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Why do you guys think our offense looked lame?

it's weird. In some games, they try to implement an entirely new offensive scheme.
  • TX9R
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People keep talking about "this new read option" revelutionizing football. The Falcons ran it with Vick like 6-7 years ago. It was pretty unstoppable...for abour 4-5 games. I'm all for running it occassionally, as I am for the Pistol or any other formation as a wrinkle. But it can't be your primary offense. I don't think it is for us or that it will be. People just overreacting. I'm still seeing tons of formations and subsitutions, which is great. What isn't great is having Kaep trying to be Manning at the line of scrimmage like Alex was doing. Kaep just doesn't have the experience to be changing every play at the LOS. They need to get the play in and snap the ball in a reasonable amount of time, get some rythym. Also Kape is over-reliant on throw outside the numbers, which the Rams took away. He needs to go down the middle, esp in this next game.
Originally posted by Kronos2560:
Personally. I think it's a matter of two things. Mainly regarding our Pistol formation, which we used a lot against the Dolphins.

1. Our pistol offense is a new-ish package that we ran a lot in the game against the Fins for some reason. I dont know why we used to so much, but I think we would have looked sharper with offensive packages that this team has mastered.

2. Why were we throwing so much out of this pistol package? It's weird to try and throw so much out of a 3 RB set.

Tebow 2.0 offense.
Trying to think of running QBs who have lasted...nope. The only running QBs who lasted stopped being running QBs fairly quickly to become pocket passers. Yes, they did run occasionally, which is important to keep the defenses honest, but that became a seldom used option.

RGIII is one of my favorite non-niners and I hope he learns to protect himself...soon! CK is a very good runner but I'd just as soon see him in the pocket more, as he has been. An occasional run is fine and he can do that well, but injury is an issue. He has been hit in awkward positions several times this year and each time I cringe, just as I did when Smith was hit.

My second favorite QB, after Montana, is Tarkenton because he set the record for yards run by a QB...just didn't count as they were all horizontal yards!
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Trying to think of running QBs who have lasted...nope. The only running QBs who lasted stopped being running QBs fairly quickly to become pocket passers. Yes, they did run occasionally, which is important to keep the defenses honest, but that became a seldom used option.

RGIII is one of my favorite non-niners and I hope he learns to protect himself...soon! CK is a very good runner but I'd just as soon see him in the pocket more, as he has been. An occasional run is fine and he can do that well, but injury is an issue. He has been hit in awkward positions several times this year and each time I cringe, just as I did when Smith was hit.

My second favorite QB, after Montana, is Tarkenton because he set the record for yards run by a QB...just didn't count as they were all horizontal yards!

Don't worry about whether or not CK will last. The good thing about him is he is absolutely not a "run first" QB. That's just an extra element.

Only reason why they're using his running skills is to make up for the loss of Hunter's production. Think about it this way, during games half the time Gore has to step out for a breather, what does that give us LMJ and Dixon!? The opposing defense will NOT respect that backfield, therefore it becomes an obvious pass play, so how do you make up for it? Run a pistol formation, and have CK and LMJ both as running threats.

Diversify your options bro!!
[ Edited by verb1der on Dec 14, 2012 at 7:35 AM ]
Originally posted by verb1der:
Don't worry about whether or not CK will last. The good thing about him is he is absolutely not a "run first" QB. That's just an extra element.

Only reason why they're using his running skills is to make up for the loss of Hunter's production. Think about it this way, during games half the time Gore has to step out for a breather, what does that give us LMJ and Dixon!? The opposing defense will NOT respect that backfield, therefore it becomes an obvious pass play, so how do you make up for it? Run a pistol formation, and have CK and LMJ both as running threats.

Diversify your options bro!!

If I see him drop back as he did against the Bears and complete passes...no problem. If, on the other hand, his effectiveness is tied to running I will be unhappy. An occasional run is fine. So far I have your word that he is a pass first QB, not much evidence including college stats that would indicate he was one of the best running QBs in college football history. Quit being so defensive bro!

Work calls!
[ Edited by dtg_9er on Dec 14, 2012 at 7:54 AM ]
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by verb1der:
Don't worry about whether or not CK will last. The good thing about him is he is absolutely not a "run first" QB. That's just an extra element.

Only reason why they're using his running skills is to make up for the loss of Hunter's production. Think about it this way, during games half the time Gore has to step out for a breather, what does that give us LMJ and Dixon!? The opposing defense will NOT respect that backfield, therefore it becomes an obvious pass play, so how do you make up for it? Run a pistol formation, and have CK and LMJ both as running threats.

Diversify your options bro!!

If I see him drop back as he did against the Bears and complete passes...no problem. If, on the other hand, his effectiveness is tied to running I will be unhappy. An occasional run is fine. So far I have your word that he is a pass first QB, not much evidence including college stats that would indicate he was one of the best running QBs in college football history. Quit being so defensive bro!

Work calls!

lol! ttyl
Originally posted by InconvenienTTruth21:
Originally posted by Furlow:
Originally posted by InconvenienTTruth21:
Originally posted by Furlow:
It makes me sick to my stomach watching the Redskins on offense. RGIII has all the talent and potential in the world, and Shanahan is wasting it away by having him run around like it's flag football. He should be shot.

It's a gimmick offense, and again, it's a disgrace. We are getting away from our roots, from what Harbaugh said he would return us to. Are we really falling for this nonsense?


RGIII is flourishing in that offense. That offense fits him perfectly, that's why he's playing at such a high level.
18 passing TDs and just 4 INTs with a 104 passer rating as well as 748 rushing yards and and 6 rushing TDs.

I wouldn't call that a waste of talent at all. Shanahan is doing a great job using RGIII
He's also sustained a major concussion and nearly blew out his knee, in his first year. He has NO CHANCE at Super Bowls and a legacy as a Pistol offense QB. None.

It is a disservice to him, Cam Newton, Colin Kaepernick, etc - to not force them to stay in the pocket and develop their passing skills. That is how Super Bowls are won. That is football, in it's purest form, the way it was meant to be played. Until they put a flag belt on the QB's, that is how it will stay. Hopefully anyway.

lol a very mild ankle sprain = nearly blew out his knee okay.

Shanahan is doing a great job using RGIII in what fits his talents the best.
I know stats don't mean too much, but 18 pass TDs, just 4 Ints and 700+ rushing yards with another 6 rushing TDs is amazing for a rookie.
by the way, that offense is ranked #5 in yards per game and #7 in points scored. As "gimmicky" as you may think it is, it's working great for them.

And RGIII can do it all, he can throw from in or out of the pocket, can throw it deep or short. Why would they force him to stay in the pocket when he can run for another 80 yards per game and score more points that way?

It was his knee.
This is completely 'conspiracy theory' stuff, but I feel like Harbaugh and the team almost doesn't want to show too much to the top teams like the Giants and whoever else in the regular season to prepare for the playoffs. As we all know, we couldn't do ish in the playoffs with our offense against the Giants, and I think you will see a lot of new stuff in the playoffs this year that you haven't seen even in the regular season...that's why you see some basic stuff that makes you wonder. Am I completely crazy and overthinking it???
  • GORO
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Originally posted by NCommand:
Hey Verb...sorry, just saw this.

What do think? I think if Bellicheck is a cheater, he's probably also a liar. LOL. Kidding...

I really like your point about patience here with the evolution of OUR offense and how sometimes the mutant becomes the norm over time. That said, I do share many of the concerns others have noted about our offense:
  • QB - putting your QB at physical risk (CK's already taken some big hits and almost all but one were outside the pocket - like how Alex was originally hurt). It only takes one hit and you think the NFL would learn a bit from Michael Vick. It doesn't work esp. for a sustained amount of time.
  • Progression - Aside from 2 big runs, has it really been that productive? Enough to continue to do it?
  • Penalties - we all saw back in the day when we had a QB-on-the-move in Garcia and the holding penalties that racked up b/c of his "happy feet." Young is a good example early in his career but he became a HOF QB after he learned to stay in the pocket and utilize all his weapons.
  • Ad lib - let's face it. We SUCK at ad libbing. With our one-receiver option passing play designs the OL appears to block for 2 or 3 seconds (tops) and then let's their men go (anyone else notice this). The targeted receiver seems to bust his butt to get open and the other receivers play decoy and/or start blocking for him. But when that college play breaks down, nobody has a clue what to do
  • James/Hunter/Gore - it's pretty well known that Gore does not have lateral speed to make big runs off tackle and this is why Hunter was so special. His presence alone forced the defense to defend between and outside their DE's. When Hunter was out and we didn't use James, Gore was pounded into submission (arm hanging off him). When we brought James in, we ran off tackle and suddenly, Gore was back to himself. So do we REALLY need our QB optioning for runs off tackle if we have a guy like Hunter/James?
  • Gimmicks - defenses, esp. 4-3 active defenses are fully equipped to stuff CK and this offense like we've seen with the Rams x2 and others. Having 4 DL (if good/smart) can contain those edges (like Brooks/Aldon do for us now - essentially 5 DL).
  • Delayed - upon further review, all of these college plays seems to be retarding CK's growth as an in-the-pocket-QB and delaying the chance of a successful play d/t all the delay-of-game penalties; there's no time to get players set, there is confusion, no real time to read the defenses, guys coming unblocked, etc.
  • Overall - it's about production and whether it's CK or AS, the results are the exact same at the end of the day; just minor differences for how those results come to fruition. And let's be honest - we aren't producing much even compared to some somewhat-like offenses like ours in (Washington and Carolina).
  • Innovative - hey, I'm as progressive as the next guy as long as we see an upward trend (not flatline or regression like we're seeing here). I do think Roman is innovative in the run game b/c he truly targets a DL's weaknesses and exploits them (wham blocks, runs off tackle, misdirections, pulling G's, etc.) and this is a true WCO principle. But that's about it. It's an Anti-WCO in every other facet from philosophy to the passing game, to the RZ to utilization of all of our weapons. Your point about a spread offense worked b/c the NFL changed how the defense could defend receivers and hence, the explosion of great pass blocking OL, the shot gun and spreading the defense out. The NFL knew this is more entertaining. Us? Well, b/c of this trend, nobody spends $ on the DL or builds a dominant DL anymore so we run down team's throats. We forced s 3-4 defense to play 4-3 to try and stop us. The ones who can are few but typically are the 4-3's with really good/smart DE's and quick, active DT's with goo depth. If they can stop our run and out-muscle our receivers, we're done...we've seen that with the Rams x2, Seattle, Giants x2, Vikings, etc.
I agree with everything here. Kaepernick looked good running the original offense, Then Roman decided to add the pistol which gets mixed results. They were avg 30 plus points the first two games then the next two games they couldnot score 20 points. How many points do they need to be beat NEW ENGLAND this week?
IMO, What's often way overlooked about Montana's game was his ability to run early in his career. Eventually, his passing and judgement excelled and running was secondary in his performance.

Running is an excellent dimension for Kap - for now. But if you look at running QB's, their production tends to fall off after a while. Vick immediately comes to mind. Steve Young was excellent in the run but he grew into an fantastic passer. The NFL is a passing league and our success will depend on accuracy and getting the ball down filed. RDII is a rookie and is starting to get hit. Getting hit so much has ruined Vick,

Kap has all the tools to do the same as other running QB who successfully made the transition. IMO, we have the coaching staff to develop those talents to their fullest and he'll be a top 5 QB in the NFL for many years.
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Pretty much any "dynasty" or multiple-Superbowl winning team has had an explosive offense to go along with their defense. You have teams like Baltimore and Tampa Bay that win once every blue moon and then disappear for a decade. Meanwhile the Patriots have gone to 5 Superbowl's in a decade. The Steelers and Giants are other examples, good defensive teams, but also teams with explosive offenses to along with that. If the 49ers are looking to sneak in and win a single Superbowl, then the current Harbaugh approach is fine, if they want to seriously contend on an annual basis, this offense is going to have to pick it up by quite a bit.


That's a brilliant observation Phoenix... Let's also not forget that Brother John and the Ravens just fired their OC. Hope Jimmy takes notice.
Gee, it couldn't be because roman, then Harbaw, like to chat about the next play, discuss it at length, finally get the play into Kap or alex, and there is 6 seconds left on then clock. Kap gets under center, gets a quick peek , D set is wrong, Kap kills play and isn't able to get new play called. I believe this is called a fuster cluck. And it is the one reason we will get slaughteded by the PATs, ie, we can't get our plays in on time. If coach H could call 10 T.O.s per qtr, it would work just fine. Unfortunately, the weakest link in our O....no make that the weakest link in our entire team , is the unbelieveably crappy failed way in which our HC is unable to get the play to our QB with virtually no time, or little time left on the clock. THAT is our one glaring failure, and it completely undermines the O, and then the D. Having a HC who can't get it out of his pants in time to take a leak is just amazing. Best coach in football last yr to a guy who is so undecided about what to call and when that he , Personally, is screwing up our team.

Somebody tell me how COY goes to dunce of yr based on one lousy, measly thing: getting the dam plays in with adequate time to read D, change play if indicated, and then run the play. Either roman or Coach have to go...ie , vacate chain of command in getting plays in on time. My choice? Cut roman out of playcalling entirely....and then let Coach H argue with himself as to what play to call. Maybe then he will get the play in on time for either qB. Right now , Coach H has made the 9ers a laughing stock around the league, with his incredible inability to get plays to QB in time. Oh, and the 5.5 pts for the 9ers to win?Better dial that up to 18.5, or maybe even an even 28 if coach and roman fumble finger the play calling chain of command, which reached is nadir this past week.

Hard to believe, a great team like Coach has created, is stymied by his inability to make playcalling decisions the focal point of the game. Incredible. Truly incredible, and it makes watching the game, well, painful. C'mon coach, show us what you can do, because right now you look like, ummm, a cross between jason garrett, and oh, say andy reid.
You know what's very telling about our offense being so "lame"? We have to resort to a flea-flicker to get a deep pass off. Our oline sux at pass blocking and people are finally realizing this but people just couldn't stop blaming Alex. Now our coaches have to run a whole new offensive scheme to try to compensate for our weaknesses. Primarily our QB's inability to get the play called, read the defense to make the correct reads/adjustments, and our bad pass-blocking. Basically if Kap could read a defense better we wouldn't be put in bad plays as much. We would be in better plays that would take advantage of what the defense is showing. I don't claim to know where the disconnect is with the play calling but it was never this bad when Alex was in.
[ Edited by paperplanemedia on Dec 14, 2012 at 11:46 AM ]
Originally posted by Furlow:
Originally posted by InconvenienTTruth21:
Originally posted by Furlow:
The Pistol offense is a disgrace to football. That's why.

The redskins run it very well


we dont

It makes me sick to my stomach watching the Redskins on offense. RGIII has all the talent and potential in the world, and Shanahan is wasting it away by having him run around like it's flag football. He should be shot.

It's a gimmick offense, and again, it's a disgrace. We are getting away from our roots, from what Harbaugh said he would return us to. Are we really falling for this nonsense?

It may not be a disgrace but the Pistol will not win the Super Bowl. I believe Luck will win a ring before RGIII, Newton and Kaep (if we continue with the Pistol). I will always have more faith in a pocket passer than a running passer.