O-line: All 5 starters grade out in top 5 at their position, Boon and davis ranked 2nd

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by jreff22:
Lets transition this to the backups

we got Kilgore and Looney so do we let Goodwin go and have Kilgore step in or try to restructure Goodwin?

If he goes Kilgore walks into the rotation so we ideally need another backup C and OT....looks like we could be drafting another 2 OL again. That makes 6 guys in 3 years....

Interesting. I think this may be Goodwin's last season with us. Aside from him it is a very young line which is only going to get better. I won't begrudge, say, a 2nd and a 3rd round pick spent on the line. Apart from Slowey the recent line picks haven't been wasted.

Mike Person as well

Originally posted by NCommand:
I agree with that assessment...another poster who keeps tabs closely and watches every snap like FO's has that the same.

I can only speculate but Alex has taken a couple sacks rolling out to his right trying to buy time and then gets sacked as nobody gets open. My guess is they don't pin that sack on the OL? That said, they need to do the reverse and pin hits/pressures on the QB on the OL equally even if Alex got out of the sack or averted the pressure from the OL to throw it away or make a play.

They are saying that Alex is the cause of the other sacks, and that the Oline is only responsible for 5 sacks. At least that's my interpretation of their conclusion based on that final number of only 5 sacks attributed to the Oline. I disagree to some extent with that assessment if that's the case, as I feel the line gets pushed down the middle and of course that creates chaos for the qb. Alex is held responsible for that to some degree, but so should the coaches, they actually coach Alex to take the sack rather than force a play and create a turnover. Why do they coach this? Most likely they've done some data mining that tells them that the greater percentage of losses come from teams that give up turnovers than from teams that give up sacks, at least that's my logical conclusion.

Originally posted by jreff22:
Mike Person as well

7th rounder, though.

Originally posted by sspiker:

Originally posted by jreff22:
Mike Person as well

7th rounder, though.

still a draft pick

Leonard Davis I'm sure is responsible for like 3+ sacks I believe
And I'm sure the rest are TE or RB missed blocks

Eventually every thread does...lolol

Originally posted by TinyHandsBigHeart:
Wow, that's impressive, but if this is true then why is our offense so mediocre? We have a great o-line, good receivers, good RBs, a great TE, and great offensive coaches. What's the problem?

We have a good TE, not great. We also have mediocre receivers at best. We have good RB's and a good offensive line.....

Staley's overrated
He gets abused by the elite pass rushers. Clay Matthews and Jared Allen killed him when we played the Packers and Vikings

This team got its first turnaround when baalke pushed for drafting staley. He followed that up with AD and Iupati. Those guys have been stalwarts of the OL and started the 49ers on the road to recovery. Altho 2 of those guys were taken late, all 3 were taken in the first round. The old saw about, "Oh, you can take an OG or OT in the 2nd or 3rd rd, and then coach them up" has proven to be a canard.(a "duck" or something not true). You want an exceptional OL, then you take the best you can find in rd 1. There are a handful of OLs that come out each yr, but get one in the second rd or later, and you are drafting questionable talent. This team's turnaround can be traced to the drafting, first rd, exceptional quality OLs. Yes, goodwin was a huge improvement at C, so that's an improvement. But until you finish off the Ol with 1st rd material, like that huge C Pankey, or something like that, we will get less than perfect OL play from time to time. I bet you do a search of 32 teams and you will find very few with 3 1st rounders on their OLs....and hence, their OLs aren't that good. You want to replace Goodwin? Then it better be a legit 1st rd talent. Personally, I like goodwin, because he is such a huge improvement over last yr...when we still dam near won the SB.

As for staley, I would say his play could be summarized by the game against GB, where he apparently got beaten twice for 2 sacks, but gave up lots of hurries. Sure the guy has given up 5 sacks, but who draws the toughest assignment each and every game? That's right, it our LT. You all saw what Matthews did in his next game. He personally beat the LT on virtually every play, got 4 or 5 sacks, and showed what a fine job Joe really did do against one of the very best defenders on the left outside of the qB. Give someone else joe's position, and they are going to get beat like a drum. Joe is playing the best passrusher every game, and those of you forgetting that, plug your own favorite in and watch him get his azz kicked. Say what you will, for a guy taking on the best DE or OLb every game, he is playing mighty dam good. And it all started with baalke's drafting 3 first rd OL guys. If you want improvement, it is going to have to be in the first rd. Sure there are occasional OLs taken in the second and third that are standouts....but not many.

And why is the OL so important? Well, Coaches Lombardi and Walsh said, "build your lines first, and begin on O". And that was no joke. OL allowed frank to be frank, and now hunter is coming on behind a truly great OL. WRs get more good passes because OL can protect alex for up to 2.5 seconds. Yrs ago, when first drafted, I said we better either throw 1 or 2 second passes, maybe a rare 3...because the oL stunk. Really stunk. Then once the OL is cooking, the QB has time, the RBs are clicking, the WRs have a shot at getting open. Our problem has been with 8 guys catching the ball each game, no one guy is getting 8 or 9 balls per game, and hence, with fewer chances, concentration and focus falls off. The # of drops has been dismaying. If all caught, alex would have an incredible rating. Thing is , our gameplan is 5.5 yrds and a cloud of dust, plus passes to 8 guys in every game.

That gameplan is the main reason we are seeing so many incredible drops...guys not getting many balls thrown their way, and hence they get drifty and aren't concentrating. If we had wes welker getting 12-15 passes thrown to him per game, heck yeah there would be a lot fewer drops. By design, our passing is spread around, and it is hard for alex to throw hundreds of balls to 8 guys in practice. That is our weak link and as long as Coach Harbaugh continues with this winning gameplan, expect there to be lots more dropped balls. Also, were alex to throw 1-2 second passes his % completion would go up. But he is waiting 3 seconds almost always(except on quick hitters and those almost always are caught), and with that comes the BIG RUSH, and sad to say, the sacks. I would like to see him throw more away...he throws some away now...but maybe a few more....because on a 3 second pass, our receivers are frequently not open. No question our 2minute offense in the middle oft he quarter throws Ds off balance, and those are almost always quick hitters. Nonetheless, until Harbaugh quits on the running game, alex is going to be throwing most passes at 3 seconds....and you can just bank on sacks coming because of that.

Finally, for as great a WR crbs was in college, he has yet to play half as well as he did there. I'm not picking on him, it is just a fact. When he gets 4 or 5 passes thrown his way, he definitely catches a higher %. Delanie,...who knows what to say about him. More drops than I could count. Vernon's have gone down, but he does drop an occasional TD on 3 -4 second passes. Manningham has been our best guy, and moss has played well...but infrequently. Frank dropped two in one game, Hunter and Kyle have drops, plus second teamers have some drops. If they can't each get 50 passes in practice every day, expect some or all to not focus, not concentrate. If we go to just two passcatchers, then alex could throw 50 balls to each guy every day(after practice). But Coach's gameplan includes anybody who can legally catch a pass, meaning the guy hasn't had a lot of passcatching practice every day.....hence the lack of concentration, hence the drops. Today, expecting an OL to block 5 seconds on a passplay is a pipedream. Keep it at 1-2 seconds, except on rare go for broke plays, and watch alex's % go up and sacks go down.

Pasodoc--I agree that Staley gets the tough assignments and believe that he would be a lot more effective if the center of the pocket could hold up better. It's fun to watch Smith take a five or seven step drop and then try to figure out if he can step forward or just start running after two seconds. This is partly a scheme issue though as most teams don't have to help the center as much. The 9ers will have to continue to find ways to help Goodwin, and thus the OTs without reducing targets too much.

Odd that Smith's QBR is lower when he is in the shotgun...guess it's used in obvious passing down and is tell tale. Maybe they should run more from the gun?

Originally posted by truekingcarlos:

Originally posted by NCommand:
I agree with that assessment...another poster who keeps tabs closely and watches every snap like FO's has that the same.

I can only speculate but Alex has taken a couple sacks rolling out to his right trying to buy time and then gets sacked as nobody gets open. My guess is they don't pin that sack on the OL? That said, they need to do the reverse and pin hits/pressures on the QB on the OL equally even if Alex got out of the sack or averted the pressure from the OL to throw it away or make a play.

They are saying that Alex is the cause of the other sacks, and that the Oline is only responsible for 5 sacks. At least that's my interpretation of their conclusion based on that final number of only 5 sacks attributed to the Oline. I disagree to some extent with that assessment if that's the case, as I feel the line gets pushed down the middle and of course that creates chaos for the qb. Alex is held responsible for that to some degree, but so should the coaches, they actually coach Alex to take the sack rather than force a play and create a turnover. Why do they coach this? Most likely they've done some data mining that tells them that the greater percentage of losses come from teams that give up turnovers than from teams that give up sacks, at least that's my logical conclusion.

You may be right...but 5 out of 12? I can see a couple like the two where rolled right, waiting for something to be open as long as he can and eventually takes a 2 yard sack...no biggie. But no way would I put 7 on him. I can see a couple coverage sacks. Like for instance, the back-to-back sacks in the last game. Alex drops back to hit Crabtree on the underneath drag route and the LB mauls him (grabs him and almost knocks him down). By the time Alex starts to look up field he has a DE on his back. To me that would be a 1/2 on the OL and half on coverage sack/scheme.

It would be nice if oldman9er or someone would objectively list out the sacks and where he thinks the fault lies knowing that some are combination reasons. And also note all the one Alex avoided, etc.

And to your last point, totally. Roman was just talking about that a couple weeks ago. Alex is coached to scramble but don't be discouraged to take a sack. Just don't fumble or throw a stupid TO. Alex's recent comments also highlighted this coaching on taking the higher % throws only save for VD, someone he can trust fully and who has 4 of the 5 TD's including one in the EZ on triple coverage. Great throw/catch!

Anyone willing to review oldman9ers play-by-play analysis and assign a real OL assessment of pas protection? We have all the film to back it up as well.

Originally posted by NCommand:
You may be right...but 5 out of 12? I can see a couple like the two where rolled right, waiting for something to be open as long as he can and eventually takes a 2 yard sack...no biggie. But no way would I put 7 on him. I can see a couple coverage sacks. Like for instance, the back-to-back sacks in the last game. Alex drops back to hit Crabtree on the underneath drag route and the LB mauls him (grabs him and almost knocks him down). By the time Alex starts to look up field he has a DE on his back. To me that would be a 1/2 on the OL and half on coverage sack/scheme.

It would be nice if oldman9er or someone would objectively list out the sacks and where he thinks the fault lies knowing that some are combination reasons. And also note all the one Alex avoided, etc.

And to your last point, totally. Roman was just talking about that a couple weeks ago. Alex is coached to scramble but don't be discouraged to take a sack. Just don't fumble or throw a stupid TO. Alex's recent comments also highlighted this coaching on taking the higher % throws only save for VD, someone he can trust fully and who has 4 of the 5 TD's including one in the EZ on triple coverage. Great throw/catch!

Anyone willing to review oldman9ers play-by-play analysis and assign a real OL assessment of pas protection? We have all the film to back it up as well.

I agree with that. I wouldn't attribute 7 to him either, not even close to that. That means coverage sack is also something they must take into account in order to give the Oline only 5 sacks, which makes sense, and its something I didn't consider in my original post. Thanks for the reminder.

Originally posted by truekingcarlos:

Originally posted by NCommand:
You may be right...but 5 out of 12? I can see a couple like the two where rolled right, waiting for something to be open as long as he can and eventually takes a 2 yard sack...no biggie. But no way would I put 7 on him. I can see a couple coverage sacks. Like for instance, the back-to-back sacks in the last game. Alex drops back to hit Crabtree on the underneath drag route and the LB mauls him (grabs him and almost knocks him down). By the time Alex starts to look up field he has a DE on his back. To me that would be a 1/2 on the OL and half on coverage sack/scheme.

It would be nice if oldman9er or someone would objectively list out the sacks and where he thinks the fault lies knowing that some are combination reasons. And also note all the one Alex avoided, etc.

And to your last point, totally. Roman was just talking about that a couple weeks ago. Alex is coached to scramble but don't be discouraged to take a sack. Just don't fumble or throw a stupid TO. Alex's recent comments also highlighted this coaching on taking the higher % throws only save for VD, someone he can trust fully and who has 4 of the 5 TD's including one in the EZ on triple coverage. Great throw/catch!

Anyone willing to review oldman9ers play-by-play analysis and assign a real OL assessment of pas protection? We have all the film to back it up as well.

I agree with that. I wouldn't attribute 7 to him either, not even close to that. That means coverage sack is also something they must take into account in order to give the Oline only 5 sacks, which makes sense, and its something I didn't consider in my original post. Thanks for the reminder.

Can we spell subjective? Wow, if they start parsing the type of sack then they need to publish their definitions and give explanations. As faulty as it is I want every sack to be on the line as long as the QB is not outside the hash marks...where there is grounding there are sacks.

Oldman9er is gone and replaced by McGibblets...I'll have to find out where that cartoon comes from...

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by truekingcarlos:

Originally posted by NCommand:
You may be right...but 5 out of 12? I can see a couple like the two where rolled right, waiting for something to be open as long as he can and eventually takes a 2 yard sack...no biggie. But no way would I put 7 on him. I can see a couple coverage sacks. Like for instance, the back-to-back sacks in the last game. Alex drops back to hit Crabtree on the underneath drag route and the LB mauls him (grabs him and almost knocks him down). By the time Alex starts to look up field he has a DE on his back. To me that would be a 1/2 on the OL and half on coverage sack/scheme.

It would be nice if oldman9er or someone would objectively list out the sacks and where he thinks the fault lies knowing that some are combination reasons. And also note all the one Alex avoided, etc.

And to your last point, totally. Roman was just talking about that a couple weeks ago. Alex is coached to scramble but don't be discouraged to take a sack. Just don't fumble or throw a stupid TO. Alex's recent comments also highlighted this coaching on taking the higher % throws only save for VD, someone he can trust fully and who has 4 of the 5 TD's including one in the EZ on triple coverage. Great throw/catch!

Anyone willing to review oldman9ers play-by-play analysis and assign a real OL assessment of pas protection? We have all the film to back it up as well.

I agree with that. I wouldn't attribute 7 to him either, not even close to that. That means coverage sack is also something they must take into account in order to give the Oline only 5 sacks, which makes sense, and its something I didn't consider in my original post. Thanks for the reminder.

Can we spell subjective? Wow, if they start parsing the type of sack then they need to publish their definitions and give explanations. As faulty as it is I want every sack to be on the line as long as the QB is not outside the hash marks...where there is grounding there are sacks.

Oldman9er is gone and replaced by McGibblets...I'll have to find out where that cartoon comes from...

Yeah, it does come off as a bit convoluted.

Dtg, when we first drafted alex, had no OL, no protection, no coach, no nothing, alex was just a punching bag. Had no receivers either. Staley wouldv'e looked really good about then, but, we still would have needed 4 other OL guys. One of the very first things i penned about alex, was as you said, "maybe he would do better in shotgun" . It is still true, but with frank...and hunter...alex has to be under center . On "We're going to pass plays" alex is definitely better in shotgun. If you've ever played the positioin you know you can see the field about 100X better and right away too. But with our extraordinary running game alex is destined to be under center. Right now he rates right up there with 4 other guys as the top 5 QBs, and still , detractors bombard us with "alex did this" or alex didn't do "that". It is shameful, really, in that anyone writing that stuff didn't see alex take 5 yrs of physical and mental abuse, yet hung in there. The deal with noln was inexcusably bad...the guy had no business as a HC , any more than you or I. Alex is one tough and cool customer, yet some fans just pan the hell out of him. I often wonder how those guys would have held up under the same abuse that alex got physically. Not at all would be my guess. Jeez, we are one of the premier teams in the league, and just like lowell cohn and joe montana, he never could be good enough. That's what alex's complainers make me think of...lowell cohn.

As a thot, our OL is doing just fine thank you, because many forget the type of Ds we have been up against(excluding the woeful jets, pride of NY media). Our OL is just as tough as anyone's, but guys like Matthews are gonna hurt not just us, but anybody. Folks tend to forget that kind of stuff. I still think Coach can rejigger our O plan to better suit alex's game, but no question, alex has done everything his coach has asked. If we have a Matthews at OLB, we need to coach around that making allowances for him as requiring two guys each snap. Applies to julius pepper types, et al. Right now I don't think coach is exactly where he wants to be with OL and alex, but he is definitely working to get maximal production out of both. Compared to someone, say the jets, we are world's ahead of them. The bradys, formerly the Brees's, mannings...those are the guys we have to refine our O for. But all fans should not forget one thing...the 49ers are on of the 2 or 3 truly premier teams in the league, and are something like 6:1 to win it all. And I think they are better than that.