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For WZ members that have been following football 35 + years

  • fly15
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 4,216
Originally posted by Faraz80:
I dont think Ive ever heard Alex Smith's name held in the same breath as Troy Aikman, Bart Starr, Phil Simms except for here in the webzone.

This is grasping at straws fellas. All of the aforementioned led dynasties and/or dynasty type teams. You base your judgment(s) on Alex based on one year's worth of play which led us to the NFCC, and now you think he can be compared to them. Im sorry, but anyone outside of Ninerland would laugh at this.

agree
Alex Smith is extremely far from "Legend/HOF" status......
Originally posted by blizzuntz:
Alex Smith is extremely far from "Legend/HOF" status......

Not what the OP was asking.
  • cciowa
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 23,028
Originally posted by fly15:
Originally posted by Faraz80:
I dont think Ive ever heard Alex Smith's name held in the same breath as Troy Aikman, Bart Starr, Phil Simms except for here in the webzone.

This is grasping at straws fellas. All of the aforementioned led dynasties and/or dynasty type teams. You base your judgment(s) on Alex based on one year's worth of play which led us to the NFCC, and now you think he can be compared to them. Im sorry, but anyone outside of Ninerland would laugh at this.

agree
ck fans would do well to keep this in mind before they breathlessly say ck could be the best quarterback in the nfl. i am sorry but anyone outside of ck land would laugh at that
  • cciowa
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 23,028
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
Jim Plunkett is a name I left off (really before my time). The goal really was to compare skill sets and see how he measured up to other QBs with a similar skill set. It would be like Philly fans having a discussion comparing the skill set of Michael Vick to Steve Young (or even Randall Cunningham for that matter), to determine what is missing from said player for them to take their game to the next level. The misconception is that Alex Smith has to be a top 5 passer in order to lead this team to the promised land, but this thread shows that there are many guys (and now you added Jim Plunkett) that have won championships without being a big numbers guy compared to other QBs in their era.

What I have learned is that certain things, Smith just isn't going to have, like the ability to get the ball out quickly. But there are things that he can do that will allow him to play within himself and get more consistency out of his own game and the passing offense.

Hey! This thread is fun and comparing doesn't have to be insulting unless folks want to be insulted. For instance, Rodgers release is similar to Marino's in that the ball seems to just take off with very little effort, traveling at the speed of light. I think Marino was better on the release but Rodgers obviously has better mobility. Marino had great pocket awareness though and moved very effectively...just couldn't outrun the hot dog vendor.

Plunkett had a really good arm and was a really good QB...so glad he wasn't totally destroyed in NE! Came close, as Smith was almost destroyed in SF.

I think you have identified a trait that doesn't have to be a weakness for Smith...the release. He has to play more like Montana did, knowing where the receivers were going to be so he could establish a rhythm. CK has a bit of a hitch in bringing the ball back but his release is much quicker once the ball is back. Both players have NFL quality motions so that is not the separating factor.

Those who try to compare Young's situation with CK are forgetting Young's time in SoCal and TB. Then he sat behind Montana. He had eight years pro football experience before starting for SF (being kind to the old USFL here!).

The number one trait I want to see in Smith is the one he demonstrated against NO last year--the ability to win the big games. Some really great (?) QBs did not have the clutch gene.

plunket had one below average year in san fran then lit it up with oakland, he basically had the same weapons in oakland as he did with us, was flores a better quarterback coach than monte? i do know that when willie mcgee went down with a busted leg when we were 6-1 that year, teams could double gene washington cuz they did not fear dick witcher so maybe that was a part of it,, like i said, gotta look at the whole body of work . But you are right, every quarterback has certain things they can control you can zero in on. I am just glad there are people like lifelong and dtg who are smarter than me who can do this
Originally posted by cciowa:
plunket had one below average year in san fran then lit it up with oakland, he basically had the same weapons in oakland as he did with us, was flores a better quarterback coach than monte? i do know that when willie mcgee went down with a busted leg when we were 6-1 that year, teams could double gene washington cuz they did not fear dick witcher so maybe that was a part of it,, like i said, gotta look at the whole body of work . But you are right, every quarterback has certain things they can control you can zero in on. I am just glad there are people like lifelong and dtg who are smarter than me who can do this

I blush! But don't have Mac's cute smilie saved!

Yes, Flores was a former QB and understood that JP was damaged and needed some time to let his body heal and learn the system. Plunkett came from NE where he had been pummeled into submission over five years. One of the most hit QBs in the NFL. He was still shell shocked in SF (two subpar years and it took a year in Oakland for his career to be resurrected--1979 0 starts, 1980 Super Bowl but a QBR of 72. Three of his best statistical years were in the last four years of his career.
  • cciowa
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 23,028
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by cciowa:
plunket had one below average year in san fran then lit it up with oakland, he basically had the same weapons in oakland as he did with us, was flores a better quarterback coach than monte? i do know that when willie mcgee went down with a busted leg when we were 6-1 that year, teams could double gene washington cuz they did not fear dick witcher so maybe that was a part of it,, like i said, gotta look at the whole body of work . But you are right, every quarterback has certain things they can control you can zero in on. I am just glad there are people like lifelong and dtg who are smarter than me who can do this

I blush! But don't have Mac's cute smilie saved!

Yes, Flores was a former QB and understood that JP was damaged and needed some time to let his body heal and learn the system. Plunkett came from NE where he had been pummeled into submission over five years. One of the most hit QBs in the NFL. He was still shell shocked in SF (two subpar years and it took a year in Oakland for his career to be resurrected--1979 0 starts, 1980 Super Bowl but a QBR of 72. Three of his best statistical years were in the last four years of his career.
is it a fair statement to say alex has been pummeled into submission over the years before jh came to town? maybe instead of all this comparing alex to aikman stuff maybe the plunkett comparison to alex is more favorable?? or at least his situation?
  • BobS
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 7,348
Just a bad all around comparison. As you know QBs have to be compared to their peers in the same time period. If you compare Starr, Griese, Simms and Aikman they had big numbers if you looked at averages per attempt. When Starr was with Green Bay they led the league in rushing, he didn't have to throw the ball 40 times a game, he averaged almost 8 yards an attempt, that is a huge number for that era. With Griese Miami had two 1,000 rushers in the same year and went undefeated. The Giants had a great run attack and stout defense in the Simms era, and Aikman had a guy named Emmit Smith. All of those QBs were capable of carrying the team if needed, but they didn't have to. The difference, we won't go far if our running game and defense does not play well, Alex Smith can't carry the team even if he had to.
Originally posted by cciowa:
is it a fair statement to say alex has been pummeled into submission over the years before jh came to town? maybe instead of all this comparing alex to aikman stuff maybe the plunkett comparison to alex is more favorable?? or at least his situation?

That is a comparison I really think is apt. I watched Plunkett drop back and before he could reach his set point he was being hit. That really destroys a QB after a while. I give Flores all the credit in the world to realize he needed time to sit and get his bearings again. SF just put him in and hoped he could win. 13 TDs, 16 Ints and 9 TDs, 14 Ints in his two years with the 9ers.

Not sure I've ever seen a QB shake off multple hard hits over numerous games without being affected. Even YA became a bit shell shocked the last year of his career--something my father couldn't believe...10 TDs and 22 Ints...and numerous ducking downs.
Originally posted by BobS:
Just a bad all around comparison. As you know QBs have to be compared to their peers in the same time period. If you compare Starr, Griese, Simms and Aikman they had big numbers if you looked at averages per attempt. When Starr was with Green Bay they led the league in rushing, he didn't have to throw the ball 40 times a game, he averaged almost 8 yards an attempt, that is a huge number for that era. With Griese Miami had two 1,000 rushers in the same year and went undefeated. The Giants had a great run attack and stout defense in the Simms era, and Aikman had a guy named Emmit Smith. All of those QBs were capable of carrying the team if needed, but they didn't have to. The difference, we won't go far if our running game and defense does not play well, Alex Smith can't carry the team even if he had to.

Only if you don't supply, or know, context. If you rely on stats and are not comparing traits and team strength, schemes, etc. then you may be right. You have provided context that helps the comparisons...thanks!
Originally posted by BobS:
Just a bad all around comparison. As you know QBs have to be compared to their peers in the same time period. If you compare Starr, Griese, Simms and Aikman they had big numbers if you looked at averages per attempt. When Starr was with Green Bay they led the league in rushing, he didn't have to throw the ball 40 times a game, he averaged almost 8 yards an attempt, that is a huge number for that era. With Griese Miami had two 1,000 rushers in the same year and went undefeated. The Giants had a great run attack and stout defense in the Simms era, and Aikman had a guy named Emmit Smith. All of those QBs were capable of carrying the team if needed, but they didn't have to. The difference, we won't go far if our running game and defense does not play well, Alex Smith can't carry the team even if he had to.

I seem to remember Emmit holding out a few games over a contract issue....I also seem to remember the cowboys basically completely giving in after those few games... One could argue that without Emmit the cowboys were a mediocre team at best.
  • cciowa
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 23,028
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by cciowa:
is it a fair statement to say alex has been pummeled into submission over the years before jh came to town? maybe instead of all this comparing alex to aikman stuff maybe the plunkett comparison to alex is more favorable?? or at least his situation?

That is a comparison I really think is apt. I watched Plunkett drop back and before he could reach his set point he was being hit. That really destroys a QB after a while. I give Flores all the credit in the world to realize he needed time to sit and get his bearings again. SF just put him in and hoped he could win. 13 TDs, 16 Ints and 9 TDs, 14 Ints in his two years with the 9ers.

Not sure I've ever seen a QB shake off multple hard hits over numerous games without being affected. Even YA became a bit shell shocked the last year of his career--something my father couldn't believe...10 TDs and 22 Ints...and numerous ducking downs.
i think this is a much much more fair comparison. people get upset and i can see it when you compare alex to bart starr or aikman or quarterbacks who are in the hall of fame. i know the people doing the comparison are not saying alex should or will be in the fall of fame but that is usually the direction that the talk turns to and then it goes down hill from there.. I think you have something here with the plunkett comparison. both highly sought rookies, both got hurt and struggled with s**tty teams untill midway through thier career, plunkett started coming around with sf and then lit it up late with oakland .
  • cciowa
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 23,028
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by cciowa:
is it a fair statement to say alex has been pummeled into submission over the years before jh came to town? maybe instead of all this comparing alex to aikman stuff maybe the plunkett comparison to alex is more favorable?? or at least his situation?

That is a comparison I really think is apt. I watched Plunkett drop back and before he could reach his set point he was being hit. That really destroys a QB after a while. I give Flores all the credit in the world to realize he needed time to sit and get his bearings again. SF just put him in and hoped he could win. 13 TDs, 16 Ints and 9 TDs, 14 Ints in his two years with the 9ers.

Not sure I've ever seen a QB shake off multple hard hits over numerous games without being affected. Even YA became a bit shell shocked the last year of his career--something my father couldn't believe...10 TDs and 22 Ints...and numerous ducking downs.
the same can be said for montana and young in thier last years. I know i had a heart attack when i saw young and montana get hit in thier last years,,, i remember never having that feeling when they were younger
  • cciowa
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 23,028
Originally posted by Jakemall:
Originally posted by BobS:
Just a bad all around comparison. As you know QBs have to be compared to their peers in the same time period. If you compare Starr, Griese, Simms and Aikman they had big numbers if you looked at averages per attempt. When Starr was with Green Bay they led the league in rushing, he didn't have to throw the ball 40 times a game, he averaged almost 8 yards an attempt, that is a huge number for that era. With Griese Miami had two 1,000 rushers in the same year and went undefeated. The Giants had a great run attack and stout defense in the Simms era, and Aikman had a guy named Emmit Smith. All of those QBs were capable of carrying the team if needed, but they didn't have to. The difference, we won't go far if our running game and defense does not play well, Alex Smith can't carry the team even if he had to.

I seem to remember Emmit holding out a few games over a contract issue....I also seem to remember the cowboys basically completely giving in after those few games... One could argue that without Emmit the cowboys were a mediocre team at best.
good point,, when rice held out we were still good due to the running game, young at a high level, john taylor etc. rice only hurt himself there. when he came back he got called for being off side three times in his first game back
Originally posted by cciowa:
the same can be said for montana and young in thier last years. I know i had a heart attack when i saw young and montana get hit in thier last years,,, i remember never having that feeling when they were younger

The thing I like least in football is seeing a guy take an unseen hit. Montana took some hits that just made me sick...and now he and the other retired QBs are paying for it. Same with other positions. Hope they can figure out a way to limit concussions...I advocate leather helmets...no more using the helmet and head as a weapon. Rugby is still a rough sport but they don't stick their heads in front of knees to make a tackle!
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