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Why do you guys think our offense looked lame?

Originally posted by pete98146:
Not ok with boring!!!!!!!!!!! I hope Harbaugh learns a lesson or two watching us play the Patriots. Can't rely solely on the defense and your kicker to win ball games.

Pretty much any "dynasty" or multiple-Superbowl winning team has had an explosive offense to go along with their defense. You have teams like Baltimore and Tampa Bay that win once every blue moon and then disappear for a decade. Meanwhile the Patriots have gone to 5 Superbowl's in a decade. The Steelers and Giants are other examples, good defensive teams, but also teams with explosive offenses to along with that. If the 49ers are looking to sneak in and win a single Superbowl, then the current Harbaugh approach is fine, if they want to seriously contend on an annual basis, this offense is going to have to pick it up by quite a bit.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by verb1der:
That's some good points NC! And that's why I wanted to hear your input, you've always been solid with analysis.

However I still think our offense is going to further evolve with Kaep. I find it amazing that he's 3-1 considering he's in the middle of an "installation phase". I'm sure this was a back-up plan by Harbaugh and it's going according to plan. And what Bellicheck said makes sense, that when you face the 49ers offense with Kaep at the helm, you really don't know what it's going to be, a pass? a run? an read option? a play action? a flea flicker for a bomb?...Kaep is like a swiss army knife of a QB and opposing defenses has to really be prepared for anything. We didn't have that versatility with Alex.

Furthermore, I do think this dynamic will give us an advantage in getting over the hump and finally appearing in a Superbowl. You guys all seen what the Redskins and RG3 did to the Giants a couple weeks ago right?!

It's a new age offense and folks need to have a little patience in it like they had with Alex! There's some bumps for sure, but ultimately Kaep is 3-1, so something's gotta be working.

My pleasure! You may be onto something in that we are in the middle of a transition to a new type of offense...a less predictable one as Bellicheck alluded to b/c of his versatility.

I'm not ready to make that claim quite yet. I haven't seen anything to contrary to what we ran before with Alex and the production is about the same, as are the W's. I'm guessing it's more to do with Roman and who he's game planning for week-to-week...and new talent added to that equation (e.g. college kid like James).

As to the versatility piece...my preference, if we are going to a younger, more athletic QB with a cannon arm, I want to see some WCO plays with 3, 5 & 7-step drops and versatility WITHIN the passing game. That added element of pocket presence, escapability and scrambling ability, I only want to see utilized to create a more effective passing game...not running game. We already have that with Gore, James, etc. and clearly it is our strength. It's the passing game that needs to be elevated above the play of Alex's (former offense) to truly strike fear of "balance" and "unpredictability" in a DC's mind.

Otherwise, and we're seeing this already, playoff teams will just gear up to stop the run (which includes CK) and not worry too much about a sub 200-yard passing game and maybe 1 throwing TD. Teams already know we're going ultra conservative in the RZ. Teams are already seeing the pre snap problems, penalties, him being coached "down" with every passing game, etc. Keep everything in front.

One could even make the argument that the element of James was the scariest thing for the Dolphins DC. Why? B/c if James could run off tackle, suddenly, that opens up our #1 weapon in Gore inside and...no irony here...CK on his TD run off tackle (of which the defense pinched inside trying to defend Gore).

I'm not saying we shouldn't use CK and his legs as a weapon once in a while...it's another added weapon. But the focus for him, as a young QB should be on perfecting a passing game and utilizing all of our weapons (e.g. this speaks more to Roman and the 3-headed monster who contribute to the game plan each week).

CK's talents, IMHO, should be used, like Steve Young, to help increase our passing game...to compliment our running game, our defense and our special teams. Nothing is more difficult to defend than a well-oiled and balanced machine (team)!

I get your point regarding conventional passing. But do you think that your opinion is influenced primarily by the last two games? Remember this is chess not checkers, every opponent brings a different challenge, so it becomes hard to sustain offensive production on a weekly basis. But if you want to base it strictly on stats, then yes it's about the same.

Anyways..

You're saying "playoff teams will just gear up to stop the run". Meanwhile, the Bears came into monday night with the mentality to "stop the run and make ck beat you with his arm", they got carved up!

Then come the Rams, Fisher's mentality was "Ok, let's scheme to stop the pass and force CK to be like Alex Smith.". They took away all of CK's deep routes and forced 49ers to beat them by playing the short, game managing type game, yes CK struggled, but he overcame in many ways. Then here comes the Dolphins playing copycat in their approach, but this time Harbaugh and Roman were ready, which brings me to my main point..


Because of key injuries (hunter, kw,) Harbaugh and staff were forced to somewhat "re-evaluate" the strength of this unit. They know they have to make up for the loss of Hunter's production, since Gore cannot carry a full load. And only a fool would use LMJ like Kendall Hunter, I'm sure the coaches know this, therefore the offense must somehow "evolve" by engineering it to maximize CK & LMJ's strengths, and that's where the Pistol formation comes to play.

The combo of CK & LMJ is the perfect ingredient to have when attempting to execute a Pistol scheme. They should interview Chris Ault from Nevada (the inventor of this offense) what's his opinion, and I bet he would agree. If Roman can innovate the run game, it's safe to say he can also innovate our overall offense, it was on full display last Sunday.

Sooner or later continuity will develop, just wait and see, it's going to be explosive come playoff time.
The Pistol offense is a disgrace to football. That's why.
  • IT21
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Originally posted by Furlow:
The Pistol offense is a disgrace to football. That's why.

The redskins run it very well


we dont
It's just not that great of an offense. We aren't that explosive.

~ Can't get to the line on time.
~ Can't snap it in time.
~ Can't read the defense fast enough to make proper audibles.
~ Delay of game and wasted timeouts result.
~ WR's are really slow possession guys who lack explosion for the most part.
~ Teams stack 8 in the box to stop our running.
~ Kaep huge upside but inconsistent and reads the field very slowly and misses some things.
~ Alex more of a manager with some limitations when he is in.

This is just not a high powered explosive offense on many levels.
Originally posted by InconvenienTTruth21:
Originally posted by Furlow:
The Pistol offense is a disgrace to football. That's why.

The redskins run it very well


we dont

It makes me sick to my stomach watching the Redskins on offense. RGIII has all the talent and potential in the world, and Shanahan is wasting it away by having him run around like it's flag football. He should be shot.

It's a gimmick offense, and again, it's a disgrace. We are getting away from our roots, from what Harbaugh said he would return us to. Are we really falling for this nonsense?
  • IT21
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Originally posted by Furlow:
It makes me sick to my stomach watching the Redskins on offense. RGIII has all the talent and potential in the world, and Shanahan is wasting it away by having him run around like it's flag football. He should be shot.

It's a gimmick offense, and again, it's a disgrace. We are getting away from our roots, from what Harbaugh said he would return us to. Are we really falling for this nonsense?


RGIII is flourishing in that offense. That offense fits him perfectly, that's why he's playing at such a high level.
18 passing TDs and just 4 INTs with a 104 passer rating as well as 748 rushing yards and and 6 rushing TDs.

I wouldn't call that a waste of talent at all. Shanahan is doing a great job using RGIII
Originally posted by InconvenienTTruth21:
Originally posted by Furlow:
It makes me sick to my stomach watching the Redskins on offense. RGIII has all the talent and potential in the world, and Shanahan is wasting it away by having him run around like it's flag football. He should be shot.

It's a gimmick offense, and again, it's a disgrace. We are getting away from our roots, from what Harbaugh said he would return us to. Are we really falling for this nonsense?


RGIII is flourishing in that offense. That offense fits him perfectly, that's why he's playing at such a high level.
18 passing TDs and just 4 INTs with a 104 passer rating as well as 748 rushing yards and and 6 rushing TDs.

I wouldn't call that a waste of talent at all. Shanahan is doing a great job using RGIII


18 / 4 as a rookie and 748 rush yards and 6 TD's.....
Originally posted by InconvenienTTruth21:
Originally posted by Furlow:
It makes me sick to my stomach watching the Redskins on offense. RGIII has all the talent and potential in the world, and Shanahan is wasting it away by having him run around like it's flag football. He should be shot.

It's a gimmick offense, and again, it's a disgrace. We are getting away from our roots, from what Harbaugh said he would return us to. Are we really falling for this nonsense?


RGIII is flourishing in that offense. That offense fits him perfectly, that's why he's playing at such a high level.
18 passing TDs and just 4 INTs with a 104 passer rating as well as 748 rushing yards and and 6 rushing TDs.

I wouldn't call that a waste of talent at all. Shanahan is doing a great job using RGIII
He's also sustained a major concussion and nearly blew out his knee, in his first year. He has NO CHANCE at Super Bowls and a legacy as a Pistol offense QB. None.

It is a disservice to him, Cam Newton, Colin Kaepernick, etc - to not force them to stay in the pocket and develop their passing skills. That is how Super Bowls are won. That is football, in it's purest form, the way it was meant to be played. Until they put a flag belt on the QB's, that is how it will stay. Hopefully anyway.
Here's a testimony from Vince Wilfork regarding the 49ers offense. These guys are watching the film and are echoing my sentiments.

Quote: "This week is going to be very, very crucial for us getting back to the sidelines every series to go over things they're doing differently," Wilfork said. "It's impossible to try to cover everything they do because they do a bunch of things -- two-back [formations], three-back, sometimes four guys. Four tight ends. It's a lot of work. We have to prepare well and make a sideline adjustment. It's going to be crucial for us this week."

Aside from the number of formations the Niners use, they change personnel and make frequent substitutions, which adds another layer for which New England must prepare.

"When you turn on the film, you see a bunch of formations, different numbers come in and out," Wilfork said. "They change by the play, every other play, people coming in, running in and off the field. (this explains the issue of getting lined up on time) It's going to be some work. This week's going to be very, very crucial for us on sideline adjustments. Probably biggest one of the year so we'll have to do a good job on sideline adjustments and in practice also."

Then there's new Niners quarterback, Colin Kaepernick, who's also a threat to run out of the backfield. Wilfork lumped Kaepernick with the new era of NFL quarterbacks -- like Weashington's Robert Griffin III -- who can run and throw with accuracy. Though a headache for a defensive tackle, Wilfork admitted that they're likely "the future" of the position.

"I get tired of chasing quarterbacks around," Wilfork said. "Chase running backs and then you have to worry about the quarterback's rush lanes and things like that. You can't set a front to a certain way. There are certain ways you have to play those guys and you have to be very cautious of how you play them. We're gonna have a test this week, I'll tell you that."


http://www.csnne.com/football-new-england-patriots/patriots-talk/Wilfork-Sideline-adjustments-will-be-key?blockID=813551&feedID=3352
[ Edited by verb1der on Dec 13, 2012 at 11:16 PM ]
  • IT21
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Originally posted by Furlow:
Originally posted by InconvenienTTruth21:
Originally posted by Furlow:
It makes me sick to my stomach watching the Redskins on offense. RGIII has all the talent and potential in the world, and Shanahan is wasting it away by having him run around like it's flag football. He should be shot.

It's a gimmick offense, and again, it's a disgrace. We are getting away from our roots, from what Harbaugh said he would return us to. Are we really falling for this nonsense?


RGIII is flourishing in that offense. That offense fits him perfectly, that's why he's playing at such a high level.
18 passing TDs and just 4 INTs with a 104 passer rating as well as 748 rushing yards and and 6 rushing TDs.

I wouldn't call that a waste of talent at all. Shanahan is doing a great job using RGIII
He's also sustained a major concussion and nearly blew out his knee, in his first year. He has NO CHANCE at Super Bowls and a legacy as a Pistol offense QB. None.

It is a disservice to him, Cam Newton, Colin Kaepernick, etc - to not force them to stay in the pocket and develop their passing skills. That is how Super Bowls are won. That is football, in it's purest form, the way it was meant to be played. Until they put a flag belt on the QB's, that is how it will stay. Hopefully anyway.

lol a very mild ankle sprain = nearly blew out his knee okay.

Shanahan is doing a great job using RGIII in what fits his talents the best.
I know stats don't mean too much, but 18 pass TDs, just 4 Ints and 700+ rushing yards with another 6 rushing TDs is amazing for a rookie.
by the way, that offense is ranked #5 in yards per game and #7 in points scored. As "gimmicky" as you may think it is, it's working great for them.

And RGIII can do it all, he can throw from in or out of the pocket, can throw it deep or short. Why would they force him to stay in the pocket when he can run for another 80 yards per game and score more points that way?
  • vaden
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Belicheck talks up every opponent he faces. Remember his praise for Tebow last season? He trains his players not to give opponents any bulletin board material. Rather than look at NE Patriot quotes, I look at how we're actually performing on offense and not just points scored, because we've been fortunate over the past month to have some defensive TDs and fumble recoveries on kick returns. Through our first 8 games, we were a top 10 offense averaging 369 yards a game. We haven't had more than 375 yards since, becoming the first team the Saints held under 400 yards. We gained a paltry 321 yards against the Dolphins. We have to improve significantly and time is running out.
Anybody have a highlight or photos of the flea flicker attempt to Moss?
Why has our O been sucking lately, o, let me count the ways:

Penalties

The jumbo formation

More penalties

Conservative play calling

Even more penalties

Receivers getting zero separation, particularly after Manningham got hurt

Have I mentioned penalties?

...or the jumbo formation?

...or punting from the opposition's 40?

...or even more penalties?
Originally posted by vaden:
Belicheck talks up every opponent he faces. Remember his praise for Tebow last season? He trains his players not to give opponents any bulletin board material. Rather than look at NE Patriot quotes, I look at how we're actually performing on offense and not just points scored, because we've been fortunate over the past month to have some defensive TDs and fumble recoveries on kick returns. Through our first 8 games, we were a top 10 offense averaging 369 yards a game. We haven't had more than 375 yards since, becoming the first team the Saints held under 400 yards. We gained a paltry 321 yards against the Dolphins. We have to improve significantly and time is running out.

Every coach does this. Why people don't understand this is beyond me. Also how can people see us as evolving with a college style offense, aren't we simply tailoring the offense to our QBs strengths? Along with with this tailoring comes a bunch of mistakes, it's not that hard to see what's happening, once you stop drooling over the QB.
[ Edited by paperplanemedia on Dec 14, 2012 at 5:30 AM ]
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