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49er/Minn Coaches Film Pass Offense Analysis

OP updated with second half analysis.
Originally posted by mkmasn:
Originally posted by Bootlegger:
Originally posted by mkmasn:
Originally posted by Bootlegger:
Originally posted by mkmasn:
Originally posted by Bootlegger:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by Bootlegger:
I have to say i think your analysis on Moss is completely off for this game. He was wide open all game and only had 1 I would consider a drop. So out of the 7 targets, he only dropped 1, and caught 3, with the rest being poorly thrown balls..

Three throws to him were either overthrown or behind him. Overthrown at 5:31 left to go in the 1st quarter, where Moss is coming across the field right on 2nd and 6. Thrown behind him at 2:21 left in the 1st quarter, where Moss is lined up on the left side and runs a 10 yard slant to the inside. Overthrown at 13:15 left in the 2nd quarter, where Moss is at the goal line. I actually think Moss had a good day, but the balls just weren't thrown well enough to him.

Did you watch the coaches film? I did, and I agree with the op.

I watched the coaches film and the real game film. I really do not think that the coaches film provides enough depth perception or angle of the three plays I am talking about to the point where someone can blame Moss on those passes. The real game film gives better angles of those passes, and I stand by my earlier statement.

I agree with you on the overthrow at the pylon. But if you watch his route on his 10 yard "slant" on 2nd and 6, he's not running a slant. Nor does he look for the ball. And it is not thrown behind him, Moss hits the ball with his outstretched hand. Had the ball been thrown behind him, it would have hit a defender. Had the ball been thrown any further ahead of him, a defender would have picked it. There was a very small window for Alex to throw into. It could have been a little lower, but it definitely doesn't look behind him. I can't find a link to the actual game footage. If you have one, I'll look there also.

It's in the Niner Talk section called "Vikings Game in 720p" or something along those lines.

Ok, watched it on the 720p link. Same thing. Moss puts his left hand out in front of him and hits it. Moss was not ready for the ball. It's at 23:32 in the video. Moss doesn't even has his head turned until the ball is out of Smith's hand. Smith read immediate pressure and got his just after the throw. Sorry, That's on Moss. That was double coverage. One Vike on Moss' back shoulder the whole way because of the inside move, one Vike in the Zone Moss got into when the ball hit him. That was a pretty good throw.

Ok so it's either a poorly placed ball or its bad route running on Moss. Agree to disagree then.

Except for it's not a bad throw if you watch it. It's actually a really good throw. You can disagree however much you want. ALex made a good hot read, put the pall between two defenders and Moss didn't even look for it.

Sorry you can't accept the fact Moss didn't have a good game because Smith missed him on one deep throw.

I don't know what film you are watching, but that's completely wrong. If you are basing this on the coach's film, then you have a terrible angle to judge this by. The game film is much more telling you can see its clearly a bad throw.
Not only that but you cant even see the ball in that coach's film, LOL. It boggles my mind how you can so definitively state it's a great pass after looking at that.
Originally posted by Bootlegger:
Originally posted by mkmasn:
Originally posted by Bootlegger:
Originally posted by mkmasn:
Originally posted by Bootlegger:
Originally posted by mkmasn:
Originally posted by Bootlegger:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by Bootlegger:
I have to say i think your analysis on Moss is completely off for this game. He was wide open all game and only had 1 I would consider a drop. So out of the 7 targets, he only dropped 1, and caught 3, with the rest being poorly thrown balls..

Three throws to him were either overthrown or behind him. Overthrown at 5:31 left to go in the 1st quarter, where Moss is coming across the field right on 2nd and 6. Thrown behind him at 2:21 left in the 1st quarter, where Moss is lined up on the left side and runs a 10 yard slant to the inside. Overthrown at 13:15 left in the 2nd quarter, where Moss is at the goal line. I actually think Moss had a good day, but the balls just weren't thrown well enough to him.

Did you watch the coaches film? I did, and I agree with the op.

I watched the coaches film and the real game film. I really do not think that the coaches film provides enough depth perception or angle of the three plays I am talking about to the point where someone can blame Moss on those passes. The real game film gives better angles of those passes, and I stand by my earlier statement.

I agree with you on the overthrow at the pylon. But if you watch his route on his 10 yard "slant" on 2nd and 6, he's not running a slant. Nor does he look for the ball. And it is not thrown behind him, Moss hits the ball with his outstretched hand. Had the ball been thrown behind him, it would have hit a defender. Had the ball been thrown any further ahead of him, a defender would have picked it. There was a very small window for Alex to throw into. It could have been a little lower, but it definitely doesn't look behind him. I can't find a link to the actual game footage. If you have one, I'll look there also.

It's in the Niner Talk section called "Vikings Game in 720p" or something along those lines.

Ok, watched it on the 720p link. Same thing. Moss puts his left hand out in front of him and hits it. Moss was not ready for the ball. It's at 23:32 in the video. Moss doesn't even has his head turned until the ball is out of Smith's hand. Smith read immediate pressure and got his just after the throw. Sorry, That's on Moss. That was double coverage. One Vike on Moss' back shoulder the whole way because of the inside move, one Vike in the Zone Moss got into when the ball hit him. That was a pretty good throw.

Ok so it's either a poorly placed ball or its bad route running on Moss. Agree to disagree then.

Except for it's not a bad throw if you watch it. It's actually a really good throw. You can disagree however much you want. ALex made a good hot read, put the pall between two defenders and Moss didn't even look for it.

Sorry you can't accept the fact Moss didn't have a good game because Smith missed him on one deep throw.

I don't know what film you are watching, but that's completely wrong. If you are basing this on the coach's film, then you have a terrible angle to judge this by. The game film is much more telling you can see its clearly a bad throw.

As I've already stated, I watched both. And saw the same thing in both. The angles not good on the game film either. You have to slow it down. The ball is clearly not under thrown. Moss hits it with his outstretched left hand. The ball is placed in the only spot Moss had a chance on the ball without a defender being able to make a play, but it doesn't matter, because Moss wasn't looking for the ball. He didn't even turn his head until the ball was there, which is why he threw up only his left hand and knocked it down. If you can't see that, I don't know what to tell you. I can't be anymore objective than I have been. Read my second half analysis. I place the blame on Smith multiple times. This throw is not on Smith. This is a case of Moss not turning his head on a hot read.
Originally posted by mkmasn:
As I've already stated, I watched both. And saw the same thing in both. The angles not good on the game film either. You have to slow it down. The ball is clearly not under thrown. Moss hits it with his outstretched left hand. The ball is placed in the only spot Moss had a chance on the ball without a defender being able to make a play, but it doesn't matter, because Moss wasn't looking for the ball. He didn't even turn his head until the ball was there, which is why he threw up only his left hand and knocked it down. If you can't see that, I don't know what to tell you. I can't be anymore objective than I have been. Read my second half analysis. I place the blame on Smith multiple times. This throw is not on Smith. This is a case of Moss not turning his head on a hot read.

I watched it one more time. I will amend this, it is not double coverage. The DB is on Moss' outside shoulder and the safety is coming up to make a hit and doesn't get there until after the ball hits Moss' hand.
There is definitive proof the ball hits Moss' hand. Watch the ball after moss stops running. It takes a different angle and comes out of the spiral. It starts going end over end.
Originally posted by Gore_21:
Yeah, we don't give the QB a clean pocket and we rarely see those times where the qb can stand there all day and throw. Our guys don't really stick with their blocks. They are great in the run game but somewhat average in the passing game. Plus our play calling doesn't help at times... not enough quick throws. We have given up 10 sacks, 2 on alex (one slip, one didn't cost us, trying to wait for an open receiver)... given up 13 hits and 8 sacks in the 3 games which is kind of understating how much pressure alex gets. He evades a lot of pressure and has helped get us out of a handful of sacks. The throw with Allen on his ankle, the bad snap from goodwin are 2 off the top of my head. It is somewhat playcalling, could be Solari/drevno, could be alex, could be receivers not coming back to the ball... it's gone on for a long time though. We haven't had a good PASS OL in a long long time. We consistently give up 40+ sacks. We struggle with picking up blitzes or disguised rushers and continue to do so (maybe not as bad as last year though).

I think we can help out the OL with more slants, quick throws, less 7 step drops... how often do we do 3 or 5 step drops... rarely. Alex can help.... if he sees something take it, doesn't have to be perfect, throw the guy open, he doesn't have to be completely open. OL can help by keeping on their blocks, need to work on picking up blitzes/disguised rushers.

Awesome post and spot on esp. regarding the OL not sustaining blocks after the initial snub. Again, I think part of that comes from poor coaching and not playing through the whistle but I also think a big part of that is that the plays are designed to be executed under 3 seconds to a primary receiver with the entire offensive unit playing a roll in that...picture that 3rd and 12 pass in the Lions game to Crabtree where Gore was NOT a receiving option but was to block out one defender while Manningham was to block out the other leaving Crabtree room to gain 7 yards of YAC for the first down!

Anyway, back to Staley...you all know how I feel about it. I wanted Boone to compete and eventually start over Staley and wanted Kilgore/Looney/Davis to fight it out for the RG spot not only for present gains but for long-term gains. I believe both Boone and Kilgore/Looney could more than play at the current level of Staley (LT) & Boone (RG) and have much more upside. Boone is a perfect fit at LT (his natural position), esp. with "punching" experience now at RG.

IMHO we COULD have that OL where Smith can stand back there and progression-read in a real WCO but for now, Roman has to rely on a team passing offense; a quick-strike offense that gets the ball out in under 3 seconds every time. If that option isn't open, look for the check down or use your legs/scrambling ability to gain yards. Don't risk a poor throw, protect the ball...even take a sack if needed. It's that simple right now.
Originally posted by DirtyP:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Hater? Nope but I will point out trends after watching tape. So are you an Alex-hater? Then watch the tape and prove us wrong...

Yet you call people who point out trends in Alex Smiths play that they see on "tape" haters.

Just the opposite...I invite it! In fact, BrianGo did his research, watched the tape, pointed out a nice against-the-grain analysis of the pressure Aldon Smith provided and a few other points that stood out to him regarding a few plays we left on the field. I respect that. As to the "haters" it looks like a few of you are doing some tape-watching yourself and that is great. As long as ppl are objective and are not using it to match their pre-determined POV and providing insight, I'm all for it.

For instance, I'm not singling out Staley...but when you watch tape over and over over the years, you start to see trends; things start to stand out to you; jump out. And he was a player who started to jump out to me negatively. From him I started watching the OL (like oldman9er and others) even more closely and started to see how it has not only affected the play of Alex and the receivers, but the RB's and TE's (having to stay in to block), which lead to more jumbo/max-protection calls which apparently, has lead to a single-option receiving offense.

Yet, the "haters" are still blaming Alex for all of this. They see ONE person and focus their POV on him. They aren't seeing the big picture, the ripple effect, etc...in fact, they aren't seeing ANYTHING other than Alex errors and have impossible, Superman Madden/FF-like play expectations. And THAT makes them a "hater" in every sense of the word IMHO.
[ Edited by NCommand on Sep 28, 2012 at 8:03 AM ]
Originally posted by mkmasn:
There is definitive proof the ball hits Moss' hand. Watch the ball after moss stops running. It takes a different angle and comes out of the spiral. It starts going end over end.

The ball hit the cornerback's left hand not Moss' hand.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Gore_21:
Yeah, we don't give the QB a clean pocket and we rarely see those times where the qb can stand there all day and throw. Our guys don't really stick with their blocks. They are great in the run game but somewhat average in the passing game. Plus our play calling doesn't help at times... not enough quick throws. We have given up 10 sacks, 2 on alex (one slip, one didn't cost us, trying to wait for an open receiver)... given up 13 hits and 8 sacks in the 3 games which is kind of understating how much pressure alex gets. He evades a lot of pressure and has helped get us out of a handful of sacks. The throw with Allen on his ankle, the bad snap from goodwin are 2 off the top of my head. It is somewhat playcalling, could be Solari/drevno, could be alex, could be receivers not coming back to the ball... it's gone on for a long time though. We haven't had a good PASS OL in a long long time. We consistently give up 40+ sacks. We struggle with picking up blitzes or disguised rushers and continue to do so (maybe not as bad as last year though).

I think we can help out the OL with more slants, quick throws, less 7 step drops... how often do we do 3 or 5 step drops... rarely. Alex can help.... if he sees something take it, doesn't have to be perfect, throw the guy open, he doesn't have to be completely open. OL can help by keeping on their blocks, need to work on picking up blitzes/disguised rushers.

Awesome post and spot on esp. regarding the OL not sustaining blocks after the initial snub. Again, I think part of that comes from poor coaching and not playing through the whistle but I also think a big part of that is that the plays are designed to be executed under 3 seconds to a primary receiver with the entire offensive unit playing a roll in that...picture that 3rd and 12 pass in the Lions game to Crabtree where Gore was NOT a receiving option but was to block out one defender while Manningham was to block out the other leaving Crabtree room to gain 7 yards of YAC for the first down!

Anyway, back to Staley...you all know how I feel about it. I wanted Boone to compete and eventually start over Staley and wanted Kilgore/Looney/Davis to fight it out for the RG spot not only for present gains but for long-term gains. I believe both Boone and Kilgore/Looney could more than play at the current level of Staley (LT) & Boone (RG) and have much more upside. Boone is a perfect fit at LT (his natural position), esp. with "punching" experience now at RG.

IMHO we COULD have that OL where Smith can stand back there and progression-read in a real WCO but for now, Roman has to rely on a team passing offense; a quick-strike offense that gets the ball out in under 3 seconds every time. If that option isn't open, look for the check down or use your legs/scrambling ability to gain yards. Don't risk a poor throw, protect the ball...even take a sack if needed. It's that simple right now.

Great post. I'm coming around on the Staley bit. The better the opponent, the more of these games we will see. I'm understanding why the WRs don't get that much depth because Smith simply doesn't have that much time to throw and needs options if the opposing defense has decided to take someone away. In essence everyone has to be somewhat of a "hot read". It's kinda sad that the politics involved with a player (moving Staley to RT or even OG) is hindering this offense. I'm all for Boone at LT as an open competition.

You mentioned coaching ... so who's the goat - Solari or Dreyvno(sp)?
[ Edited by NinerGM on Sep 28, 2012 at 10:14 AM ]
Originally posted by NinerGM:

You mentioned coaching ... so who's the goat - Solari or Dreyvno(sp)?

I blame Solari... he's the one that got us into this zone blocking mess that our interior OL truly suck at.
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Regarding Joe's comment. I'm not seeing him use his many options. Not this past Sunday.


but he has the other 2 games

like i said previously one game shouldnt be a deciding factor especially after many consequtive well played games

Not really. The first two games the passes we are seeing the VD and Crabs show. Thats not exactly spreading it out and using your many options. We got new weapons and aren't even using them.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
are you for real? Watch the first offensive play of the game. Play action roll out and smith passes to a covered crabs for minimul gain and misses a wide open moss in tbe middle of the field for 10-15 yards. It got worse from there. He missed a s**t load of mid range plays and went with the short s**t, even when we were down.

There were many time where he was rushed. But when he had shots, he didnt take them.
He threw short.

He did some nice things as well like getting the ball out fast, so even if there was a rush, it didnt matter.

See post #11

I'm referring to the first offensive play. The short pass to Crabs.

Post 11 refers to the next play i believe.
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
are you for real? Watch the first offensive play of the game. Play action roll out and smith passes to a covered crabs for minimul gain and misses a wide open moss in tbe middle of the field for 10-15 yards. It got worse from there. He missed a s**t load of mid range plays and went with the short s**t, even when we were down.

There were many time where he was rushed. But when he had shots, he didnt take them.
He threw short.

He did some nice things as well like getting the ball out fast, so even if there was a rush, it didnt matter.

See post #11

I'm referring to the first offensive play. The short pass to Crabs.

Post 11 refers to the next play i believe.

Oh, thanks! I'll rewatch again but my referral to #11 was in regards to our overall offensive strategy and the bigger picture of our play calling by Roman. The type of offense we run (quick strike, under 3 seconds, one-short-to-intermediate range pass and then check down or scramble - no deep routes called or installed yet) and coaching (conservative approach, non risk, take the sack, no real ad libs built in, etc.). We're an all-or-nothing passing offense right now with this OL.
[ Edited by NCommand on Sep 28, 2012 at 11:12 AM ]
Originally posted by mkmasn:
First Drive
1. Great kick return followed by 2 runs and a roll out. Davis had a designed outlet, but it looks like he let his block go to soon. Alex could have floated it over Gore and a defender to hit Crabtree in the end zone.

Thank you. Finally someone aside from me has posted about this. This is yet another easy TD that Alex missed against Minnesota. Everyone wants to b***h about the two runs after the big kick return, but fail to acknowledge that on third down, Crabtree was wide open in the endzone when Alex was rolling right.

This is a play that needs to be made 10 times out of 10.
[ Edited by 80sbaby24 on Sep 28, 2012 at 11:20 AM ]