking of.

I think you are talking about a "fade". If so that was the last play of the Super Bowl, and the two point fail. I think we do this but it should be done on first or second down not on 4th down or 2 pt. attempt. That and I don't think we have a WR capable. Crabtrees doesn't really have the size for it, Moss is too frail anymore, and Ginn? Don't see Ginn winning the one on one.
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
I think you are talking about a "fade". If so that was the last play of the Super Bowl, and the two point fail. I think we do this but it should be done on first or second down not on 4th down or 2 pt. attempt. That and I don't think we have a WR capable. Crabtrees doesn't really have the size for it, Moss is too frail anymore, and Ginn? Don't see Ginn winning the one on one.


Yes, I know we tried that fade in the SB, and I know Kap tried one during the season (forget which game) that also failed. Both of those were short passes to the end zone.

If it's a long pass, is that still a fade? Anyway, I just don't recall Kap trying any long lofts to a receiver with tight, single coverage. He's completed several long passes (like the one to Williams vs. Chicago) but those receivers were open as I recall.
Originally posted by susweel:
doesn't everybody ? lol

you ever watched Jax
Originally posted by Wubbie:
So here's a question.. Do we "scheme" our passing attack?
In other words, do we use elaborate, very creative ways to get our receivers open in space, rather than letting our guys beat their man?

I remember seeing one of those Gameday videos, where analysts would break down film, and I think it was Brian Billick or someone saying that the 49ers receivers don't do a good job of winning battles on the outside. And to my recollection, it always feels like the majority of our plays are crossing routes over the middle, or disguised wheel routes. (Obviously, we have a full route tree, but I'm just speaking in general terms).

The reason I ask is this... is it possible that our receiving corps isn't as good as we think it is? Michael Crabtree obviously blossomed this year and was an 1100 yard receiver with 85 receptions, but I've seen him get shut-down from time-to-time by physical corners who are strong in press coverage... which is surprising, since he's a pretty big, physical receiver himself. But after Crabtree, we've got an aged Randy Moss (who probably won't be with us next year), decently sized Mario Manningham (coming off a major injury), decently sized A.J. Jenkins (who didn't do anything this year, and needs to put on some muscle), and Kyle Williams (coming off a major injury).

Our passing attack wasn't the reason why we lost the Super Bowl, but I get the sense that our defense won't be as strong the next few years, and our offense is going to need to pick up the slack. It'd be nice to have a big, physical wide receiver opposite Crabtree and to complement Manningham/Jenkins/Williams in the slot. I hope we pick up at least one of the second-tier wide receivers in free agency or trade for one.

Our guys suck against press coverage which baffles me since they are considered good blockers. I also see our receivers as "ground" players who don't like to leave their feet and "high point" a ball. That was something the old Randy Moss did a lot. Now he's too old and lazy.
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by susweel:
doesn't everybody ? lol

you ever watched Jax

nope I only watch real nfl teams