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Smith, Tolzien thread. Yet again

Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Hey, for us, it would be good to keep Alex around as QB insurance. Let's face it... Colin is gonna be running around and taking hits frequently. So for this kind of QB... and for this kind of SB contending team.. it would be wise to make sure a QB injury doesn't leave your season in ruins. That alone would be worth the money to keep him around. Now, is Alex okay with being a backup while making damn good money? That, I really can't say. I doubt his hunger to start has diminished... and I really doubt he wants to be around Harbaugh at this point.

Hey oldman what do you think about our coach now ?

I sense the trap.. but the question is.. fair. To be honest, I'm rather conflicted right now about him. Kaepernick truly is much better than I thought he would be at this point. There was no reason for me to know that as well as the coaches do... they get to see it all behind the scenes. So the point that Kaepernick brings a more dynamic element is legit.

I, however, still feel that we could have gotten this far... and win it all with either QB. So that is the part where I feel conflicted on his decision. Still feels wrong... Coach knowing how much this meant to Alex.. all the betrayal he's endured here.. and yet still opting to go with the more dynamic QB. I get it... I really do.. but I guess I still harbor some ill will towards the decision made. At the end of the day and as a fan? I really do just want the SB victories... that comes first.. and I can not feel too badly about a 27-28 year old man I never met that has made roughly 50 million dollars in his seemingly perfect life already.

( no following cheap shots, please... I answered your question the best I could.. despite seeing the potential for more WZ fireworks )
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
I sense the trap.. but the question is.. fair. To be honest, I'm rather conflicted right now about him. Kaepernick truly is much better than I thought he would be at this point. There was no reason for me to know that as well as the coaches do... they get to see it all behind the scenes. So the point that Kaepernick brings a more dynamic element is legit.

I, however, still feel that we could have gotten this far... and win it all with either QB. So that is the part where I feel conflicted on his decision. Still feels wrong... Coach knowing how much this meant to Alex.. all the betrayal he's endured here.. and yet still opting to go with the more dynamic QB. I get it... I really do.. but I guess I still harbor some ill will towards the decision made. At the end of the day and as a fan? I really do just want the SB victories... that comes first.. and I can not feel too badly about a 27-28 year old man I never met that has made roughly 50 million dollars in his seemingly perfect life already.

( no following cheap shots, please... I answered your question the best I could.. despite seeing the potential for more WZ fireworks )

You have the right to your opinion but I don't agree with the "all the betrayal he's endured here". Besides the switch, what other betrayal was there? I also don't see the switch as betrayal...or maybe I'm just so used to betrayal in professional sports especially football where guys get cut on the spot for some of the wildest reasons.
Originally posted by InHarbsWeTrust:
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
I sense the trap.. but the question is.. fair. To be honest, I'm rather conflicted right now about him. Kaepernick truly is much better than I thought he would be at this point. There was no reason for me to know that as well as the coaches do... they get to see it all behind the scenes. So the point that Kaepernick brings a more dynamic element is legit.

I, however, still feel that we could have gotten this far... and win it all with either QB. So that is the part where I feel conflicted on his decision. Still feels wrong... Coach knowing how much this meant to Alex.. all the betrayal he's endured here.. and yet still opting to go with the more dynamic QB. I get it... I really do.. but I guess I still harbor some ill will towards the decision made. At the end of the day and as a fan? I really do just want the SB victories... that comes first.. and I can not feel too badly about a 27-28 year old man I never met that has made roughly 50 million dollars in his seemingly perfect life already.

( no following cheap shots, please... I answered your question the best I could.. despite seeing the potential for more WZ fireworks )

You have the right to your opinion but I don't agree with the "all the betrayal he's endured here". Besides the switch, what other betrayal was there? I also don't see the switch as betrayal...or maybe I'm just so used to betrayal in professional sports especially football where guys get cut on the spot for some of the wildest reasons.

Nolan throwing him under the bus.... JTO being named starter without competition...
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by BrianGO:
Originally posted by dj43:
Larry Krueger, one of the staff at KNBR in San Francisco, had some interesting comments yesterday on Alex Smith's situation with the 49ers. He noted all the back and forth, particularly in the area that "the 49ers should do the right thing by Alex and reward him with a free release so he could find the best possible situation for him." So he decided to "use my sources with the 49ers" to see what their position might be.

What he learned was that Harbaalke is likely to play hardball with Smith in the offseason. They believe he is worth a 1st or at least a 2nd round draft choice and will try to trade him for such. However, they will not trade him to Arizona and would prefer to trade him to an AFC team if possible. If they cannot find a suitable trading partner, they will keep him as backup next season (the last of his current 3 year contract). They believe they can win a Super Bowl with this current roster and Smith as QB though they obviously prefer Kaepernick. They know that most of their key players are at the peak of their careers and the time to win it all is now. Therefore they are not willing to take a chance on Tolzien or some other rookie or FA. Smith's $8MILLION salary is less than over half the starting QBs in the league and roughly $2MILLION more than the backup average. Considering the quality of Alex' potential play in relief of an injured Kaepernick, they believe that keeping him on the roster would be worthwhile investment to assure that they can put a SB ring on the hands of players now on the roster. IOW, they are willing to go all in to win this season and next while Willis, Bowman, Crabtree and friends are healthy and at their prime.


That sounds fairly reasonable.
The question is whether or not Alex Smith would be OK with that situation. We don't know what is going on inside his head right now. Ironically, I think the better Kap plays, the more likely Smith would be OK with being in a backup role with this team next year, because he won't feel as insulted with losing his starting job.
That seems a reasonable conclusion.

Krueger asserts that given their preferences, both the 49ers and Smith would prefer he be somewhere else...and that is where the hardball stance comes in. They believe that Alex would continue to maintain his very level stance rather than make waves should they tell him "we tried to make a trade that would be acceptable to us but you are more valuable to us as a backup than what others were willing to offer." So they are telling him he has to wait another year to get his free agency status.
Jim and Trent are fooling themselfs if they think Alex will be okay with not being traded or let go.

He took it like a man this year but the dude is starting material and no way he's gonna just sit back and take being a backup next year.

The dude has to be seething inside. Lest we all forget, he was our coach last offseason - tought the O the WCO playbook that Jim gave him. If not for that, we probably start off way slower last year and who knows how that season would have gone. Then he gets us to the NFC championship game. Then he's in the top 5 this year in rating and gets benched after his HC was telling everybody he was elite.

Anybody really think he cares or wants to be a part of that now? Would any of us trust Jim or Trent if we were in Alex's shoes? No dam way.

I don't want a crappy locker room next year, its never a good thing.

Trade him for whatever you can get (probably a 3rd or 4th) and then use the money on the D.
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by ChazBoner:
Originally posted by nooj:
A first round pick for Smith? That is just crazy. I guess anything is possible, but I really can't see a team giving up a first for him.

if it was ever going to happen, it would be now. He showed progress this season. Couple that with a really weak QB draft class, and it could happen.

I read several draft "experts" that Geno Smith, the consensus best QB coming out this year, would be a 2nd round pick in an average year for QBs. So while I don't see KC giving up their #1, I could see them giving us their #2 which is almost the same as the 49ers having two #1 picks this spring. That would be a good deal for all parties, IMO.

Curious?? But whats an average year for QB's in a draft??

3 in the first round.
The point that is being ignored in all this is that if Krueger's sources are at all close to the truth, Harbaalke does not feel comfortable going forward with Tolzien as the #2. At that point, the 49ers are going to have to get something in exchange for Smith because they will have to find a #2 that they are comfortable with.

To re-state; everybody agrees it would be better all around if Smith were gone, but at what cost?
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Hey, for us, it would be good to keep Alex around as QB insurance. Let's face it... Colin is gonna be running around and taking hits frequently. So for this kind of QB... and for this kind of SB contending team.. it would be wise to make sure a QB injury doesn't leave your season in ruins. That alone would be worth the money to keep him around. Now, is Alex okay with being a backup while making damn good money? That, I really can't say. I doubt his hunger to start has diminished... and I really doubt he wants to be around Harbaugh at this point.

Hey oldman what do you think about our coach now ?

I sense the trap.. but the question is.. fair. To be honest, I'm rather conflicted right now about him. Kaepernick truly is much better than I thought he would be at this point. There was no reason for me to know that as well as the coaches do... they get to see it all behind the scenes. So the point that Kaepernick brings a more dynamic element is legit.

I, however, still feel that we could have gotten this far... and win it all with either QB. So that is the part where I feel conflicted on his decision. Still feels wrong... Coach knowing how much this meant to Alex.. all the betrayal he's endured here.. and yet still opting to go with the more dynamic QB. I get it... I really do.. but I guess I still harbor some ill will towards the decision made. At the end of the day and as a fan? I really do just want the SB victories... that comes first.. and I can not feel too badly about a 27-28 year old man I never met that has made roughly 50 million dollars in his seemingly perfect life already.

( no following cheap shots, please... I answered your question the best I could.. despite seeing the potential for more WZ fireworks )

no cheap shots, thats actually a fair answer.


Only thing I would have to say that its not Harbaugh's concern of all the betrayal he has endured here. Only thing Harbaugh is doing is going with the best guy he believe gives us the best chance to win.
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Hey, for us, it would be good to keep Alex around as QB insurance. Let's face it... Colin is gonna be running around and taking hits frequently. So for this kind of QB... and for this kind of SB contending team.. it would be wise to make sure a QB injury doesn't leave your season in ruins. That alone would be worth the money to keep him around. Now, is Alex okay with being a backup while making damn good money? That, I really can't say. I doubt his hunger to start has diminished... and I really doubt he wants to be around Harbaugh at this point.

Hey oldman what do you think about our coach now ?

I sense the trap.. but the question is.. fair. To be honest, I'm rather conflicted right now about him. Kaepernick truly is much better than I thought he would be at this point. There was no reason for me to know that as well as the coaches do... they get to see it all behind the scenes. So the point that Kaepernick brings a more dynamic element is legit.

I, however, still feel that we could have gotten this far... and win it all with either QB. So that is the part where I feel conflicted on his decision. Still feels wrong... Coach knowing how much this meant to Alex.. all the betrayal he's endured here.. and yet still opting to go with the more dynamic QB. I get it... I really do.. but I guess I still harbor some ill will towards the decision made. At the end of the day and as a fan? I really do just want the SB victories... that comes first.. and I can not feel too badly about a 27-28 year old man I never met that has made roughly 50 million dollars in his seemingly perfect life already.

( no following cheap shots, please... I answered your question the best I could.. despite seeing the potential for more WZ fireworks )

no cheap shots, thats actually a fair answer.


Only thing I would have to say that its not Harbaugh's concern of all the betrayal he has endured here. Only thing Harbaugh is doing is going with the best guy he believe gives us the best chance to win.

Yup that's true. Harbaugh is just about what's best for the team, the team, the team. I don't think Harbaugh necessarily handled it the best way though. Hyping Alex smith up so much and saying he's elite and saying he's our starting quarterback two days before he names Kap as the starter. So I could see how that might be seen as betrayal.

Mr. Mcgibblets you are a great poster and your post is exactly how I feel too. I believe we can win with either qb. I can't help but be a smith fan and I always wanted to see him win a superbowl with us to shut all of his haters up. He has endured a lot throughout his career and it was kind of bummer seeing him get benched, especially after playing at such a high level. It just always bothered me that Smith was put into such a s**tty situation with no talent around him and how many fans would constantly bash him. I always knew he had talent and could be a good qb. He finally is given a coach who knows what the hell he is doing and look at what happens? We go 13-3 in a lockout year and Smith is arguably a top 10 qb, just like that. Anyways, I'll always be an Alex Smith fan. He has great character and I wish fans treated him better. Got to ride with your team through thick and thin. It was just disgusting to see him repeatedly thrown under the bus and attacked by his coaches and fans. They couldn't understand that a qbs success relies on a lot more than just himself.
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Hey, for us, it would be good to keep Alex around as QB insurance. Let's face it... Colin is gonna be running around and taking hits frequently. So for this kind of QB... and for this kind of SB contending team.. it would be wise to make sure a QB injury doesn't leave your season in ruins. That alone would be worth the money to keep him around. Now, is Alex okay with being a backup while making damn good money? That, I really can't say. I doubt his hunger to start has diminished... and I really doubt he wants to be around Harbaugh at this point.

Hey oldman what do you think about our coach now ?

I sense the trap.. but the question is.. fair. To be honest, I'm rather conflicted right now about him. Kaepernick truly is much better than I thought he would be at this point. There was no reason for me to know that as well as the coaches do... they get to see it all behind the scenes. So the point that Kaepernick brings a more dynamic element is legit.

I, however, still feel that we could have gotten this far... and win it all with either QB. So that is the part where I feel conflicted on his decision. Still feels wrong... Coach knowing how much this meant to Alex.. all the betrayal he's endured here.. and yet still opting to go with the more dynamic QB. I get it... I really do.. but I guess I still harbor some ill will towards the decision made. At the end of the day and as a fan? I really do just want the SB victories... that comes first.. and I can not feel too badly about a 27-28 year old man I never met that has made roughly 50 million dollars in his seemingly perfect life already.

( no following cheap shots, please... I answered your question the best I could.. despite seeing the potential for more WZ fireworks )
I too am surprised and pleased with how Kaep has played and I don't really feel sorry for Smith, BUT the way it was handled by benching a concussed player was just wrong and sends the wrong message to the rest of the team. Harbaugh just plain screwed the pooch on this one. He could have started Smith in the Rams game and managed to replace him with Kaep at any time in the game and no harm done.
I have a harder time watching my loved 9ers now than I did when Nolan first started Smith when he wasn't ready. I understand about all of the arguments for winning now etc, but I have a real problem with the lack of ethics shown by Harbaugh. I know it's hard for some to believe but doing the right thing is more important than winning, even in the cutthroat business of the NFL.
Originally posted by dj43:
I read several draft "experts" that Geno Smith, the consensus best QB coming out this year, would be a 2nd round pick in an average year for QBs. So while I don't see KC giving up their #1, I could see them giving us their #2 which is almost the same as the 49ers having two #1 picks this spring. That would be a good deal for all parties, IMO.
This is what gives the 49ers a lot of leverage this spring and it is what many posters who think we will get a 4th or 5th round pick at best are overlooking. The QBs coming out now are going to do what rookie QBs traditionally do. Get drafted and sit for at least 1 full season before being allowed to start. The teams that are in search of a QB (particularly the teams that are picking 1-16) would be fools to burn a draft pick on any of the guys coming out. I'd rather use a 2nd or 3rd on a guy like Smith, especially if I have some pieces already in place (running game) like Jacksonville and Kansas City. You get a leader, a guy that can win, a good locker room player, and a guy who possibly has a chip on his shoulder with something to prove. It will be interesting to see how all of this plays out, but it isn't too often that proven quarterbacks are available in the prime of their careers.

Last time it happened was with Drew Brees and the Saints. I'm not saying that Smith is the equal of Brees, but the fact is, it doesn't happen. Smart teams don't sit and wait for the guy to be released and get into a bidding war with 6 or 7 other teams. You make a trade and get a guy with a VERY cap friendly contract. Now if the Niners are able to pull this off (a 2nd or even a high 3rd), wow. If they don't accept a 3rd, then I think that's not only an indictment on what the 49ers are looking for, but also of what they think of Tolzien at the moment. However considering what the Cardinals gave up for Kevin Kolb with a very small sample size of games to look at, what the Seahawks invested into Matt Fynn based off of ONE game, and the Raiders trading a first round pick for a QB that had been out of football for an entire year, something tells me asking for a 2nd round pick for a guy that will be 29 years old, with playoff experience isn't exactly unreasonable. BTW, didn't we trade a 2nd and a 4th for Steve Young who looked terrible in Tampa?
Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Hey, for us, it would be good to keep Alex around as QB insurance. Let's face it... Colin is gonna be running around and taking hits frequently. So for this kind of QB... and for this kind of SB contending team.. it would be wise to make sure a QB injury doesn't leave your season in ruins. That alone would be worth the money to keep him around. Now, is Alex okay with being a backup while making damn good money? That, I really can't say. I doubt his hunger to start has diminished... and I really doubt he wants to be around Harbaugh at this point.

Hey oldman what do you think about our coach now ?

I sense the trap.. but the question is.. fair. To be honest, I'm rather conflicted right now about him. Kaepernick truly is much better than I thought he would be at this point. There was no reason for me to know that as well as the coaches do... they get to see it all behind the scenes. So the point that Kaepernick brings a more dynamic element is legit.

I, however, still feel that we could have gotten this far... and win it all with either QB. So that is the part where I feel conflicted on his decision. Still feels wrong... Coach knowing how much this meant to Alex.. all the betrayal he's endured here.. and yet still opting to go with the more dynamic QB. I get it... I really do.. but I guess I still harbor some ill will towards the decision made. At the end of the day and as a fan? I really do just want the SB victories... that comes first.. and I can not feel too badly about a 27-28 year old man I never met that has made roughly 50 million dollars in his seemingly perfect life already.

( no following cheap shots, please... I answered your question the best I could.. despite seeing the potential for more WZ fireworks )

no cheap shots, thats actually a fair answer.


Only thing I would have to say that its not Harbaugh's concern of all the betrayal he has endured here. Only thing Harbaugh is doing is going with the best guy he believe gives us the best chance to win.

Yup that's true. Harbaugh is just about what's best for the team, the team, the team. I don't think Harbaugh necessarily handled it the best way though. Hyping Alex smith up so much and saying he's elite and saying he's our starting quarterback two days before he names Kap as the starter. So I could see how that might be seen as betrayal.

Mr. Mcgibblets you are a great poster and your post is exactly how I feel too. I believe we can win with either qb. I can't help but be a smith fan and I always wanted to see him win a superbowl with us to shut all of his haters up. He has endured a lot throughout his career and it was kind of bummer seeing him get benched, especially after playing at such a high level. It just always bothered me that Smith was put into such a s**tty situation with no talent around him and how many fans would constantly bash him. I always knew he had talent and could be a good qb. He finally is given a coach who knows what the hell he is doing and look at what happens? We go 13-3 in a lockout year and Smith is arguably a top 10 qb, just like that. Anyways, I'll always be an Alex Smith fan. He has great character and I wish fans treated him better. Got to ride with your team through thick and thin. It was just disgusting to see him repeatedly thrown under the bus and attacked by his coaches and fans. They couldn't understand that a qbs success relies on a lot more than just himself.

All this is where I am at as well. I still think Alex is a very good QB, but there's no denying Colin's ability puts him at a different level because of the run dynamic. Still not really okay with pulling a player because he was hurt when he's performing on that level...and one that has endured so much with this team...but you can't say there's been a significant drop off...even with all the rookie mistakes to contend with.
Originally posted by Born49R:
I too am surprised and pleased with how Kaep has played and I don't really feel sorry for Smith, BUT the way it was handled by benching a concussed player was just wrong and sends the wrong message to the rest of the team. Harbaugh just plain screwed the pooch on this one. He could have started Smith in the Rams game and managed to replace him with Kaep at any time in the game and no harm done.
I have a harder time watching my loved 9ers now than I did when Nolan first started Smith when he wasn't ready. I understand about all of the arguments for winning now etc, but I have a real problem with the lack of ethics shown by Harbaugh. I know it's hard for some to believe but doing the right thing is more important than winning, even in the cutthroat business of the NFL.

I have lost a lot of love for the 49ers this year. For me, it isn't just about winning. It is about winning the right way, treating players right, etc. I still want the 49ers to win the Super Bowl this year, but I find I have other things to do at game time now (before the playoffs) instead of watching the games, as I'm disappointed in Harbaugh. I used to read every word written about the Niners, but after the QB change I don't follow them nearly as closely. I loved the fact that Harbaugh was a player's guy, and was loyal and honest with the team. Now I don't believe any of that. Plus, I love the storyline of Smith finally leading his team to a Super Bowl victory after all he has endured. That would have been a great story, and I think he could have done it. I get that Kaepernick is special, but it still doesn't sit well with me. Maybe its because I'm an old dude now, and I like to see people rewarded for having done the right thing for a long time, and I feel/hope that experience is worth something.

If I were player, I wouldn't trust Harbaugh much anymore.
Originally posted by wwrivers:
Originally posted by Born49R:
I too am surprised and pleased with how Kaep has played and I don't really feel sorry for Smith, BUT the way it was handled by benching a concussed player was just wrong and sends the wrong message to the rest of the team. Harbaugh just plain screwed the pooch on this one. He could have started Smith in the Rams game and managed to replace him with Kaep at any time in the game and no harm done.
I have a harder time watching my loved 9ers now than I did when Nolan first started Smith when he wasn't ready. I understand about all of the arguments for winning now etc, but I have a real problem with the lack of ethics shown by Harbaugh. I know it's hard for some to believe but doing the right thing is more important than winning, even in the cutthroat business of the NFL.

I have lost a lot of love for the 49ers this year. For me, it isn't just about winning. It is about winning the right way, treating players right, etc. I still want the 49ers to win the Super Bowl this year, but I find I have other things to do at game time now (before the playoffs) instead of watching the games, as I'm disappointed in Harbaugh. I used to read every word written about the Niners, but after the QB change I don't follow them nearly as closely. I loved the fact that Harbaugh was a player's guy, and was loyal and honest with the team. Now I don't believe any of that. Plus, I love the storyline of Smith finally leading his team to a Super Bowl victory after all he has endured. That would have been a great story, and I think he could have done it. I get that Kaepernick is special, but it still doesn't sit well with me. Maybe its because I'm an old dude now, and I like to see people rewarded for having done the right thing for a long time, and I feel/hope that experience is worth something.

If I were player, I wouldn't trust Harbaugh much anymore.

You not a true fan of the team you seem more of a fan of a certain player.

team >>>> player
  • Kolohe
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Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by ChazBoner:
Originally posted by nooj:
A first round pick for Smith? That is just crazy. I guess anything is possible, but I really can't see a team giving up a first for him.

if it was ever going to happen, it would be now. He showed progress this season. Couple that with a really weak QB draft class, and it could happen.

I read several draft "experts" that Geno Smith, the consensus best QB coming out this year, would be a 2nd round pick in an average year for QBs. So while I don't see KC giving up their #1, I could see them giving us their #2 which is almost the same as the 49ers having two #1 picks this spring. That would be a good deal for all parties, IMO.

Curious?? But whats an average year for QB's in a draft??

3 in the first round.

Still a bad example to say 3 in the first round or average year for QB's. Well if its a class with Andrew Luck, RG3 and Tannehill, IMO I think he gets drafted ahead of Tannehill. But there's really no way to prove that unless there was an NFL GM in the house. And, if it were against Brady Quinn, JaMarcus Russel, Joe Flacco, Mark Sanchez and Josh Freeman, I definitely think he gets drafted ahead of them too.
Originally posted by wwrivers:
I have lost a lot of love for the 49ers this year. For me, it isn't just about winning. It is about winning the right way, treating players right, etc. I still want the 49ers to win the Super Bowl this year, but I find I have other things to do at game time now (before the playoffs) instead of watching the games, as I'm disappointed in Harbaugh. I used to read every word written about the Niners, but after the QB change I don't follow them nearly as closely. I loved the fact that Harbaugh was a player's guy, and was loyal and honest with the team. Now I don't believe any of that. Plus, I love the storyline of Smith finally leading his team to a Super Bowl victory after all he has endured. That would have been a great story, and I think he could have done it. I get that Kaepernick is special, but it still doesn't sit well with me. Maybe its because I'm an old dude now, and I like to see people rewarded for having done the right thing for a long time, and I feel/hope that experience is worth something.

If I were player, I wouldn't trust Harbaugh much anymore.

Isn't it part of a cach's job to put out his best team ?

Kudos to Harbaugh for making a tough decision.

Bill Walsh used to do that all the time, usually getting rid of a player a year too soon rather than a year to late.