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Growing Pessimism

  • cciowa
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 24,860
Originally posted by ninertico:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Naturally, this is speculation but I'm getting a sense of frustration from players in their faith in the coaches and their game plans.



Really? You really believe that, N?

I saw some real stupid penalties by us nullifying momentum. I saw our team rally behind Kaep. I saw both our lines not play to their level for whatever reason least of which is a lack of faith in the coaches, IMO.

I really do believe they were looking past the Rams to this MNF game, but that's just me. I want to see how they play against a playoff team. Then, I will make judg...well, I will pretend to make judgments.

Have a good one, N. Always love to read your comments.
i think the coaches know there are issues and they have no clue how to fix them. i also think a theory floated by Idaho I think that our crappy draft this year is taking its toll bears some truth to. when we lose its the same things that factor into the losses. they keep happening and that is not a good sign moving forward in my opinion
Originally posted by ninertico:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Naturally, this is speculation but I'm getting a sense of frustration from players in their faith in the coaches and their game plans.



Really? You really believe that, N?

I saw some real stupid penalties by us nullifying momentum. I saw our team rally behind Kaep. I saw both our lines not play to their level for whatever reason least of which is a lack of faith in the coaches, IMO.

I really do believe they were looking past the Rams to this MNF game, but that's just me. I want to see how they play against a playoff team. Then, I will make judg...well, I will pretend to make judgments.

Have a good one, N. Always love to read your comments.

Totally hear you about all the other (execution) reasons for why we've lost/tied. We've come out flat three times now and had our azzes handed to us and truly lost as a team from Jed to the water boy. We got run over, we got beat deep, underneath, in the TO game, offense, defense and ST's. We've shot ourselves in the foot SO many times with rookie-like penalties, etc. I totally agree.

But as to my point, it's the TYPE of offense and defense that we play that has me speculating on this bubbling undertone of dissent. And let's be real here. We've been out-coached in 3 of our 9 games and twice now by the Giants. We beat the Saints, we beat the Packers and we beat Seattle/Detroit. We clearly have talent.

But I'm getting this sense that the players themselves, if you were to have a beer with them, would admit that getting a few passes their way a game isn't cutting it. In fact, it downright sucks! And the defense, remains boring and vanilla and this is AFTER talk of comparing our four LBers to the Saints...a group of LBers that got AFTER the QB non-stop. With less reps (chances), the less likely of heating up and making plays. Don't think so? Ask Akers. Look at Danny Amendola...dude hasn't played in 3 weeks+ and the Rams game planed to get him the ball early and often and throughout and he could have had 180+ yards against us with a shattered collar bone.

Sports is so much about momentum and our vanilla game plans, IMHO, aren't giving all of the playmakers we do have, the best chance to contribute.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Hate to see the 9ers play with no fire--Minn, NYG, and start of the Rams--but it happens and other than those two and a bit their games have been intense and well played. STs bothers me but at least they haven't totally botched it. Just not as excellent as last year.

Thanks Stillpans for furnishing the DVOA stats...I seldom look at those but they are another good way of gaining perspective, and seem to agree with my observations this year.

So we can think that the team is ready to give up, or that they just have had some ups and downs and will elevate their game for the playoffs. I choose to believe that latter. And since I have no control of the team, that's the best I can do. to the 9ers!

So when we started off 2-0 and it wasn't unreal to think this team could go 14+ wins, it actually worried me a bit. I seemed to remember that most teams to hoist the Lumbardi at the end of the year have their fair share of low points throughout the season, and that the team with the best record going into the playoffs often falls flat.

So out of curiosity, I just did a little research to find out how the team with the best record has faired in the playoffs in recent years.

Honestly, I was shocked. Not that I had to go all the way back to the 2003 NFL Season to find the team with the best record actually being the SB champ, but just at the combined playoff record of these teams.

Check it out. Here are the last 8 teams who led the NFL in win wins/losses at seasons end.
Year/Team/Record/Playoff record

2004 Steelers 15-1 1-1
2005 Cults 14-2 0-1
2006 Chargers 14-2 0-1
2007 Patriots 16-0 2-1
2008 Titans 13-3 0-1
2009 Cults 14-2 2-1
2010 Patriots 14-2 0-1
2011 Packers 15-1 0-1

That's a combined record of 5-8!!! remember, you can only loose 1 game in the playoffs, you can win (in the best record case) a total of 3!
That's also 5 of 8 teams, the majority in the last 8 years to loose their opening home game with a bye!

I didn't expect it to be that bad!

There's this great quote by Voltaire, and I often apply it to many things in our society. It goes...

"History is filled with the sound of silken slippers going downstairs and wooden shoes going up."

Seems this could be applied to the course of an NFL season!
  • cciowa
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 24,860
Originally posted by stillpans4gold:
Yes. I've seen those games, and we've lost 2, tied 1 and won 6. That doesn't apply to my definition of horrid.

DVOA Ratings...

OFF: 3rd
DEF: 6th
S.T.: 18th

According to these seemingly unbiased, statistically supported numbers, we're shown a clear drop-off in S.T., while our offense has considerably improved from last year and our defense has more or less plateaued.

Who are the good teams we've played this year? And how do you define a good team? Green Bay has the best record of any team we've played this year. I'd venture to say our defense played a great game in that bout. Yep, for sure, we've struggled in a few games. as have all the teams in the NFL.

Your support for your claim is merely, "those games and those losses" - a cherry picking of selected performances that lead you to the claims: "... Coaches are clueless or have ZERO idea how to fix it.... will win ten at best, 9 is more realistic in my opinion ....we either host a wildcard team or we are the wildcard team, we lose and thats it... horrid and cannot be fixed."

Everything else you claim is just a labeling of an aspect of our game and calling it a generally negative word - a classic fallacious argument, which has no value.

Listen, I'm not claiming this team (or anyteam, ever) has not had their struggles, holes or issues to overcome. I just curious if your claims have any basis in anything other than an eyeball test of a few games we've struggled in, and the various aspects of our team with deficiencies?

Hey maybe your right, and your apocalyptic rant will prove true and this team will tank out. I just don't see any logical reason to subscribe to such absolutism as "horrid and cannot be fixed."
when i see our special teams coverageALL YEAR LONG IN EVERY GAME I see horrid. When I see the games vs the giants, vikings and rams, i see a defense not ready to play and vs the rams i see a defense fold at the end of the game. Hey i was led to believe we have this elite defense which can hold leads in the fourth quarter. when i see stupid sloppy game changing and momentum killing penalities ALL YEAR LONG i see horrid. when i see zero pass rush I see horrid. here we are more than halfway through the season and none of those items have been getting better,,, I see not being fixed. and when i see horses**t pass protection ALL YEAR LONG I see horrid. we have one win over a good team in green bay,, ok maybe two with seattle, we get crushed by the giants, abused and out played and outhustled by the rams and vikings and then we beat some s**tty teams. you and i must be watching a different game. and when i see our entire f**king worthless draft, i see dead people
Originally posted by cciowa:
when i see our special teams coverageALL YEAR LONG IN EVERY GAME I see horrid. When I see the games vs the giants, vikings and rams, i see a defense not ready to play and vs the rams i see a defense fold at the end of the game. Hey i was led to believe we have this elite defense which can hold leads in the fourth quarter. when i see stupid sloppy game changing and momentum killing penalities ALL YEAR LONG i see horrid. when i see zero pass rush I see horrid. here we are more than halfway through the season and none of those items have been getting better,,, I see not being fixed. and when i see horses**t pass protection ALL YEAR LONG I see horrid. we have one win over a good team in green bay,, ok maybe two with seattle, we get crushed by the giants, abused and out played and outhustled by the rams and vikings and then we beat some s**tty teams. you and i must be watching a different game. and when i see our entire f**king worthless draft, i see dead people

For many people I meet in life, some have an ability/curse of remembering the bad far more so than the good. This is what it seems to me you are doing... and again, I do not fault you for it. Just trying to throw my perspective your way. I am not conveniently overlooking the bad, mind you... but I am also focusing on the good. I only offer the suggestion that you try to do so as well.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by ninertico:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Naturally, this is speculation but I'm getting a sense of frustration from players in their faith in the coaches and their game plans.



Really? You really believe that, N?

I saw some real stupid penalties by us nullifying momentum. I saw our team rally behind Kaep. I saw both our lines not play to their level for whatever reason least of which is a lack of faith in the coaches, IMO.

I really do believe they were looking past the Rams to this MNF game, but that's just me. I want to see how they play against a playoff team. Then, I will make judg...well, I will pretend to make judgments.

Have a good one, N. Always love to read your comments.

Totally hear you about all the other (execution) reasons for why we've lost/tied. We've come out flat three times now and had our azzes handed to us and truly lost as a team from Jed to the water boy. We got run over, we got beat deep, underneath, in the TO game, offense, defense and ST's. We've shot ourselves in the foot SO many times with rookie-like penalties, etc. I totally agree.

But as to my point, it's the TYPE of offense and defense that we play that has me speculating on this bubbling undertone of dissent. And let's be real here. We've been out-coached in 3 of our 9 games and twice now by the Giants. We beat the Saints, we beat the Packers and we beat Seattle/Detroit. We clearly have talent.

But I'm getting this sense that the players themselves, if you were to have a beer with them, would admit that getting a few passes their way a game isn't cutting it. In fact, it downright sucks! And the defense, remains boring and vanilla and this is AFTER talk of comparing our four LBers to the Saints...a group of LBers that got AFTER the QB non-stop. With less reps (chances), the less likely of heating up and making plays. Don't think so? Ask Akers. Look at Danny Amendola...dude hasn't played in 3 weeks+ and the Rams game planed to get him the ball early and often and throughout and he could have had 180+ yards against us with a shattered collar bone.

Sports is so much about momentum and our vanilla game plans, IMHO, aren't giving all of the playmakers we do have, the best chance to contribute.

Great POV and even a better collection of words in the bold. That says it all, IMO, if the speculation is true.

Going to steal for future referencing though. LOL

Here's another POV. So why would the players feel like this after wins against the Jets and Bills completely dismantling them. That's what I don't understand. I don't believe this team is made up of fickle players, just don't.

I hear ya though, as a fan, about the scheming and play calling. I don't understand why they don't scheme more of Randy, AJ, and LMJ seeing as their speed and abilities could be used well.

Forget everyone else, I say put them in!
cciowa, your posts are usually even-keel, everything ok?
Originally posted by ninertico:
Great POV and even a better collection of words in the bold. That says it all, IMO, if the speculation is true.

Going to steal for future referencing though. LOL

Here's another POV. So why would the players feel like this after wins against the Jets and Bills completely dismantling them. That's what I don't understand. I don't believe this team is made up of fickle players, just don't.

I hear ya though, as a fan, about the scheming and play calling. I don't understand why they don't scheme more of Randy, AJ, and LMJ seeing as their speed and abilities could be used well.

Forget everyone else, I say put them in!

Brother, you can steal it and then copyright it! I'm a team-guy!

Good question. I genuinely think we have drafted and brought in good character team players. They know we can win like this and some games Moss will be double covered all game and others it will be VD or a team will stack up to stop Gore. We have a very selfless team and they are tight. Against the Jets, remember, we ran for 23,000 yards. I'm sure Gore/Hunter and the OL had a field day. And against the Bills, we showed some of our true capabilities/explosiveness in the passing game .

I guess my point is, we finally have all the talent to make a serious run (on paper) and be even more balanced and diverse. And these players have worked VERY hard all off season to make a difference and put themselves in the best position to succeed. But I think that bubbling undertone of dissent is brewing more and more the longer proven playmakers don't get the ball (e.g. VD, Moss, Manningham, Hunter, etc.). And player will take one for the team but eventually they want to be used for more...naturally.

We see it with Jacobs already and understandably so, but to keep perspective, we've barely used Hunter the past few games as well. In fact, he only got 3 carries and 1 pass against the Rams and this is while Gore is "injured."

But, at the end of the day, this is just speculation on my part and this is a very selfless team willing to do all the dirty work so others can succeed and that is exactly what you need from a winning team. Moss and VD will continue to take doubles so Crabtree can excel, Alex will adhere to the game plan so Gore/OL can do their thing and J.Smith will keep racking up invisible stats so A.Smith can get his pro bowl votes. Team game!

But to take it to the next level...a championship level; I think this coaching staff is going to have to learn how to use all the weapons we have, use them correctly and certainly use them MORE than they have so far over the past 9 games IMHO.
[ Edited by NCommand on Nov 15, 2012 at 5:10 PM ]
  • cciowa
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 24,860
Originally posted by verb1der:
cciowa, your posts are usually even-keel, everything ok?
no because what i saw sunday pissed me off and it made me wake up and realize, the same things are leading to our losses. we were just able to cover them up against s**thole teams. I thought the vikings loss was "just a bump in the road",, i thought the giants loss was just a "bump in the road". then comes the rams fiasco. come on this is now three games where we look totally lost and not ready to play the game and make stupid sloppy mistakes we did not make last year and are supposedly not the trademark of a JH coached team. if they come back with a great show and a win monday I guess I will just have to resign myself to the fact we have a schizophrenic team. i just do not like this being not ready to play and being outcoached in 3 games jazz. no matter the record of your foe, there is a right way and a wrong way to play the game and more and more it looks to me like this team is headed down the wrong way slope and the coaches do not have a clue what to do to stop it
Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by verb1der:
cciowa, your posts are usually even-keel, everything ok?
no because what i saw sunday pissed me off and it made me wake up and realize, the same things are leading to our losses. we were just able to cover them up against s**thole teams. I thought the vikings loss was "just a bump in the road",, i thought the giants loss was just a "bump in the road". then comes the rams fiasco. come on this is now three games where we look totally lost and not ready to play the game and make stupid sloppy mistakes we did not make last year and are supposedly not the trademark of a JH coached team. if they come back with a great show and a win monday I guess I will just have to resign myself to the fact we have a schizophrenic team. i just do not like this being not ready to play and being outcoached in 3 games jazz. no matter the record of your foe, there is a right way and a wrong way to play the game and more and more it looks to me like this team is headed down the wrong way slope and the coaches do not have a clue what to do to stop it

It happens on a 16 game season, you are not gonna look good some games. Even the great teams of the 80s and 90s looked like crap some weeks.
  • cciowa
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 24,860
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by verb1der:
cciowa, your posts are usually even-keel, everything ok?
no because what i saw sunday pissed me off and it made me wake up and realize, the same things are leading to our losses. we were just able to cover them up against s**thole teams. I thought the vikings loss was "just a bump in the road",, i thought the giants loss was just a "bump in the road". then comes the rams fiasco. come on this is now three games where we look totally lost and not ready to play the game and make stupid sloppy mistakes we did not make last year and are supposedly not the trademark of a JH coached team. if they come back with a great show and a win monday I guess I will just have to resign myself to the fact we have a schizophrenic team. i just do not like this being not ready to play and being outcoached in 3 games jazz. no matter the record of your foe, there is a right way and a wrong way to play the game and more and more it looks to me like this team is headed down the wrong way slope and the coaches do not have a clue what to do to stop it

It happens on a 16 game season, you are not gonna look good some games. Even the great teams of the 80s and 90s looked like crap some weeks.
i try to tell my self that but there is just something off with this team and then i think, well maybe if we had some god damn rookies who could play and give us a spark in the areas we are suffering in,,,, then i look at our draft and my ovaries start to f**king hurt along with my head
Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by verb1der:
cciowa, your posts are usually even-keel, everything ok?
no because what i saw sunday pissed me off and it made me wake up and realize, the same things are leading to our losses. we were just able to cover them up against s**thole teams. I thought the vikings loss was "just a bump in the road",, i thought the giants loss was just a "bump in the road". then comes the rams fiasco. come on this is now three games where we look totally lost and not ready to play the game and make stupid sloppy mistakes we did not make last year and are supposedly not the trademark of a JH coached team. if they come back with a great show and a win monday I guess I will just have to resign myself to the fact we have a schizophrenic team. i just do not like this being not ready to play and being outcoached in 3 games jazz. no matter the record of your foe, there is a right way and a wrong way to play the game and more and more it looks to me like this team is headed down the wrong way slope and the coaches do not have a clue what to do to stop it

It happens on a 16 game season, you are not gonna look good some games. Even the great teams of the 80s and 90s looked like crap some weeks.
i try to tell my self that but there is just something off with this team and then i think, well maybe if we had some god damn rookies who could play and give us a spark in the areas we are suffering in,,,, then i look at our draft and my ovaries start to f**king hurt along with my head
i left the game with 10 mins left not giving a Fk if we won or lost....
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by verb1der:
cciowa, your posts are usually even-keel, everything ok?
no because what i saw sunday pissed me off and it made me wake up and realize, the same things are leading to our losses. we were just able to cover them up against s**thole teams. I thought the vikings loss was "just a bump in the road",, i thought the giants loss was just a "bump in the road". then comes the rams fiasco. come on this is now three games where we look totally lost and not ready to play the game and make stupid sloppy mistakes we did not make last year and are supposedly not the trademark of a JH coached team. if they come back with a great show and a win monday I guess I will just have to resign myself to the fact we have a schizophrenic team. i just do not like this being not ready to play and being outcoached in 3 games jazz. no matter the record of your foe, there is a right way and a wrong way to play the game and more and more it looks to me like this team is headed down the wrong way slope and the coaches do not have a clue what to do to stop it

It happens on a 16 game season, you are not gonna look good some games. Even the great teams of the 80s and 90s looked like crap some weeks.


Different era, different culture. The 80s/90s consisted of 2-3 GREAT teams per conference vs mediocre/wannabe teams just happy to make the playoffs. The 90s 49ers could get away with an occasional loss to the Falcons, Bills, Lions, etc.....because in the grand scheme of things, you knew that they were going to be at the MINIMUM a 2nd / 3rd seed in the playoffs.

This is a different stage in modern times. Every team thinks they can win the big one at any given moment, and that makes it all the more important to win games that we should. I would hate to see us lose a first round bye bc we TIED the Rams at home coming off a bye. In the 80s/90s, no biggie. In 2012, BIGGIE !
Originally posted by Faraz80:
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by verb1der:
cciowa, your posts are usually even-keel, everything ok?
no because what i saw sunday pissed me off and it made me wake up and realize, the same things are leading to our losses. we were just able to cover them up against s**thole teams. I thought the vikings loss was "just a bump in the road",, i thought the giants loss was just a "bump in the road". then comes the rams fiasco. come on this is now three games where we look totally lost and not ready to play the game and make stupid sloppy mistakes we did not make last year and are supposedly not the trademark of a JH coached team. if they come back with a great show and a win monday I guess I will just have to resign myself to the fact we have a schizophrenic team. i just do not like this being not ready to play and being outcoached in 3 games jazz. no matter the record of your foe, there is a right way and a wrong way to play the game and more and more it looks to me like this team is headed down the wrong way slope and the coaches do not have a clue what to do to stop it

It happens on a 16 game season, you are not gonna look good some games. Even the great teams of the 80s and 90s looked like crap some weeks.


Different era, different culture. The 80s/90s consisted of 2-3 GREAT teams per conference vs mediocre/wannabe teams just happy to make the playoffs. The 90s 49ers could get away with an occasional loss to the Falcons, Bills, Lions, etc.....because in the grand scheme of things, you knew that they were going to be at the MINIMUM a 2nd / 3rd seed in the playoffs.

This is a different stage in modern times. Every team thinks they can win the big one at any given moment, and that makes it all the more important to win games that we should. I would hate to see us lose a first round bye bc we TIED the Rams at home coming off a bye. In the 80s/90s, no biggie. In 2012, BIGGIE !

Not so much because in the modern NFL there is more parity in the NFL. Every team is pretty evenly matched and can pretty much beat any other team.
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by Faraz80:
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by verb1der:
cciowa, your posts are usually even-keel, everything ok?
no because what i saw sunday pissed me off and it made me wake up and realize, the same things are leading to our losses. we were just able to cover them up against s**thole teams. I thought the vikings loss was "just a bump in the road",, i thought the giants loss was just a "bump in the road". then comes the rams fiasco. come on this is now three games where we look totally lost and not ready to play the game and make stupid sloppy mistakes we did not make last year and are supposedly not the trademark of a JH coached team. if they come back with a great show and a win monday I guess I will just have to resign myself to the fact we have a schizophrenic team. i just do not like this being not ready to play and being outcoached in 3 games jazz. no matter the record of your foe, there is a right way and a wrong way to play the game and more and more it looks to me like this team is headed down the wrong way slope and the coaches do not have a clue what to do to stop it

It happens on a 16 game season, you are not gonna look good some games. Even the great teams of the 80s and 90s looked like crap some weeks.


Different era, different culture. The 80s/90s consisted of 2-3 GREAT teams per conference vs mediocre/wannabe teams just happy to make the playoffs. The 90s 49ers could get away with an occasional loss to the Falcons, Bills, Lions, etc.....because in the grand scheme of things, you knew that they were going to be at the MINIMUM a 2nd / 3rd seed in the playoffs.

This is a different stage in modern times. Every team thinks they can win the big one at any given moment, and that makes it all the more important to win games that we should. I would hate to see us lose a first round bye bc we TIED the Rams at home coming off a bye. In the 80s/90s, no biggie. In 2012, BIGGIE !

Not so much because in the modern NFL there is more parity in the NFL. Every team is pretty evenly matched and can pretty much beat any other team.


Yep, and thats why every game matters. a 12-4 record, once upon a time, was a guaranteed bye / home field advantage throughout. Its not only parity, but the new divisional format (4 divisions - 4 winners and only 2 WC teams) thats problematic.