There are 87 users in the forums

Remember
Not a member? Register Now!

Smith, Tolzien thread. Yet again

Originally posted by InHarbsWeTrust:
Originally posted by Caligula66:
Let me preface this by saying, I am one of the biggest CK fans out there. With CK, our offense is more exciting, more dynamic. We can score quickly and sometimes almost effortlessly. Getting behind early isn't a problem because of this factor. We can easily catch up with big chunk of yards via Ck's big arm. Many question whether we would have made up those big deficits if Smith was still the qb. In my opinion,

I don't think we would have been behind that much leading to the second half in some games if Smith were behind center. The offense behind Smith is a more controlled short yardage offense that methodically moves down the field. The running game with Gore is established early and is complimented by short pass plays to convert 2nd or 3rd downs. Boring...yes, but effective. More time is consumed which keeps our defense on the sideline, therefore more rest for them.

I just think with our seemingly change to this quick score, almost all or nothing offense, is when our defense started to struggle. What say you?

No...no...no.

So you see no connection between the style of offense that is played, and the performance of the defense?
  • pd24
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 2,029
Originally posted by Furlow:
Originally posted by InHarbsWeTrust:
Originally posted by Caligula66:
Let me preface this by saying, I am one of the biggest CK fans out there. With CK, our offense is more exciting, more dynamic. We can score quickly and sometimes almost effortlessly. Getting behind early isn't a problem because of this factor. We can easily catch up with big chunk of yards via Ck's big arm. Many question whether we would have made up those big deficits if Smith was still the qb. In my opinion,

I don't think we would have been behind that much leading to the second half in some games if Smith were behind center. The offense behind Smith is a more controlled short yardage offense that methodically moves down the field. The running game with Gore is established early and is complimented by short pass plays to convert 2nd or 3rd downs. Boring...yes, but effective. More time is consumed which keeps our defense on the sideline, therefore more rest for them.

I just think with our seemingly change to this quick score, almost all or nothing offense, is when our defense started to struggle. What say you?

No...no...no.

So you see no connection between the style of offense that is played, and the performance of the defense?


Our defense started to struggle whe Justin Smith got hurt in the Pats game and teams started to expose Whitner and Goldson in coverage and the lack of pass rush.
Originally posted by Furlow:
So you see no connection between the style of offense that is played, and the performance of the defense?

I edited my post. No. I see no connection.
Originally posted by Caligula66:
Let me preface this by saying, I am one of the biggest CK fans out there. With CK, our offense is more exciting, more dynamic. We can score quickly and sometimes almost effortlessly. Getting behind early isn't a problem because of this factor. We can easily catch up with big chunk of yards via Ck's big arm. Many question whether we would have made up those big deficits if Smith was still the qb. In my opinion,

I don't think we would have been behind that much leading to the second half in some games if Smith were behind center. The offense behind Smith is a more controlled short yardage offense that methodically moves down the field. The running game with Gore is established early and is complimented by short pass plays to convert 2nd or 3rd downs. Boring...yes, but effective. More time is consumed which keeps our defense on the sideline, therefore more rest for them.

I just think when we seemingly changed to this quick score, almost all or nothing offense, is when our defense started to struggle. What say you?


I don't know about that. I think it's more perception than reality. People think that Alex Smith would have controlled the clock because when he DOES drive it's usually a longer, more sustained drive. But the reality is that Alex Smith has his fair share of 3 and outs. It's not like the Niners were moving the ball everytime they had the ball under Alex Smith. And the issue with the NFCCG is that the defense was giving up quick scores and the offense went 3 and out on its first two possessions. You are assuming that Alex would not have gone 3 and out, and there's no way for us to know that, but the evidence doesn't show that they would have surely moved the ball. As for the Super Bowl, there were a slew of mistakes that had nothing to do with the offense's style under Kaepernick. I still don't think the Niners would have been in the Super Bowl under Alex Smith.
As a University of Utah fan, I can't wait for Alex to out of this team.. Hes' gotten a raw deal all around. Sure he's made a lot of money but that comes with the territory. This is crap. They better trade or release him. I can't imagine him being happy as a backup. This years playoffs was scripted for Alex. First game against Rodgers, what else needs to be said? Second game against Nolan as DC of Atlanta, then the game he should have won, the Superbowl!. The ravens have proven that you don't need a flashy run and gun QB to win.....it should have been alex hoisting the trophy. He's been nothing but class, the organization has been anything but. And that's my two cents. I'm out!
Originally posted by InHarbsWeTrust:
Originally posted by Furlow:
So you see no connection between the style of offense that is played, and the performance of the defense?

I edited my post. No. I see no connection.

You have obviously never played, coached, or been associated with any type of football team. Even still, the connection should be obvious to anyone who is more than just a casual fan. My 12 year old who played his first season of football this year even pointed this out about the 49ers.
Originally posted by Caligula66:
Originally posted by Furlow:
Originally posted by Caligula66:
Let me preface this by saying, I am one of the biggest CK fans out there. With CK, our offense is more exciting, more dynamic. We can score quickly and sometimes almost effortlessly. Getting behind early isn't a problem because of this factor. We can easily catch up with big chunk of yards via Ck's big arm. Many question whether we would have made up those big deficits if Smith was still the qb. In my opinion,

I don't think we would have been behind that much leading to the second half in some games if Smith were behind center. The offense behind Smith is a more controlled short yardage offense that methodically moves down the field. The running game with Gore is established early and is complimented by short pass plays to convert 2nd or 3rd downs. Boring...yes, but effective. More time is consumed which keeps our defense on the sideline, therefore more rest for them.

I just think with our seemingly change to this quick score, almost all or nothing offense, is when our defense started to struggle. What say you?
This is exactly how I feel about the whole thing. What irks me to no end is that people view it as a Kaep vs. Alex thing, when it isn't. I think Kaep is more than capable of playing the slower, more methodical, efficient style of offense. But Harbaugh won't let him do it. What the reason is, who knows.

I prefer the more controlled style of offense. Take chances when the opportunity presents itself, don't just force the issue constantly. You may lose some games by being "too conservative," but you enable your team to be competitive and in EVERY game. Over time, that efficiency and control increases, so by year 3, 4, 5 of a system like that - you have a well oiled machine. THAT is how the 49ers dynasty was built.

I preferred Smith for this style because of his skill set and experience. Kaepernick has shown that he has more than enough ability, but has also shown a lack of experience. It will take a lot more time for him to get as comfortable with it as Smith was, if Harbaugh ever even returns to this type of offensive mindset.

My thoughts as well. Every game is different and style of play also dictates flow of game. When we turned into the gunslinger type of offense, in turn, our defense went downhill.

Smith vs a great defense is a bunch of 3 and outs waiting to happen. He rarely played well vs top defenses.

Also, we ran 26 times and passed 28. Not sure what more you want in terms of balance. Any more weighed to the carries and you may as well say you don't believe in your QB.

Another note: if Smith plays BAL also changes their game plan to run blitz more. Do you know why they sacked Alex 9 times last year and Gore only averaged 2.9? It's because they run-blitzed him and did not fear his passing, which was correct.
[ Edited by Joecool on Feb 5, 2013 at 2:39 PM ]
  • pd24
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 2,029
Originally posted by Furlow:
Originally posted by InHarbsWeTrust:
Originally posted by Furlow:
So you see no connection between the style of offense that is played, and the performance of the defense?

I edited my post. No. I see no connection.

You have obviously never played, coached, or been associated with any type of football team. Even still, the connection should be obvious to anyone who is more than just a casual fan. My 12 year old who played his first season of football this year even pointed this out about the 49ers.

Mybe you shouldn't listen to 12 year olds, or atleast ask him why this style didn't affect the defense against the Bears, Saints, Rams, Dolphins, and Cards?
I am going to throw out an off-the-wall, unconventional thought:

There might be a problem with having an "elite" QB. Not only will his value take up an inordinate amount of salary cap money, but there may be a danger that the rest of the team is waiting for their elite QB to win the game for them. Eli and Brees couldn't get their team into the playoffs this year. Brady, Manning, Rodgers and Ryan couldn't win their last playoff game this year.

You need a good QB, no doubt, but the rest of the team needs to feel that winning depends on how well they contribute as well. I like that kind of team concept. I liked what we had when Alex was our starter.I think the entire team felt they had to do their part in winning games. If we now have a superstar QB, do we know how that might affect the rest of the team? Not sure. Next year will tell us more.
Originally posted by Furlow:
Originally posted by InHarbsWeTrust:
Originally posted by Furlow:
So you see no connection between the style of offense that is played, and the performance of the defense?

I edited my post. No. I see no connection.

You have obviously never played, coached, or been associated with any type of football team. Even still, the connection should be obvious to anyone who is more than just a casual fan. My 12 year old who played his first season of football this year even pointed this out about the 49ers.

So we change our style offense is your theory? You do know BAL changes their style of defense then, right? See the bold in my post above.

But then we would have just blamed our receivers and that they can't get open vs man.
Originally posted by Furlow:
You have obviously never played, coached, or been associated with any type of football team. Even still, the connection should be obvious to anyone who is more than just a casual fan. My 12 year old who played his first season of football this year even pointed this out about the 49ers.

Challenging my intelligence and fandom. People have been banned for far less.
Originally posted by real9erfan:
Originally posted by Caligula66:
Let me preface this by saying, I am one of the biggest CK fans out there. With CK, our offense is more exciting, more dynamic. We can score quickly and sometimes almost effortlessly. Getting behind early isn't a problem because of this factor. We can easily catch up with big chunk of yards via Ck's big arm. Many question whether we would have made up those big deficits if Smith was still the qb. In my opinion,

I don't think we would have been behind that much leading to the second half in some games if Smith were behind center. The offense behind Smith is a more controlled short yardage offense that methodically moves down the field. The running game with Gore is established early and is complimented by short pass plays to convert 2nd or 3rd downs. Boring...yes, but effective. More time is consumed which keeps our defense on the sideline, therefore more rest for them.

I just think when we seemingly changed to this quick score, almost all or nothing offense, is when our defense started to struggle. What say you?


I don't know about that. I think it's more perception than reality. People think that Alex Smith would have controlled the clock because when he DOES drive it's usually a longer, more sustained drive. But the reality is that Alex Smith has his fair share of 3 and outs. It's not like the Niners were moving the ball everytime they had the ball under Alex Smith. And the issue with the NFCCG is that the defense was giving up quick scores and the offense went 3 and out on its first two possessions. You are assuming that Alex would not have gone 3 and out, and there's no way for us to know that, but the evidence doesn't show that they would have surely moved the ball. As for the Super Bowl, there were a slew of mistakes that had nothing to do with the offense's style under Kaepernick. I still don't think the Niners would have been in the Super Bowl under Alex Smith.

It seems like this argument is meaningless without some numbers for comparison. What was the actual percentage of 3 and outs with each QB? What was the average time of possession per drive? Where did these drives start etc? I don't care enough to find those answers, but if you want definitive proof somebody needs to do the work.
Originally posted by Crysknife10:
As a University of Utah fan, I can't wait for Alex to out of this team.. Hes' gotten a raw deal all around. Sure he's made a lot of money but that comes with the territory. This is crap. They better trade or release him. I can't imagine him being happy as a backup. This years playoffs was scripted for Alex. First game against Rodgers, what else needs to be said? Second game against Nolan as DC of Atlanta, then the game he should have won, the Superbowl!. The ravens have proven that you don't need a flashy run and gun QB to win.....it should have been alex hoisting the trophy. He's been nothing but class, the organization has been anything but. And that's my two cents. I'm out!


Right, the 49ers should make football decisions based on what would make the best fairy tale story lines for a particular player. People keep talking about being "flashy." Who said Kaepernick was given the starting job because he is more "flashy"? He was given the starting job because he is the better QB and the offense was more explosive under him. You need that on a team in case your defense and/or special teams don't play well, like what we saw in the playoffs. I really like Alex Smith and wish him the best, and although I think he may have gotten a raw deal in his first year with the Niners, I think the best thing that happened for his career is the arrival of Jim Harbaugh. The only reason he would have any interest on the market is because Harbaugh resurrected his career. But in the end, Jim Harbaugh has to do what is best for the TEAM, and not what is best to possibly make a feel good story for some emotional fans.
Originally posted by excelsior:
I am going to throw out an off-the-wall, unconventional thought:

There might be a problem with having an "elite" QB. Not only will his value take up an inordinate amount of salary cap money, but there may be a danger that the rest of the team is waiting for their elite QB to win the game for them. Eli and Brees couldn't get their team into the playoffs this year. Brady, Manning, Rodgers and Ryan couldn't win their last playoff game this year.

You need a good QB, no doubt, but the rest of the team needs to feel that winning depends on how well they contribute as well. I like that kind of team concept. I liked what we had when Alex was our starter.I think the entire team felt they had to do their part in winning games. If we now have a superstar QB, do we know how that might affect the rest of the team? Not sure. Next year will tell us more.

Off the wall indeed.
Originally posted by real9erfan:
Right, the 49ers should make football decisions based on what would make the best fairy tale story lines for a particular player. People keep talking about being "flashy." Who said Kaepernick was given the starting job because he is more "flashy"? He was given the starting job because he is the better QB and the offense was more explosive under him. You need that on a team in case your defense and/or special teams don't play well, like what we saw in the playoffs. I really like Alex Smith and wish him the best, and although I think he may have gotten a raw deal in his first year with the Niners, I think the best thing that happened for his career is the arrival of Jim Harbaugh. The only reason he would have any interest on the market is because Harbaugh resurrected his career. But in the end, Jim Harbaugh has to do what is best for the TEAM, and not what is best to possibly make a feel good story for some emotional fans.

Alex was clutch in the redzone. Better chance of getting a TD in the last drive. I dissagree on Kaep being a better QB. I think they are very very close numbers wise, but Alex gets the edge on game management and smarts. I'm not just being emotional. You shouldn't lose your spot if you get hurt.