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Why do you guys think our offense looked lame?

i wish david shaw would've came out instead of gay ass roman.
Originally posted by pdizo916:
i wish david shaw would've came out instead of gay ass roman.



But he helped wall-e get back to Earth!
Originally posted by verb1der:
I get your point regarding conventional passing. But do you think that your opinion is influenced primarily by the last two games? Remember this is chess not checkers, every opponent brings a different challenge, so it becomes hard to sustain offensive production on a weekly basis. But if you want to base it strictly on stats, then yes it's about the same.

Anyways..

You're saying "playoff teams will just gear up to stop the run". Meanwhile, the Bears came into monday night with the mentality to "stop the run and make ck beat you with his arm", they got carved up!

Then come the Rams, Fisher's mentality was "Ok, let's scheme to stop the pass and force CK to be like Alex Smith.". They took away all of CK's deep routes and forced 49ers to beat them by playing the short, game managing type game, yes CK struggled, but he overcame in many ways. Then here comes the Dolphins playing copycat in their approach, but this time Harbaugh and Roman were ready, which brings me to my main point..

Because of key injuries (hunter, kw,) Harbaugh and staff were forced to somewhat "re-evaluate" the strength of this unit. They know they have to make up for the loss of Hunter's production, since Gore cannot carry a full load. And only a fool would use LMJ like Kendall Hunter, I'm sure the coaches know this, therefore the offense must somehow "evolve" by engineering it to maximize CK & LMJ's strengths, and that's where the Pistol formation comes to play.

The combo of CK & LMJ is the perfect ingredient to have when attempting to execute a Pistol scheme. They should interview Chris Ault from Nevada (the inventor of this offense) what's his opinion, and I bet he would agree. If Roman can innovate the run game, it's safe to say he can also innovate our overall offense, it was on full display last Sunday.

Sooner or later continuity will develop, just wait and see, it's going to be explosive come playoff time.

ver...

Here is some interesting points from the source (Roman) himself. It certainly doesn't dismiss your point but if you take this face value, it's just another wrinkle. That said, if he's been studying this "Q" offense and it's ties to CK, we could be looking at the start of an installation of a totally new offense.

http://blogs.mercurynews.com/49ers/2012/12/13/roman-paints-a-picture-on-vernon-davis-incredible-shrinking-production/utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+49ersHotRead+%2849ers+Hot+Read%29

I don't remember you guys practicing the Pistol too much during training camp. Is that something that you've really started doing over the last month now that Kap's been in?
"We've done some Pistol in training camp. We did it at Stanford some. It's just another formation and it's really all it is, just another formation."

How much time did you spend with University of Nevada head coach Chris Ault, talking about it?
"Yeah, did spend some time with Chris. About three years ago, made the trek to Nevada and visited with him and his staff. That was very valuable time spent. He was very accommodating and it was very interesting as a coach to go really learn something totally new. And he's a very good football coach that was very accommodating. So, it was good."

So you're watching the film, watching your quarterback now, back then.
"I was, yeah, matter of fact, yeah."

What are the common elements defenses are doing to take away TE Vernon Davis? Three catches the last three games total, so what's going on?
"I'm not going to get into the X's and O's of things, but every team's different, every situation's different. I'd say that they're paying a lot of attention to him at times. On [QB Colin Kaepernick] Kap's 50-yard run a couple of weeks ago, there was 10 guys. Vernon ran that way and there was 10 guys on that side of the field. So, I think that kind of paints a picture."

Was that an exaggeration?
"No exaggeration. [RB] Frank [Gore] cut the last guy."

We saw the Redskins running the Pistol the other night. Are there other teams besides you and the Redskins that run it? Do the Panthers run it?
"I believe the Panthers. I have seen the Panthers get in that formation, yeah. But the Redskins probably do it more than anybody. It's just another formation. There's a lot different ways you can build formations and rebuild formations. But, it's just another formation. I think the Redskins definitely do it more than anybody and we're just kind of starting to tap into it now."

Do you call it the Pistol when you have the three guys in the backfield or do you call it something else internally?
"We don't call it the Pistol, no. It's two syllables. We just use one syllable. It's a 'Q' formation."

Have you talked to Chris Ault at all on Nevada just to pick your brain?
"A couple of years ago. Yeah, probably three years ago, three or four years ago, leading into the, what was it, before the 2010 season."



As to your points: My influence is and can only be based on the small sample size and well, the history of the NFL. Its certainly a little too early to consider a revolutionary-stye offense esp. if it isn't producing anything more than the previous regime (and still looks the same overall minus a few wrinkles and style-comparisons). That said, it would be interesting to note esp. now with James in there and perhaps, Jenkins being incorporated more, if we run more and more of the "Q" offense. How many snaps were we in the Q last week?

While I certainly don't want to discredit what CK actually did under the big lights on a national stage against the Bears, I also have to be realistic and believe that game plan was originally designed for a healthy Smith given the last second order by the Docs to sit him. That said, b/c CK was playing they had no clue how to play him but did stack 8 in the box more often than not. And guess what we did? We almost went spread. This was the first game all year where we actually game planned to get VD in single coverage (6 of 8 times and he caught 7 of those).

If anything, this highlights the fact that if a team does stack the box and run blitzes 8+ between the tackles, we've shown the potential to beat them no matter who's at QB. If a team like the Bears are going to play man-to-man b/c of this, we have the potential (VD, Williams, Walker, Manningham, Crabtree, etc. that game) to beat them through the air and off tackle with Hunter/James and then down their throats late with Gore between the tackles.

But that's not what Roman has called since then. In the Bears game, he was creative in how he got VD open early and often as it just opened up the offense overall, wide open. VD has since disappeared. That's scheme and it sure isn't innovative. The Rams tied us with ONE single weapon with a broken collar bone in Amendola. Jeff F. was VERY creative in moving him around and creating mismatches. He killed us. We have x5 the weapons they have.

I love your enthusiasm and optimism that we're morph quickly in time for the playoffs adding more and more Q offense as a weapon for CK, James and maybe, Jenkins et. al as well. I will be watching these next three gams closely to see if we see more and more Q b/c of your perspective/theory.
I think its smart to use the pistol, because the coaches are playing to the QBs strengths.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by verb1der:
I get your point regarding conventional passing. But do you think that your opinion is influenced primarily by the last two games? Remember this is chess not checkers, every opponent brings a different challenge, so it becomes hard to sustain offensive production on a weekly basis. But if you want to base it strictly on stats, then yes it's about the same.

Anyways..

You're saying "playoff teams will just gear up to stop the run". Meanwhile, the Bears came into monday night with the mentality to "stop the run and make ck beat you with his arm", they got carved up!

Then come the Rams, Fisher's mentality was "Ok, let's scheme to stop the pass and force CK to be like Alex Smith.". They took away all of CK's deep routes and forced 49ers to beat them by playing the short, game managing type game, yes CK struggled, but he overcame in many ways. Then here comes the Dolphins playing copycat in their approach, but this time Harbaugh and Roman were ready, which brings me to my main point..

Because of key injuries (hunter, kw,) Harbaugh and staff were forced to somewhat "re-evaluate" the strength of this unit. They know they have to make up for the loss of Hunter's production, since Gore cannot carry a full load. And only a fool would use LMJ like Kendall Hunter, I'm sure the coaches know this, therefore the offense must somehow "evolve" by engineering it to maximize CK & LMJ's strengths, and that's where the Pistol formation comes to play.

The combo of CK & LMJ is the perfect ingredient to have when attempting to execute a Pistol scheme. They should interview Chris Ault from Nevada (the inventor of this offense) what's his opinion, and I bet he would agree. If Roman can innovate the run game, it's safe to say he can also innovate our overall offense, it was on full display last Sunday.

Sooner or later continuity will develop, just wait and see, it's going to be explosive come playoff time.

ver...

Here is some interesting points from the source (Roman) himself. It certainly doesn't dismiss your point but if you take this face value, it's just another wrinkle. That said, if he's been studying this "Q" offense and it's ties to CK, we could be looking at the start of an installation of a totally new offense.

http://blogs.mercurynews.com/49ers/2012/12/13/roman-paints-a-picture-on-vernon-davis-incredible-shrinking-production/utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+49ersHotRead+%2849ers+Hot+Read%29

I don't remember you guys practicing the Pistol too much during training camp. Is that something that you've really started doing over the last month now that Kap's been in?
"We've done some Pistol in training camp. We did it at Stanford some. It's just another formation and it's really all it is, just another formation."

How much time did you spend with University of Nevada head coach Chris Ault, talking about it?
"Yeah, did spend some time with Chris. About three years ago, made the trek to Nevada and visited with him and his staff. That was very valuable time spent. He was very accommodating and it was very interesting as a coach to go really learn something totally new. And he's a very good football coach that was very accommodating. So, it was good."

So you're watching the film, watching your quarterback now, back then.
"I was, yeah, matter of fact, yeah."

What are the common elements defenses are doing to take away TE Vernon Davis? Three catches the last three games total, so what's going on?
"I'm not going to get into the X's and O's of things, but every team's different, every situation's different. I'd say that they're paying a lot of attention to him at times. On [QB Colin Kaepernick] Kap's 50-yard run a couple of weeks ago, there was 10 guys. Vernon ran that way and there was 10 guys on that side of the field. So, I think that kind of paints a picture."

Was that an exaggeration?
"No exaggeration. [RB] Frank [Gore] cut the last guy."

We saw the Redskins running the Pistol the other night. Are there other teams besides you and the Redskins that run it? Do the Panthers run it?
"I believe the Panthers. I have seen the Panthers get in that formation, yeah. But the Redskins probably do it more than anybody. It's just another formation. There's a lot different ways you can build formations and rebuild formations. But, it's just another formation. I think the Redskins definitely do it more than anybody and we're just kind of starting to tap into it now."

Do you call it the Pistol when you have the three guys in the backfield or do you call it something else internally?
"We don't call it the Pistol, no. It's two syllables. We just use one syllable. It's a 'Q' formation."

Have you talked to Chris Ault at all on Nevada just to pick your brain?
"A couple of years ago. Yeah, probably three years ago, three or four years ago, leading into the, what was it, before the 2010 season."



As to your points: My influence is and can only be based on the small sample size and well, the history of the NFL. Its certainly a little too early to consider a revolutionary-stye offense esp. if it isn't producing anything more than the previous regime (and still looks the same overall minus a few wrinkles and style-comparisons). That said, it would be interesting to note esp. now with James in there and perhaps, Jenkins being incorporated more, if we run more and more of the "Q" offense. How many snaps were we in the Q last week?

While I certainly don't want to discredit what CK actually did under the big lights on a national stage against the Bears, I also have to be realistic and believe that game plan was originally designed for a healthy Smith given the last second order by the Docs to sit him. That said, b/c CK was playing they had no clue how to play him but did stack 8 in the box more often than not. And guess what we did? We almost went spread. This was the first game all year where we actually game planned to get VD in single coverage (6 of 8 times and he caught 7 of those).

If anything, this highlights the fact that if a team does stack the box and run blitzes 8+ between the tackles, we've shown the potential to beat them no matter who's at QB. If a team like the Bears are going to play man-to-man b/c of this, we have the potential (VD, Williams, Walker, Manningham, Crabtree, etc. that game) to beat them through the air and off tackle with Hunter/James and then down their throats late with Gore between the tackles.

But that's not what Roman has called since then. In the Bears game, he was creative in how he got VD open early and often as it just opened up the offense overall, wide open. VD has since disappeared. That's scheme and it sure isn't innovative. The Rams tied us with ONE single weapon with a broken collar bone in Amendola. Jeff F. was VERY creative in moving him around and creating mismatches. He killed us. We have x5 the weapons they have.

I love your enthusiasm and optimism that we're morph quickly in time for the playoffs adding more and more Q offense as a weapon for CK, James and maybe, Jenkins et. al as well. I will be watching these next three gams closely to see if we see more and more Q b/c of your perspective/theory.

This is why I am completely hooked on the strategy behind the scenes. And I was really interested in your thoughts because you're one of the handful who offer valid insights with an open mind.

A couple months ago, I kept criticizing our offense saying that it lacked "explosiveness", and you were the one telling me to be patient and because they're still in the process of installing the deep packages and such, and I actually took your word for it, because it made the most sense.

Now, we almost have completely switched roles. My observations of these past few games are that Harbaugh and Roman are in full transition mode out of necessity. LMJ and Jenkins were not supposed to suit up this year. Imo, they were red-shirted as a future project to implement this "Q" formation during the off-season. But due to unexpected key injuries, they're forced to make the transition for the sake of having a quicker learning curve (specifically for LMJ) because his skill set is undeniably perfect for this scheme. And yes I agree that "it isn't producing anything more than the previous regime", but I'm willing to be patient as long as there's no major drop off in overall production. It's getting better!

Now for the record, I do NOT want this to be our primary scheme. In a perfect world, we would still run the most innovating run scheme to dictate the game, but unfortunately we cannot afford to run those extensive run packages like we used to because Gore cannot carry that load (I always see him signal for a sub after a hard run). That's why I think people have no idea how crucial it was losing Kendall Hunter, he was by no means a "backup RB" he was a co-starter.

Anyways, Harbaugh and Roman are adapting, and playing the hand that's dealt. If you can't see the method behind the madness, then you're missing out!

That's where we currently stand.

We'll see happens! Good discussion nonetheless NC!
Roman goes to sleep up in the box and cheesy pornstache sideline guy calls the plays.
Most good offenses have bread and butter plays that the team does so well that they are almost indefensible. I do not really see those plays yet for the 9ers. They seem to have so many plays that none have become a signature of the team. If you look over the past year, the wheel route was a staple last year but is being defensed better this year. Before that VD had the seem route, that has been seldom used this year.

The Walsh years had some plays that just naturally opened up other plays so they could be used almost every game, the slant being my favorite. This year and last the offense seems to be building, building, building...but never really playing pedal to the metal.

Is it a matter of the coaches being control freaks and wanting to dictate a power running game when variety is called for? Or are jumbo plays being stuffed just a matter of the odds bearing out? I know there is a chance that many of us have idealized the Walsh years and that the offenses were probably not as dominant as we remember, but I'm sure they were not as halting, as if the fuel is polluted with water.
[ Edited by dtg_9er on Dec 14, 2012 at 4:22 PM ]
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Most good offenses have bread and butter plays that the team does so well that they are almost indefensible. I do not really see those plays yet for the 9ers. They seem to have so many plays that none have become a signature of the team. If you look over the past year, the wheel route was a staple last year but is being defensed better this year. Before that VD had the seem route, that has been seldom used this year.

The Walsh years had some plays that just naturally opened up other plays so they could be used almost every game, the slant being my favorite. This year and last the offense seems to be building, building, building...but never really playing pedal to the metal.

Is it a matter of the coaches being control freaks and wanting to dictate a power running game when variety is called for? Or are jumbo plays being stuffed just a matter of the odds bearing out? I know there is a chance that many of us have idealized the Walsh years and that the offenses were probably not as dominant as we remember, but I'm sure they were not as halting, as if the fuel is polluted with water.

The read option with Kaep has provided a lot of scored this year and big plays.
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
The read option with Kaep has provided a lot of scored this year and big plays.

I'm not referring to one play as much as a group of key plays that help balance the offense and keep the defenses honest. A play can be defensed, but when the defense you use to stop play A opens up play B, that more of what I'm talking about. An example is the HB blocking over the middle, then running short outlets over the middle and carrying the ball over the middle. If they are called at the right time and one of the is working well it opens up the other two.

If the read option is used to open up swing passes, or reverses, or counters that's more of what I am speaking of. It seems that the 9ers do not stick with any set of plays to really set up the D. Perhaps I am being too critical but it just seems to me that they are throwing spaghetti at the wall and hoping some of it sticks. Of course, they have been able to win with this MO so I guess all it good. Will be really excited this weekend to watch SF in NE. A great test for both the O and D.
[ Edited by dtg_9er on Dec 14, 2012 at 4:32 PM ]
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
The read option with Kaep has provided a lot of scored this year and big plays.

I'm not referring to one play as much as a group of key plays that help balance the offense and keep the defenses honest. A play can be defensed, but when the defense you use to stop play A opens up play B, that more of what I'm talking about. An example is the HB blocking over the middle, then running short outlets over the middle and carrying the ball over the middle. If they are called at the right time and one of the is working well it opens up the other two.

If the read option is used to open up swing passes, or reverses, or counters that's more of what I am speaking of. It seems that the 9ers do not stick with any set of plays to really set up the D. Perhaps I am being too critical but it just seems to me that they are throwing spaghetti at the wall and hoping some of it sticks. Of course, they have been able to win with this MO so I guess all it good. Will be really excited this weekend to watch SF in NE. A great test for both the O and D.

Oh. I thought you were talking about "bread and butter" plays, which i took as one play.

Def will be a test this weekend. I think our D hold them to about 17-20. Can't really predict the offense because, well, our O is sporadic
Originally posted by Loco49er:
Originally posted by Furlow:
Originally posted by InconvenienTTruth21:
Originally posted by Furlow:
The Pistol offense is a disgrace to football. That's why.

The redskins run it very well


we dont

It makes me sick to my stomach watching the Redskins on offense. RGIII has all the talent and potential in the world, and Shanahan is wasting it away by having him run around like it's flag football. He should be shot.

It's a gimmick offense, and again, it's a disgrace. We are getting away from our roots, from what Harbaugh said he would return us to. Are we really falling for this nonsense?

It may not be a disgrace but the Pistol will not win the Super Bowl. I believe Luck will win a ring before RGIII, Newton and Kaep (if we continue with the Pistol). I will always have more faith in a pocket passer than a running passer.

Well said. I agree 100%.
Originally posted by pdizo916:
i wish david shaw would've came out instead of gay ass roman.

He's gonna coach the Chargers
VD needs to be involve...give him the d$&)( ball
Why is everyone avoiding the obvious. When you bench your best QB then your offense will suffer. Kap's passing yards continue to deteriorate. I'm definitely concerned.

Kap's the reason why.
Originally posted by truekingcarlos:
Why is everyone avoiding the obvious. When you bench your best QB then your offense will suffer. Kap's passing yards continue to deteriorate. I'm definitely concerned.

Kap's the reason why.

Can you elaborate on why you think he's the reason?

BTW I agree with you.