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Growing Pessimism

Originally posted by cciowa:
so you have seen
great special teams play
great defense vs good teams
the team always ready to play
no silly stupid drive killing penalites
great pass protection
pro bowl pass coverage
constant pressure on the quarterback
the team not caving in at the end of the game on defense

we must be looking at different games. you are telling me with a straight face the things i have listed are a figment of my imagination? wow. denial. the things i have listed are "unsupported? the words,"have you seen those games and those losses" just want to leap off the keyboard , but i will restrain my self

Some of your concerns are perfectly valid... though you need to recognize that many teams regarded as "top or very good" teams also struggle as we have in some weeks. So really... our team isn't collapsing any more than the others... but no, it's not all sunshine and roses either. Ya know?
Originally posted by LasVegasWally:
The cup will either be half-Full or Half-Empty.

We are a VERY solid team and like every team that has ever played - Mistakes will happen. Get over it!

And save the woulda-coulda-shoulda crap.

We still haven't lost 2 in a row, our D is a top 3 D, we have 2 solid playmakers in VD and Crabs, our runnuning game is top-notch, our OLine is best it's been in 10+years.

Do we need to improve - absolutely!

Is the sky falling? Only in a hater world.


Yes...Half full or half empty. I watch what my mind does after each game. When we lose like Sunday, the mind tends to get a bit of a dark filter of pessimism and focus on all the imperfections and deficiencies...half empty and falling. When we win the opposite happens and the optimism and positive possibilities are what I tend to focus on. Seems like that is what a lot of us do. NFL is tougher and tougher. Parity is a reality. We remember dominant teams of yesteryear and long for them again. The waves of success rise and fall year to year. Last year we were on an emotional high coming of being the dregs for years. This year we can't create the intensity by being underdogs, like the Rams did Sunday. I sense the Niners are facing the ebb of not having that emotional edge like we did last year and that's affecting the level of intensity we are seeing game to game. If we are going to become truly elite we will have to find a way to play smart, consistent each game. Walsh's teams were like that. The Pats are there with Bellicheck. My sense is that Harbaugh is going to have to go through a maturation process in how he motivates. All in all it's going to be an interesting rest of the season. After decades of watching the niners emerge from obscurity to Superbowl favorites back to obscurity and to rise again I'm learning to take the good with the bad. I have come to accept the ride of watching the team go through it's cycles and celebrate what there is to celebrate, look for the positives where they and not ride the emotional roller coaster myself.
  • cciowa
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 27,019
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Originally posted by cciowa:
so you have seen
great special teams play
great defense vs good teams
the team always ready to play
no silly stupid drive killing penalites
great pass protection
pro bowl pass coverage
constant pressure on the quarterback
the team not caving in at the end of the game on defense

we must be looking at different games. you are telling me with a straight face the things i have listed are a figment of my imagination? wow. denial. the things i have listed are "unsupported? the words,"have you seen those games and those losses" just want to leap off the keyboard , but i will restrain my self

Some of your concerns are perfectly valid... though you need to recognize that many teams regarded as "top or very good" teams also struggle as we have in some weeks. So really... our team isn't collapsing any more than the others... but no, it's not all sunshine and roses either. Ya know?
i do not like to see our team not ready to play the game and our coaches getting out coached. that makes me more insane than the loss itself.Thats what bothers me bud.. I see the same exact things that are leading to our losses. its like we are not getting better in the areas that we struggle in and those things show up huge against good teams. you can cover up 9 penalites vs the bills,, you can not do that with the giants. you can cover up mistakes in special teams andPUNT FORMATIONS vs the jets but not vs other teams,, and then to let it happen TWICE. it is those little things and you know this,,, the little things make up the big things,,, that really really are starting to bother me
Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Originally posted by cciowa:
so you have seen
great special teams play
great defense vs good teams
the team always ready to play
no silly stupid drive killing penalites
great pass protection
pro bowl pass coverage
constant pressure on the quarterback
the team not caving in at the end of the game on defense

we must be looking at different games. you are telling me with a straight face the things i have listed are a figment of my imagination? wow. denial. the things i have listed are "unsupported? the words,"have you seen those games and those losses" just want to leap off the keyboard , but i will restrain my self

Some of your concerns are perfectly valid... though you need to recognize that many teams regarded as "top or very good" teams also struggle as we have in some weeks. So really... our team isn't collapsing any more than the others... but no, it's not all sunshine and roses either. Ya know?
i do not like to see our team not ready to play the game and our coaches getting out coached. that makes me more insane than the loss itself.Thats what bothers me bud.. I see the same exact things that are leading to our losses. its like we are not getting better in the areas that we struggle in and those things show up huge against good teams. you can cover up 9 penalites vs the bills,, you can not do that with the giants. you can cover up mistakes in special teams andPUNT FORMATIONS vs the jets but not vs other teams,, and then to let it happen TWICE. it is those little things and you know this,,, the little things make up the big things,,, that really really are starting to bother me

Yeah.. I mean... I get it. I don't have the answers you seek. I have my concerns... but I do look at the 6-2-1 record and say that while we do have issues? All we can do is appreciate the good things we do and hope the other things will get fixed.
Naturally, this is speculation but I'm getting a sense of frustration from players in their faith in the coaches and their game plans. Heck, I "saw" the frustration on Harbaugh's own face several times after some of the critical plays called by Roman against the Rams that truly cost us the game. The players need to have that implicit belief that they are playing for the best coaches in the NFL...that these coaches will continually out coach the opponent and put THEM in the best situations to succeed and be playmakers (e.g contribute consistently ergo help their teams win).

Now, I keep hearing things about how mature Moss is now and how selfless he is but at the same time, we ALL know guys like him, Hunter, VD, Manningham, etc. want the ball. The most any receiver has caught the ball this year is 7 times. Crabtree is averaging less than 5 catches a game and the next two (VD and Manningham) are averaging 3 catches a game. If your name isn't Gore, how can any QB or receiver be happy on a personal-to-team level with this offensive philosophy?

And on defense, like on offense, we're at the tops for rankings in many categories but clearly there is less emphasis on both exotic pass rushing and TO's.

In short, there is a sense that we are underutilizing the true talent we have at the moment on both sides of the ball and that seems to start with the coaching/game plans.
[ Edited by NCommand on Nov 15, 2012 at 11:49 AM ]
The only thing we can hope for is getting hot at the right time
Originally posted by NCommand:
Naturally, this is speculation but I'm getting a sense of frustration from players in their faith in the coaches and their game plans. Heck, I "saw" the frustration on Harbaugh's own face several times after some of the critical plays called by Roman against the Rams that truly cost us the game. The players need to have that implicit belief that they are playing for the best coaches in the NFL...that these coaches will continually out coach the opponent and put THEM in the best situations to succeed and be playmakers (e.g contribute consistently ergo help their teams win).

Now, I keep hearing things about how mature Moss is now and how selfless he is but at the same time, we ALL know guys like him, Hunter, VD, Manningham, etc. want the ball. The most any receiver has caught the ball this year is 7 times. Crabtree is averaging less than 5 catches a game and the next two (VD and Manningham) are averaging 3 catches a game. If your name isn't Gore, how can any QB or receiver be happy on a personal-to-team level with this offensive philosophy?

And on defense, like on offense, we're at the tops for rankings in many categories but clearly there is less emphasis on both exotic pass rushing and TO's.

In short, there is a sense that we are underutilizing the true talent we have at the moment on both sides of the ball and that seems to start with the coaching/game plans.

Wow, NC... I hadn't really thought of all this, but I think you are right. All of it.

Finished the offensive play by plays... u know where to find it, I think. Time for a good nap...
Originally posted by bluecoller49ninerfan:
Originally posted by ninermedic:
49ers never lost a single game under Walsh or Seifert. Simple fact. Not a single loss ever in between 1979 and 1996. That's why everyone is freaking out, how are we supposed to get to the playoffs if we lose any games during the regular season?

Lmao....well said.... god I was getting so sick of the doom and gloom on here..good thread...it always seem to be the same old 5000000 post posters...way to stay pos....................niners to the bowl baby!

Zoners gonna Zone
Originally posted by NCommand:
Naturally, this is speculation but I'm getting a sense of frustration from players in their faith in the coaches and their game plans. Heck, I "saw" the frustration on Harbaugh's own face several times after some of the critical plays called by Roman against the Rams that truly cost us the game. The players need to have that implicit belief that they are playing for the best coaches in the NFL...that these coaches will continually out coach the opponent and put THEM in the best situations to succeed and be playmakers (e.g contribute consistently ergo help their teams win).

Now, I keep hearing things about how mature Moss is now and how selfless he is but at the same time, we ALL know guys like him, Hunter, VD, Manningham, etc. want the ball. The most any receiver has caught the ball this year is 7 times. Crabtree is averaging less than 5 catches a game and the next two (VD and Manningham) are averaging 3 catches a game. If your name isn't Gore, how can any QB or receiver be happy on a personal-to-team level with this offensive philosophy?

And on defense, like on offense, we're at the tops for rankings in many categories but clearly there is less emphasis on both exotic pass rushing and TO's.

In short, there is a sense that we are underutilizing the true talent we have at the moment on both sides of the ball and that seems to start with the coaching/game plans.

Yes, I agree that the consensus of fans is that we aren't fully utilizing our roster.

I mean Vernon Davis the past 3-4 games? Our best weapon on offense and we've just been using him as a blocker and decoy. Crabs has actually looked really really good this year, but like you said, but his targets have decreased from last year?!? (7.6 targets last year, to 6.77 this year). We picked up 2 FA's to improve the passing game and its the same as last year.

On D, we only have 17 sacks (9.5 from Aldon! and 4 from Brooks). Our D has played great, but I think fans are objective enough to know unless we get to the QB more and get more pressure, we are in trouble in playoffs. We need more then 2 guys that can generate sacks and pressure.

And Special teams????? At this rate, we will lose a playoff game unless we clean that up. Its been atrocious. With a defensive team like us, playing well on Speical Teams is so critical. We're not built to win games 42-28, we are built to win 24-17 where one speical teams mistake can cost a game.
IMO most of the pessimism can be directly related to a failed 2012 draft. The worst draft in nearly a decade, maybe longer.

Having 0 players making an impact from the draft is a failure. There is no amount of spin that can change that. 2012 draft gets a big fat F. In todays NFL you do not get to redshirt, or cut your entire draft class. Just doesnt work that way in todays NFL. There is NO team in the NFL that is so deep that they can afford to use their draft in the way that we did. None. And we are not as deep as the spinsters would lead you to beleive. We are a good team yes, but lack depth in quite a few key positions.

If we were going to draft a RB, it should have been Gores replacment(Doug Martin) and not some gimmick package back that will quite possibly never make an impact in the NFL. Could have had Martin in the first, far and away the second best RB in the draft(realisticly he will probally be better than Richards over the long haul) and then drafted WR in the second if that as hat they anted to do with the first and second pick. No way is Jenkins a better value than Martin, especially if the plan as to draft RB in the second. LMJ is huge drop off from Martin. compared to the drop off from Jenkins to say Jeffery/Hill/Randle.

Thats just talking about our 1 and 2's, not even mentioning the rest of the draft which was an overwhelming failure as well.

I like what Balkee has done in previous drafts, but this one gets an F.
Originally posted by SunDevilNiner79:
Yes, I agree that the consensus of fans is that we aren't fully utilizing our roster.

I mean Vernon Davis the past 3-4 games? Our best weapon on offense and we've just been using him as a blocker and decoy. Crabs has actually looked really really good this year, but like you said, but his targets have decreased from last year?!? (7.6 targets last year, to 6.77 this year). We picked up 2 FA's to improve the passing game and its the same as last year.

On D, we only have 17 sacks (9.5 from Aldon! and 4 from Brooks). Our D has played great, but I think fans are objective enough to know unless we get to the QB more and get more pressure, we are in trouble in playoffs. We need more then 2 guys that can generate sacks and pressure.

And Special teams????? At this rate, we will lose a playoff game unless we clean that up. Its been atrocious. With a defensive team like us, playing well on Speical Teams is so critical. We're not built to win games 42-28, we are built to win 24-17 where one speical teams mistake can cost a game.

Totally...and just to stay with the theme, Alex is 31st in passing attempts, 30th in YPG but 3rd in YDS/A. The point? Alex and the offense are very efficient (esp. on 1st downs) and make the absolute most (and then some) of the few opportunities they do get. So...GIVE THEM MORE OPPORTUNITIES!
Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by stillpans4gold:
Originally posted by cciowa:
yes i am negative,. I have been worried all year about our lack of pressure , s**tty special teams, horrid pass protection. I have been assured by many not to worry, the coaches know whats going on, our defense and offensive line is elite..Sundays fiasco just made me realize some things. Are you people aware of the SAME things keep happening when we lose games so this is not just a bump in the road. I think this team has problems and as they keep happening it tells me either the coaches are clueless, which i do not think they are,, or they have ZERO idea how to fix it.the common factors in 3 losses( Yes i know what the score was sunday)
defense not ready to play
defense getting owned at the the end of the game when we are supposed to be unbeatable with a lead late in the game
defense struggling vs the run
defense sloppy with awfull penalties
entire team terrible with drive killing penalities and mistakes
special teams coverage horrid horrid
pass protection horrid
all those things came to a head sunday in that fiasco. our defense is soft vs good teams and is soft to often early in a game and at crunch time sunday they just faded away, willis allowed himself to be owned by jackson, no pressure on the quarterback and as a result the secondary gets burned plus rogers has been a bum .
You think I LIKE to list this stuff? I look at that list, I see those SAME things happening in very loss we have had this year, I SEE no improvement in kickoff and punt return coverage. I see two games in a dome coming up where we are horrid at. I see a team who will win ten at best, 9 is more realistic in my opinion, we either host a wildcard team or we are the wildcard team, we lose and thats it. I do not think our defense is elite, i think our special teams are horrid and can not be fixed. I saw the losses we had last year and saw that different little non tragic things led to a loss in each one of them during the regular season,,,, THIS year i see the SAME things happening over and over and THATS why i no longer think this is an elite team and whats more I worry the coaches know it and have no idea how to fix it
...."You think I like to list this stuff?" What stuff? All i see is barrage of sensationalist unsupported opinion.
so you have seen
great special teams play
great defense vs good teams
the team always ready to play
no silly stupid drive killing penalites
great pass protection
pro bowl pass coverage
constant pressure on the quarterback
the team not caving in at the end of the game on defense

we must be looking at different games. you are telling me with a straight face the things i have listed are a figment of my imagination? wow. denial. the things i have listed are "unsupported? the words,"have you seen those games and those losses" just want to leap off the keyboard , but i will restrain my self

Yes. I've seen those games, and we've lost 2, tied 1 and won 6. That doesn't apply to my definition of horrid.

DVOA Ratings...

OFF: 3rd
DEF: 6th
S.T.: 18th

According to these seemingly unbiased, statistically supported numbers, we're shown a clear drop-off in S.T., while our offense has considerably improved from last year and our defense has more or less plateaued.

Who are the good teams we've played this year? And how do you define a good team? Green Bay has the best record of any team we've played this year. I'd venture to say our defense played a great game in that bout. Yep, for sure, we've struggled in a few games. as have all the teams in the NFL.

Your support for your claim is merely, "those games and those losses" - a cherry picking of selected performances that lead you to the claims: "... Coaches are clueless or have ZERO idea how to fix it.... will win ten at best, 9 is more realistic in my opinion ....we either host a wildcard team or we are the wildcard team, we lose and thats it... horrid and cannot be fixed."

Everything else you claim is just a labeling of an aspect of our game and calling it a generally negative word - a classic fallacious argument, which has no value.

Listen, I'm not claiming this team (or anyteam, ever) has not had their struggles, holes or issues to overcome. I just curious if your claims have any basis in anything other than an eyeball test of a few games we've struggled in, and the various aspects of our team with deficiencies?

Hey maybe your right, and your apocalyptic rant will prove true and this team will tank out. I just don't see any logical reason to subscribe to such absolutism as "horrid and cannot be fixed."
Hate to see the 9ers play with no fire--Minn, NYG, and start of the Rams--but it happens and other than those two and a bit their games have been intense and well played. STs bothers me but at least they haven't totally botched it. Just not as excellent as last year.

Thanks Stillpans for furnishing the DVOA stats...I seldom look at those but they are another good way of gaining perspective, and seem to agree with my observations this year.

So we can think that the team is ready to give up, or that they just have had some ups and downs and will elevate their game for the playoffs. I choose to believe that latter. And since I have no control of the team, that's the best I can do. to the 9ers!
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
The only thing we can hope for is getting hot at the right time

Name of the game.

And of course, have enough success throughout the season to make the playoffs. Just make the playoffs, nothing else matters at that point. Was that Walsh or Eddie D. that always said that?
Originally posted by NCommand:
Naturally, this is speculation but I'm getting a sense of frustration from players in their faith in the coaches and their game plans.



Really? You really believe that, N?

I saw some real stupid penalties by us nullifying momentum. I saw our team rally behind Kaep. I saw both our lines not play to their level for whatever reason least of which is a lack of faith in the coaches, IMO.

I really do believe they were looking past the Rams to this MNF game, but that's just me. I want to see how they play against a playoff team. Then, I will make judg...well, I will pretend to make judgments.

Have a good one, N. Always love to read your comments.