Smith, Tolzien thread. Yet again

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by taney71:
I've said this before and will again here. Put Aaron Rodgers or Kaep in Alex Smith's situation in 2005 and you get the same result and likely worse from Kaep. The 49ers organization was set up at that time to have its QB fail. I don't think anyone can debate that. As for the old line of "5 years of sucking" from Smith that's just silly. I believe Smith played about 3 seasons worth of football in his first 5 years in the NFL. For the really bad seasons for the team, other than his rookie year, Smith was hurt or the coach was stupid (Singletary in Year 7 or a combination of the two (Nolan in year 3). When healthy and given a decent OC Smith looked good (Year 2 and last half of Year before Harbaugh came).

Don't agree at all. Aaron Rodgers would have shown far more in 2005 with McCarthy AND he would have thrived under Norv Turner. Rodgers has the ability to carry teams in certain situations whereas Alex has rarely shown this even under the best conditions.

I don't know how you can under rate the actual talent Rodgers possesses. He has been talked about having the best ability to throw a football EVER by professionals.

I don't see how you can diminish the impact of being able to sit behind one of the all time greats for 3-4 seasons and learn as opposed to being thrown in the deep end and expected to swim? Case and Point : Steve Young before and after he was with the 49ers.

Originally posted by Jakemall:
I don't see how you can diminish the impact of being able to sit behind one of the all time greats for 3-4 seasons and learn as opposed to being thrown in the deep end? Case and Point : Steve Young before and after he was with the 49ers.

Sitting behind a great player has nothing to do with it. Its all about coaching.

So much of my niner fan hood in the mid to late 2000 have been anger towards alex smith the QB not the man- IMHO the worse draft pick ever! - he redeemed himself to me last year making bold moves and finally getting over the hump the ultimate game manager. Congrats Alex leaf smith ! I will miss my hate for you after every INT , over thrown ball and fumble. No more alexcuses, the smith era is over and I for one am really really happy! I hope he ends up on the cardinals so we see him twice every week. We have come full circle there's not a chance in hell he will be here next year. I hope we get a good trade for him I think it's real possible. Thank you Alex !

Originally posted by Jakemall:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by taney71:
I've said this before and will again here. Put Aaron Rodgers or Kaep in Alex Smith's situation in 2005 and you get the same result and likely worse from Kaep. The 49ers organization was set up at that time to have its QB fail. I don't think anyone can debate that. As for the old line of "5 years of sucking" from Smith that's just silly. I believe Smith played about 3 seasons worth of football in his first 5 years in the NFL. For the really bad seasons for the team, other than his rookie year, Smith was hurt or the coach was stupid (Singletary in Year 7 or a combination of the two (Nolan in year 3). When healthy and given a decent OC Smith looked good (Year 2 and last half of Year before Harbaugh came).

Don't agree at all. Aaron Rodgers would have shown far more in 2005 with McCarthy AND he would have thrived under Norv Turner. Rodgers has the ability to carry teams in certain situations whereas Alex has rarely shown this even under the best conditions.

I don't know how you can under rate the actual talent Rodgers possesses. He has been talked about having the best ability to throw a football EVER by professionals.

I don't see how you can diminish the impact of being able to sit behind one of the all time greats for 3-4 seasons and learn as opposed to being thrown in the deep end and expected to swim? Case and Point : Steve Young before and after he was with the 49ers.

Steve Young was a runner first in college. Big difference. He had to learn how to sit in the pocket. Rodgers was a WCO QB and we would probably never go to Norv and would stick with the WCO because Rodgers wouldn't have had as much trouble in that offense as Alex. Therefore, one could say that the entire team would be working with one type of offense.

And you cannot deny the difference in Talent and how one was WAY more polished between the two QB's. Alex's inability to adjust to the pro style was a reason we switched to cator to his comfort.

So he sat and learned but came out with guns blazing. He was still the more pro ready QB. He would have probably exploded with us in his second or third year.

Anyways here are teams with quarterbacks that I think Alex Smith is clearly better than and arguably as good or better than

Clearly better than- Jaguars, Bills, Dolphins, Jets, Browns, Titans, Chiefs, Raiders, Eagles, Buccaneers, Cardinals, Rams



Arguably as good or better than-


Ravens (I think he's similar to Joe Flacco status, although Flacco is playing lights out right now), Bengals, Steelers (Big Ben isn't all that good, a case can be made), Texans (Schaub looks kind of bad sometimes), Cowboys (Romo is a choke artist), Bears (Jay Cutler ain't all that), Lions (Stafford kind of sucked this year), Panthers (Cam Newton was also kind of boo boo and I think Smith is a better passer),


Now some of those guys may put up way bigger numbers, but I'd rather have Smith with the game on the line rather than a lot of them. So that is 20 teams with qbs that I think Smith may be on par with or better than. Out of those teams I think the Jaguars, Bills, Dolphins, Jets, Browns, Titans, Chiefs, Raiders, Eagles, Bucs, Cardinals, and maybe even the Rams could show interest in trading for him. I think we should at least get a 3rd round pick, possibly a 2nd.

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by cciowa:
well i will step up as a extreme alex lover and say i am sorry for all those times i made fun and ripped joe and others when they tried to tell us that alex takes sacks and ck would not. i thought that was the dumbest thing i ever heard,, well it is pretty easy to see how wrong i was about that.

No need for that cciowa. The way everything has played out lets us know both sides had valid reasons to think why they did and that it wasn't all about "credibility" or this or that.

The main disturbance now is the anger when Alex is measured. All that is asked is to put the anger/personal feelings toward a player aside and let the conversations or comments go as they may. It is only a discussion.

I made a comment that Keap is a fast striker and scores faster in comparison to Alex and got ripped for being a hater....

Apparently you are only allowed to give praise in the Keap thread but are still allowed to talk s**t in this one.

all i can say is that i like alex very very very much and felt bad for the way it came down for him. now maybe i have no heart but once i saw what ck could do i was a fan cuz i could see he was probably better for us. it did not take a genius to figure that out but that it was tough to admit it due to my loyalty to alex. i think the people who blamed ck for the first rams loss were dead wrong and i think they should just stop nitpicking cks game.. on the other hand it is very very tiresome to hear some people continue to pick at alex and kick him while he is down. that is uncalled for in my opinion. he has been a very good team mate in this whole thing, this is not a joe vs steve thing and for those of us who remember that,, thank god for that. i have no point to my rambling

Originally posted by Jcool:

Originally posted by Jakemall:
I don't see how you can diminish the impact of being able to sit behind one of the all time greats for 3-4 seasons and learn as opposed to being thrown in the deep end? Case and Point : Steve Young before and after he was with the 49ers.

Sitting behind a great player has nothing to do with it. Its all about coaching.

rogers can say the right things but i wonder if he ever learned anything from the guy ahead of him. i heard he was very rude and cool to rogers. young can say the right nice things to about montana but sometimes i wonder about the setting and learning theory. going back to the old days, while alex may not have learned alot from garcia,, nolan really f**ked up when he opted not to bring back garcia for a couple years and threw alex in to the wolves.

Originally posted by cciowa:
rogers can say the right things but i wonder if he ever learned anything from the guy ahead of him. i heard he was very rude and cool to rogers. young can say the right nice things to about montana but sometimes i wonder about the setting and learning theory. going back to the old days, while alex may not have learned alot from garcia,, nolan really f**ked up when he opted not to bring back garcia for a couple years and threw alex in to the wolves.

Garcia left in 2003... Alex was drafted in 2005

Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:
Anyways here are teams with quarterbacks that I think Alex Smith is clearly better than and arguably as good or better than

Clearly better than- Jaguars, Bills, Dolphins, Jets, Browns, Titans, Chiefs, Raiders, Eagles, Buccaneers, Cardinals, Rams



Arguably as good or better than-


Ravens (I think he's similar to Joe Flacco status, although Flacco is playing lights out right now), Bengals, Steelers (Big Ben isn't all that good, a case can be made), Texans (Schaub looks kind of bad sometimes), Cowboys (Romo is a choke artist), Bears (Jay Cutler ain't all that), Lions (Stafford kind of sucked this year), Panthers (Cam Newton was also kind of boo boo and I think Smith is a better passer),


Now some of those guys may put up way bigger numbers, but I'd rather have Smith with the game on the line rather than a lot of them. So that is 20 teams with qbs that I think Smith may be on par with or better than. Out of those teams I think the Jaguars, Bills, Dolphins, Jets, Browns, Titans, Chiefs, Raiders, Eagles, Bucs, Cardinals, and maybe even the Rams could show interest in trading for him. I think we should at least get a 3rd round pick, possibly a 2nd.

LOL @ this whole post

Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:
Anyways here are teams with quarterbacks that I think Alex Smith is clearly better than and arguably as good or better than

Clearly better than- Jaguars, Bills, Dolphins, Jets, Browns, Titans, Chiefs, Raiders, Eagles, Buccaneers, Cardinals, Rams



Arguably as good or better than-


Ravens (I think he's similar to Joe Flacco status, although Flacco is playing lights out right now), Bengals, Steelers (Big Ben isn't all that good, a case can be made), Texans (Schaub looks kind of bad sometimes), Cowboys (Romo is a choke artist), Bears (Jay Cutler ain't all that), Lions (Stafford kind of sucked this year), Panthers (Cam Newton was also kind of boo boo and I think Smith is a better passer),


Now some of those guys may put up way bigger numbers, but I'd rather have Smith with the game on the line rather than a lot of them. So that is 20 teams with qbs that I think Smith may be on par with or better than. Out of those teams I think the Jaguars, Bills, Dolphins, Jets, Browns, Titans, Chiefs, Raiders, Eagles, Bucs, Cardinals, and maybe even the Rams could show interest in trading for him. I think we should at least get a 3rd round pick, possibly a 2nd.

I for one, will be watching his FA this offseason. I hope he ends up in the AFC, where I'll be able to root for him more due to the fact that we probably wont play him. Browns sound like a nightmare. I'm thinking he ends up in Florida, jags/Dolphins.

Originally posted by OregonDuckNiner:
LOL @ this whole post

seconded.

Originally posted by OregonDuckNiner:

Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:

Anyways here are teams with quarterbacks that I think Alex Smith is clearly better than and arguably as good or better than

Clearly better than- Jaguars, Bills, Dolphins, Jets, Browns, Titans, Chiefs, Raiders, Eagles, Buccaneers, Cardinals, Rams



Arguably as good or better than-


Ravens (I think he's similar to Joe Flacco status, although Flacco is playing lights out right now), Bengals, Steelers (Big Ben isn't all that good, a case can be made), Texans (Schaub looks kind of bad sometimes), Cowboys (Romo is a choke artist), Bears (Jay Cutler ain't all that), Lions (Stafford kind of sucked this year), Panthers (Cam Newton was also kind of boo boo and I think Smith is a better passer),


Now some of those guys may put up way bigger numbers, but I'd rather have Smith with the game on the line rather than a lot of them. So that is 20 teams with qbs that I think Smith may be on par with or better than. Out of those teams I think the Jaguars, Bills, Dolphins, Jets, Browns, Titans, Chiefs, Raiders, Eagles, Bucs, Cardinals, and maybe even the Rams could show interest in trading for him. I think we should at least get a 3rd round pick, possibly a 2nd.

LOL @ this whole post

Wow that's a powerful rebuttal of his argument. You dismantled each of his points with logic and cool reasoning.



Oh. No you haven't actually, have you.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Jakemall:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by taney71:
I've said this before and will again here. Put Aaron Rodgers or Kaep in Alex Smith's situation in 2005 and you get the same result and likely worse from Kaep. The 49ers organization was set up at that time to have its QB fail. I don't think anyone can debate that. As for the old line of "5 years of sucking" from Smith that's just silly. I believe Smith played about 3 seasons worth of football in his first 5 years in the NFL. For the really bad seasons for the team, other than his rookie year, Smith was hurt or the coach was stupid (Singletary in Year 7 or a combination of the two (Nolan in year 3). When healthy and given a decent OC Smith looked good (Year 2 and last half of Year before Harbaugh came).

Don't agree at all. Aaron Rodgers would have shown far more in 2005 with McCarthy AND he would have thrived under Norv Turner. Rodgers has the ability to carry teams in certain situations whereas Alex has rarely shown this even under the best conditions.

I don't know how you can under rate the actual talent Rodgers possesses. He has been talked about having the best ability to throw a football EVER by professionals.

I don't see how you can diminish the impact of being able to sit behind one of the all time greats for 3-4 seasons and learn as opposed to being thrown in the deep end and expected to swim? Case and Point : Steve Young before and after he was with the 49ers.

Steve Young was a runner first in college. Big difference. He had to learn how to sit in the pocket. Rodgers was a WCO QB and we would probably never go to Norv and would stick with the WCO because Rodgers wouldn't have had as much trouble in that offense as Alex. Therefore, one could say that the entire team would be working with one type of offense.

And you cannot deny the difference in Talent and how one was WAY more polished between the two QB's. Alex's inability to adjust to the pro style was a reason we switched to cator to his comfort.

So he sat and learned but came out with guns blazing. He was still the more pro ready QB. He would have probably exploded with us in his second or third year.

Rodgers may have developed faster, but he would not have exploded with us. Our pass protection, coaching, receivers were absolutely horrid up until recently. Rodgers isn't going to be tearing it up throwing to guys like Bryan Gilmore and Billy Bajema, with under 2 seconds to throw the ball, and s**tty coaches who have no idea how to groom a qb.

Urban Meyer was quoted as saying Alex Smith might take a bit of time to develop but once he gets it, he really gets it. When he was finally put into a decent situation for a qb to have success, we go 13-3 and he was only getting better this year. Remember coming out, Smith and Rodgers were looked at as nearly identical, when it came to throw power, accuracy, and getting the game. In fact, Smith was seen as the better athlete. Smith was favored because McCarthy wasn't fond of Rodgers attitude. McCarthy and Rodgers have butted heads a few times in Greenbay.

Nearly identical quarterbacks. One gets put into the optimal situation for a qb to succeed, and one gets put into the worst possible. Switch their situations and you most likely see similar results, smith would be successful in greenbay, while Rodgers would struggle a bit and get his shoulder hurt. Smith might have not been AS successful as Rodgers and Rodgers might not struggle AS much as Smith, but I would be willing to bet the situation would be reversed! Two very similar qbs coming out... and don't forget, Alex Smith has a good mental game, despite what might be portrayed. You have to have one hell of a mental game to get through what he's been through!

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Jakemall:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by taney71:

I've said this before and will again here. Put Aaron Rodgers or Kaep in Alex Smith's situation in 2005 and you get the same result and likely worse from Kaep. The 49ers organization was set up at that time to have its QB fail. I don't think anyone can debate that. As for the old line of "5 years of sucking" from Smith that's just silly. I believe Smith played about 3 seasons worth of football in his first 5 years in the NFL. For the really bad seasons for the team, other than his rookie year, Smith was hurt or the coach was stupid (Singletary in Year 7 or a combination of the two (Nolan in year 3). When healthy and given a decent OC Smith looked good (Year 2 and last half of Year before Harbaugh came).

Don't agree at all. Aaron Rodgers would have shown far more in 2005 with McCarthy AND he would have thrived under Norv Turner. Rodgers has the ability to carry teams in certain situations whereas Alex has rarely shown this even under the best conditions.

I don't know how you can under rate the actual talent Rodgers possesses. He has been talked about having the best ability to throw a football EVER by professionals.

I don't see how you can diminish the impact of being able to sit behind one of the all time greats for 3-4 seasons and learn as opposed to being thrown in the deep end and expected to swim? Case and Point : Steve Young before and after he was with the 49ers.

Steve Young was a runner first in college. Big difference. He had to learn how to sit in the pocket. Rodgers was a WCO QB and we would probably never go to Norv and would stick with the WCO because Rodgers wouldn't have had as much trouble in that offense as Alex. Therefore, one could say that the entire team would be working with one type of offense.

And you cannot deny the difference in Talent and how one was WAY more polished between the two QB's. Alex's inability to adjust to the pro style was a reason we switched to cator to his comfort.

So he sat and learned but came out with guns blazing. He was still the more pro ready QB. He would have probably exploded with us in his second or third year.

Steve Young was NOT a runner first in college! Did you ever watch him play? I don't think he ever ran more than 500 yards in a season. He was a scrambler but he threw way more yards than he ran.

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by OregonDuckNiner:

Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:
Anyways here are teams with quarterbacks that I think Alex Smith is clearly better than and arguably as good or better than

Clearly better than- Jaguars, Bills, Dolphins, Jets, Browns, Titans, Chiefs, Raiders, Eagles, Buccaneers, Cardinals, Rams



Arguably as good or better than-


Ravens (I think he's similar to Joe Flacco status, although Flacco is playing lights out right now), Bengals, Steelers (Big Ben isn't all that good, a case can be made), Texans (Schaub looks kind of bad sometimes), Cowboys (Romo is a choke artist), Bears (Jay Cutler ain't all that), Lions (Stafford kind of sucked this year), Panthers (Cam Newton was also kind of boo boo and I think Smith is a better passer),


Now some of those guys may put up way bigger numbers, but I'd rather have Smith with the game on the line rather than a lot of them. So that is 20 teams with qbs that I think Smith may be on par with or better than. Out of those teams I think the Jaguars, Bills, Dolphins, Jets, Browns, Titans, Chiefs, Raiders, Eagles, Bucs, Cardinals, and maybe even the Rams could show interest in trading for him. I think we should at least get a 3rd round pick, possibly a 2nd.

LOL @ this whole post

Wow that's a powerful rebuttal of his argument. You dismantled each of his points with logic and cool reasoning.



Oh. No you haven't actually, have you.

Lol, thank you