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Why do you guys think our offense looked lame?

My problem with the switch has always been that they know that Smith is calm under pressure and is clutch, but they do not know this about CK. He is a gritty player and clutch, but how clutch? Turning over the team is a huge deal at this time of year and I hope they know what they are doing! As Don Shula and others have said, "If it works they're geniuses, if it doesn't..."
To much pistol
To many penaltys
Not enough Gire
Not enough PA
Play calling

The bolded are the main reason's for lame.

[ Edited by Jesu80ncleats on Dec 16, 2012 at 7:42 AM ]
Originally posted by verb1der:
This is why I am completely hooked on the strategy behind the scenes. And I was really interested in your thoughts because you're one of the handful who offer valid insights with an open mind.

A couple months ago, I kept criticizing our offense saying that it lacked "explosiveness", and you were the one telling me to be patient and because they're still in the process of installing the deep packages and such, and I actually took your word for it, because it made the most sense.

Now, we almost have completely switched roles. My observations of these past few games are that Harbaugh and Roman are in full transition mode out of necessity. LMJ and Jenkins were not supposed to suit up this year. Imo, they were red-shirted as a future project to implement this "Q" formation during the off-season. But due to unexpected key injuries, they're forced to make the transition for the sake of having a quicker learning curve (specifically for LMJ) because his skill set is undeniably perfect for this scheme. And yes I agree that "it isn't producing anything more than the previous regime", but I'm willing to be patient as long as there's no major drop off in overall production. It's getting better!

Now for the record, I do NOT want this to be our primary scheme. In a perfect world, we would still run the most innovating run scheme to dictate the game, but unfortunately we cannot afford to run those extensive run packages like we used to because Gore cannot carry that load (I always see him signal for a sub after a hard run). That's why I think people have no idea how crucial it was losing Kendall Hunter, he was by no means a "backup RB" he was a co-starter.

Anyways, Harbaugh and Roman are adapting, and playing the hand that's dealt. If you can't see the method behind the madness, then you're missing out!

That's where we currently stand.

We'll see happens! Good discussion nonetheless NC!

Absolutely...always try my very best to be objective and let the film study form my opinions so I very appreciate your comments. One thing I haven't caught up on is first down production. We were #1 in the NFL under Alex the whole season...so I'm curious if there is any drop off with CK (I would certainly expected some drop off given how young he is).

As to your other points, it's fair to say we still haven't instituted the deep package yet. LOL. One incomplete shot a game isn't going to back anyone out of stacking the box unfortunately. But I can understand your enthusiasm...it looks like what is being installed now is the new "Q." I think this is more evidence I was completely off track when I thought we were installing a more pure WCO with standard installation over a three year period...hence why I always reminded ppl to be patient. But over this past year, reviewing the Bill Walsh WCO videos, etc. I found myself saying the same exact thing Chuck said, "I don't what the heck this (offense) is!"

What's interesting about the "Q" is that this may have been the plan all along knowing at some point, CK would be their man. And now that he is...James is in there and Jenkins will soon be added, THIS is HaRoman's time to incorporate this as it fits into their conservative game plan (safer than the spread or deeper passes); it adds another element like you said.

And man, I couldn't agree more re: Gore/Hunter. Hunter was a critical loss and if James can even produce half much as he did at this juncture I'd be ecstatic. So you're right...the hand has been forced. Now with Manningham out, maybe we'll see more of his incorporation as well.

In the end, I genuinely hope you are right...this new wrinkle will aid our running game while we (praying) work on also evolving the passing game at the same time and getting all our young (and other explosive) weapons more and more involved. I certainly have my reservations about a QB running with the ball (they have to do that enough with our OL and pass blocking) and one hit can end any progress. My concern is merely production within traditional WCO passing.
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
The problem is we are still trying to figure out exactly what we have. 4 games really isn't a whole lot to really push too much on a young QB. We're playing safe but eventually we are going to have to go balls to the wall. I think tomorrow will really show us a lot. I honestly have no clue how this offense is going to perform tomorrow. Will we continue to be conservative? Will we start trying new things?

I just don't know? Excited to find out though.

This is how I look at. We can only go off what we've seen. It's funny how some people continue to use their crystal balls to tell everyone how the offense is going to do. The same people that predicted explosiveness are now reaching for reasons on why they felt Kaep was the answer.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by truekingcarlos:
My point was we are performing less effectively under Kap. I'm confused by your response, lol.

Well, I'm accepting that Harbaugh and Roman believe CK gives the team a better chance to win this year. I don't believe they would make the change for some future betterment. I disagree but am not so egotistical to think my knowledge greater than theirs.

So the ultimate goal would be to give CK enough games before the playoffs to become the force they believe he will be. I agree that Smith looked better, more consistent, than CK thus far but after a few games that is to be expected.

I suppose it's also possible that Smith will start in the playoffs or before but that is likely only due to injury. If you are correct and CK struggles and then plays poorly in the playoffs the coaches will really face some credibility issues...NLFN and others will pile on and all the good will Baalke and Harbaugh had will go down the drain...OK...not all but much!
Gotcha, I now understand the logical conclusion you were making. It's possible I suppose, but I think its probably more related to JH's desire to get CK going this year, for whatever reason. Some have said its to establish our future QB now, instead of later, I suppose that could be the case, but frankly, as happy as it makes some on this board to bench Alex, it's still a move that has a greater chance of backfiring against our goal of a SB than it was to keep our best QB on the field.

This is probably the only move I've disagreed with from our management. I thought next year would have been the safer bet to start Kap.
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Originally posted by AKfanster:
Originally posted by truekingcarlos:
Not to sound like a jerk, that's not my intent, but like I said just look at the diminishing yards on the passing stats, he's passed for less yards each game, which indicates the defenses are catching on to his habits, and how he reads the D. We are also averaging less rushing yards per game under Kap than Smith (leaving out the rushing stats in the Rams game due to the change in QB ingame), I believe that's probably connected with the calls at the line of scrimmage. He's not as good at reading the D to change the play as Smith is.
Kap: 142
Smith: 169

Are we winning? So far yes, but I am not liking the trend.


I agree. What happened to the "explosive" offense we were gonna see with Kaep starting? I just don't see it. Maybe it's the playcalling?

The problem is we are still trying to figure out exactly what we have. 4 games really isn't a whole lot to really push too much on a young QB. We're playing safe but eventually we are going to have to go balls to the wall. I think tomorrow will really show us a lot. I honestly have no clue how this offense is going to perform tomorrow. Will we continue to be conservative? Will we start trying new things?

I just don't know? Excited to find out though.

AK: I think its just that teams started covering the long ball after the Chicago game and Kap hasn't adjusted to it yet, notice he's started taking more and more sacks ala Alex? Alex haters were praising Kap for not getting sacked during the Bears/Saints games, but that's all changed now, he's looking more and more like Alex, but without the saavy calls at the line of scrimmage.

Jiks: True, the sample is still relatively small, but I would be far more comfortable with our starter if the trend at a minimum was consistent, as it stands now, it's actually trending downward. I don't like it. I want our starter to be consistently reliable, I still believe Alex gives us that more than Kap does. It could change of course, but like I said, we have a downward trend here, and it's being hidden because our defense is scoring TD's, and our special teams is getting turnovers.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by verb1der:
This is why I am completely hooked on the strategy behind the scenes. And I was really interested in your thoughts because you're one of the handful who offer valid insights with an open mind.

A couple months ago, I kept criticizing our offense saying that it lacked "explosiveness", and you were the one telling me to be patient and because they're still in the process of installing the deep packages and such, and I actually took your word for it, because it made the most sense.

Now, we almost have completely switched roles. My observations of these past few games are that Harbaugh and Roman are in full transition mode out of necessity. LMJ and Jenkins were not supposed to suit up this year. Imo, they were red-shirted as a future project to implement this "Q" formation during the off-season. But due to unexpected key injuries, they're forced to make the transition for the sake of having a quicker learning curve (specifically for LMJ) because his skill set is undeniably perfect for this scheme. And yes I agree that "it isn't producing anything more than the previous regime", but I'm willing to be patient as long as there's no major drop off in overall production. It's getting better!

Now for the record, I do NOT want this to be our primary scheme. In a perfect world, we would still run the most innovating run scheme to dictate the game, but unfortunately we cannot afford to run those extensive run packages like we used to because Gore cannot carry that load (I always see him signal for a sub after a hard run). That's why I think people have no idea how crucial it was losing Kendall Hunter, he was by no means a "backup RB" he was a co-starter.

Anyways, Harbaugh and Roman are adapting, and playing the hand that's dealt. If you can't see the method behind the madness, then you're missing out!

That's where we currently stand.

We'll see happens! Good discussion nonetheless NC!

Absolutely...always try my very best to be objective and let the film study form my opinions so I very appreciate your comments. One thing I haven't caught up on is first down production. We were #1 in the NFL under Alex the whole season...so I'm curious if there is any drop off with CK (I would certainly expected some drop off given how young he is).

As to your other points, it's fair to say we still haven't instituted the deep package yet. LOL. One incomplete shot a game isn't going to back anyone out of stacking the box unfortunately. But I can understand your enthusiasm...it looks like what is being installed now is the new "Q." I think this is more evidence I was completely off track when I thought we were installing a more pure WCO with standard installation over a three year period...hence why I always reminded ppl to be patient. But over this past year, reviewing the Bill Walsh WCO videos, etc. I found myself saying the same exact thing Chuck said, "I don't what the heck this (offense) is!"

What's interesting about the "Q" is that this may have been the plan all along knowing at some point, CK would be their man. And now that he is...James is in there and Jenkins will soon be added, THIS is HaRoman's time to incorporate this as it fits into their conservative game plan (safer than the spread or deeper passes); it adds another element like you said.

And man, I couldn't agree more re: Gore/Hunter. Hunter was a critical loss and if James can even produce half much as he did at this juncture I'd be ecstatic. So you're right...the hand has been forced. Now with Manningham out, maybe we'll see more of his incorporation as well.

In the end, I genuinely hope you are right...this new wrinkle will aid our running game while we (praying) work on also evolving the passing game at the same time and getting all our young (and other explosive) weapons more and more involved. I certainly have my reservations about a QB running with the ball (they have to do that enough with our OL and pass blocking) and one hit can end any progress. My concern is merely production within traditional WCO passing.

Re: first down production, I believe Hunter's injury has a direct reflection on that stat. His 5.2 ypc is nearly elite. That's why I don't call him a backup RB but a co-starter. Imagine having 2 RBs both averaging 5+ ypc, that's just unheard of!!! I hate thinking about it, because it's a depressing loss.

Anyways, I re-watched the Dolphins game yesterday. They ran the Q 17 times the entire game, and LMJ looked really comfortable and had a couple nice runs (including an one on the inside). Hunter used to be the primary RB in this formation and I can honestly say that LMJ poses an equivalent threat. He's looks comfortable, runs pretty hard, and is very quick in his cuts. As long as they have a RB threat in the Q formation, it'll keep defenses honest, and eventually open up big plays like the 50 yard flea flicker bomb to Moss, that fell RIGHT in his hands!

I'm definitely very enthusiastic NC. I know the conventional wisdom says pocket passing prevails, and I agree it does. And that's what makes it exciting, because Kaep CAN be a pocket passer (bears & saints game), AND he can produce in the run game.

Anyways, check out Rodney Harrison thoughts on the difficulty of playing vs Bellicheck, and the QB that gives the 49ers a better advantage.

Quote: Harrison, who played with Jim Harbaugh from 1999 to 2000 with the Chargers, said his former teammate didn't do opposing defensive coordinators any favors by inserting Kaepernick over Alex Smith.

"When you have a guy that talented, why wouldn't you?" Harrison said. "You'd be an idiot not to play him. When I game-plan against Alex Smith, 'OK, let's stop Frank Gore. OK, maybe there's such-and-such in the slot. Maybe we'll double-team (Randy) Moss when he comes in on 2nd-and-14 just in case there's a deep ball.' It's a simple game plan.

"But you have to game-plan against Kaepernick, plain and simple. You have to take him into consideration. Who's going to spy him? Where are we going to blitz him? Are we going to keep him in the pocket? He changes everything."



Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/giants/article/Belichick-s-know-how-challenges-49ers-4121687.php#ixzz2FErWbkOG

Our offense looked lame because the team was adjusting to Kaep. JH knew that it would take the rest of the season for Kaep to adjust and he took a calculated risk that is paying off so far. I dont understand why people have to read into things. JH felt Kaep was still better than Alex.
Great discussion. I don't know if you guys caught the Nevada game yesterday, but they showed a lot of the stuff we may see out of the Q stuff. It is a really fun offense to watch and is effective running the ball and setting up play action.
Originally posted by verb1der:
Re: first down production, I believe Hunter's injury has a direct reflection on that stat. His 5.2 ypc is nearly elite. That's why I don't call him a backup RB but a co-starter. Imagine having 2 RBs both averaging 5+ ypc, that's just unheard of!!! I hate thinking about it, because it's a depressing loss.

Anyways, I re-watched the Dolphins game yesterday. They ran the Q 17 times the entire game, and LMJ looked really comfortable and had a couple nice runs (including an one on the inside). Hunter used to be the primary RB in this formation and I can honestly say that LMJ poses an equivalent threat. He's looks comfortable, runs pretty hard, and is very quick in his cuts. As long as they have a RB threat in the Q formation, it'll keep defenses honest, and eventually open up big plays like the 50 yard flea flicker bomb to Moss, that fell RIGHT in his hands!

I'm definitely very enthusiastic NC. I know the conventional wisdom says pocket passing prevails, and I agree it does. And that's what makes it exciting, because Kaep CAN be a pocket passer (bears & saints game), AND he can produce in the run game.

Anyways, check out Rodney Harrison thoughts on the difficulty of playing vs Bellicheck, and the QB that gives the 49ers a better advantage.

Quote: Harrison, who played with Jim Harbaugh from 1999 to 2000 with the Chargers, said his former teammate didn't do opposing defensive coordinators any favors by inserting Kaepernick over Alex Smith.

"When you have a guy that talented, why wouldn't you?" Harrison said. "You'd be an idiot not to play him. When I game-plan against Alex Smith, 'OK, let's stop Frank Gore. OK, maybe there's such-and-such in the slot. Maybe we'll double-team (Randy) Moss when he comes in on 2nd-and-14 just in case there's a deep ball.' It's a simple game plan.

"But you have to game-plan against Kaepernick, plain and simple. You have to take him into consideration. Who's going to spy him? Where are we going to blitz him? Are we going to keep him in the pocket? He changes everything."

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/giants/article/Belichick-s-know-how-challenges-49ers-4121687.php#ixzz2FErWbkOG


Absolutely! Hunter was one of my favorite players, no doubt. I felt very happy with James and genuinely felt all along he was in a similar mold as Hunter. So if he can continue to produce in Hunter-like fashion, I'll be stoked...Gore will be stoked and Roman will be most stoked of them all.

The first production I was highlighting all year (about 61% of 4+ yards) was d/t a number of factors (running, passing, QB line calls, reading defenses, play calls, etc.). We have been outstanding all year long...it's where most of our explosive plays and TD's come from. I wouldn't expect too much of a drop off with CK and the new offense. But I am intrigued.

17 times? Wow, that's pretty significant...that may be more proof that this is more of an offensive evolutionary change moreover a new "wrinkle." I'm VERY curious to see how much we'll run the Q tonight and the next 2 games. It should be very telling.

Keep up that enthusiasm and keep pointing out your perspectives. I'm sure fans are still struggling with the decision in general (more the timing of it and what's in line; unfinished business) and are currently struggling to see the difference. The good news is that both Alex/CK camps are starting to see the "truth" now - that there were many other factors that were affecting the QB's play/decision-making/production more than we all realized.

But like you said, if this is part of the evolution, I highly doubt anyone would care about the "style" as long as the production level increases and becomes more explosive and productive and consistent.

Nice compliments by Rodney Harrison. HaRoman are always looking for that extra little add to give the defense something else to think about and stay off-balanced. No doubt CK has many abilities...here's to hoping we play to ALL of his strengths and #6!
Originally posted by b9er37:
Great discussion. I don't know if you guys caught the Nevada game yesterday, but they showed a lot of the stuff we may see out of the Q stuff. It is a really fun offense to watch and is effective running the ball and setting up play action.

Don't watch college football but what kinds of things did you see...any thoughts/ideas given Roman and our personnel that you may see translated over to our current offense?
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by b9er37:
Great discussion. I don't know if you guys caught the Nevada game yesterday, but they showed a lot of the stuff we may see out of the Q stuff. It is a really fun offense to watch and is effective running the ball and setting up play action.

Don't watch college football but what kinds of things did you see...any thoughts/ideas given Roman and our personnel that you may see translated over to our current offense?

The run game by both the back and qb were very effective, and the play action to the te resulted in at least two long tds. the way the offense is run puts a lot of pressure on the defense to cover all areas of the field. The combination of a qb who can run and throw is lethal at the college level. I'm curious to see how well Kap can run it at the pro level. I have a feeling the offense is going to get even more creative and exciting.
[ Edited by b9er37 on Dec 16, 2012 at 12:01 PM ]
Karma
Originally posted by b9er37:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by b9er37:
Great discussion. I don't know if you guys caught the Nevada game yesterday, but they showed a lot of the stuff we may see out of the Q stuff. It is a really fun offense to watch and is effective running the ball and setting up play action.

Don't watch college football but what kinds of things did you see...any thoughts/ideas given Roman and our personnel that you may see translated over to our current offense?

The run game by both the back and qb were very effective, and the play action to the te resulted in at least two long tds. the way the offense is run puts a lot of pressure on the defense to cover all areas of the field. The combination of a qb who can run and throw is lethal at the college level. I'm curious to see how well Kap can run it at the pro level. I have a feeling the offense is going to get even more creative and exciting.

Thank you! We will certainly be looking for it more tonight.
Originally posted by smithgdwg:
Karma
Lol. I said this the first time I posted her after Harbaugh made the move. You might be more right than you think.