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49er/Minn Coaches Film Pass Offense Analysis

Originally posted by Joecool:
There's been difference in the translation of film review.

I will take what Cossell said in the Murph and Mac interview today:

Last year they hid Alex Smith. They haven't done much different this year but in this last game, their "Shot" plays did not work. He also said Moss was so wide open that whoever's fault it is, you still need to hit that.

It is obvious Alex could not lean on great play design and call.

And no, he's not a Niners fan or a Niner hater. You would be surprised what non-bias opinions actually are of Alex Smith. Just ask the teams that wanted him so bad in Free Agency.

Q: On the other side of the ball, do the 49ers lack a downfield presence?

COSELL: That's a very interesting question. I watched the tape and there were not many downfield route combinations called. That really surprised me.
Originally posted by Joecool:
There's been difference in the translation of film review.

I will take what Cossell said in the Murph and Mac interview today:

Last year they hid Alex Smith. They haven't done much different this year but in this last game, their "Shot" plays did not work. He also said Moss was so wide open that whoever's fault it is, you still need to hit that.

It is obvious Alex could not lean on great play design and call.

And no, he's not a Niners fan or a Niner hater. You would be surprised what non-bias opinions actually are of Alex Smith. Just ask the teams that wanted him so bad in Free Agency.

I'm not reviewing this just watching Alex. I'm not doing this trying to prove anyone wrong. I'm doing this to see what's really going on between the receivers and QB, and the OL play. It's all there, you can watch it and see the exact same things. I'm not putting spin or bias on it.

I think Alex is a good QB, but if Kaep gives us the best chance to win, I would rather have Kaep in the game. That simple. I've said multiple times if Smith doesn't get the job done this year, Kaep will start and the entire offense will be composed of JH's draft picks.
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Q: On the other side of the ball, do the 49ers lack a downfield presence?

COSELL: That's a very interesting question. I watched the tape and there were not many downfield route combinations called. That really surprised me.

Looool at people trying to twist this around. The gameplan was garbage. We didn't run ANY deep routes. Our coaching staff nneeds to step it up
Originally posted by NCommand:
Thank you, thank you, thank you!

THIS is what has jumped out to me the most regarding our offense. It appears to me that we run a quick-strike, only-option offense. And what I mean by that is that each play is designed to single out one receiver while the other 10 guys play a significant role in that play. Your very first play highlights this best:

First Offensive Drive
1. Pass to Delanie was a designed screen. Both WRs were blocking before the ball was thrown.

If you watch, you'll see passes to underneath, short-to-intermediate range where the receiver above is ALREADY engaged in blocking while the pass is in the air. This means the deeper receiver was NEVER a receiving option to begin with!

This means there is no progression reads. There are no OTHER receiving options for Alex. That receiver, by design, better be open in under 3 seconds (noticed this as well) or Alex is off and running and typically does NOT have any options after that save for a handful of plays to Miller/Hunter upon scramble even WHEN he is at the sideline and back-peddling to buy time. We are horrible at ad lib plays from a receiving standpoint.

So the only control Alex has is pre-snap reads to kill a play or roll with it. Change from run to pass or from pass to run and when we go jumbo packages, he has NO option to change to pass (and we usually get stuffed esp. on short yardage plays).

This is VERY significant b/c it means we haven't even touched the surface of the WCO. The WCO id predicated upon pre-snap reads and THEN progression reading of receivers during live action. For instance, Alex would go up to the LOS, make a pre-snap read, call the play and look to his first read option and if not open, to his second, then third, then fourth, etc. NOT HERE!

If that quick-strike, only-option receiver isn't open, Alex is "taking a sack," throwing it out of bounds or scrambling for big gains or buying more time with his legs but he is NOT being asked to stand in there and progression-read?

How many people think this is a byproduct of our pass protection issues from last year to this year. It seems that for every sack Alex has taken this year, he's also gotten out of one as well.

Therefore, Roman has designed an under 3-second, quick-strike offense (we heard about this all off season) and Alex is instructed to take the sack if that option is covered (like in the Vikings game), throw it away or scramble but DO NOT put us at risk (see Ponder throws) and risk turning the ball over. In short, we are playing tournament ball. Why else does Alex and this offense look SO different in the two-minute, hurry-up offense and when we go to a spread (desperation). Anyone?

Bill Musgrave is the Vikings OC. Ponder is in his second year. So what are they doing better in their WCO?

If we have only installed one-read passing game on offense because of our lack of pass protection, then our coaches or our QB are VERY, VERY dumb.
One would think they would tell Alex or Alex would know to read and then get out, like what we saw of Ponder.

I find it highly unlikely that our WCO is that basic in its second year or does not have an "escape" option for Alex. This is not believable. That's what a coach does for a rookie QB.

I find it more believable that Alex is not as effective in a multple post-snap read offense.
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Originally posted by Joecool:
There's been difference in the translation of film review.

I will take what Cossell said in the Murph and Mac interview today:

Last year they hid Alex Smith. They haven't done much different this year but in this last game, their "Shot" plays did not work. He also said Moss was so wide open that whoever's fault it is, you still need to hit that.

It is obvious Alex could not lean on great play design and call.

And no, he's not a Niners fan or a Niner hater. You would be surprised what non-bias opinions actually are of Alex Smith. Just ask the teams that wanted him so bad in Free Agency.

Q: On the other side of the ball, do the 49ers lack a downfield presence?

COSELL: That's a very interesting question. I watched the tape and there were not many downfield route combinations called. That really surprised me.

Roman already addressed that. It was primarily because MIN was playing back. That, in no way points to us not having a deep threat.

Our defense also plays back to cover the deep ball. Guess which player still beat us?

COSELL said Ponder's legs were the x factor.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Bill Musgrave is the Vikings OC. Ponder is in his second year. So what are they doing better in their WCO?

If we have only installed one-read passing game on offense because of our lack of pass protection, then our coaches or our QB are VERY, VERY dumb.
One would think they would tell Alex or Alex would know to read and then get out, like what we saw of Ponder.

I find it highly unlikely that our WCO is that basic in its second year or does not have an "escape" option for Alex. This is not believable. That's what a coach does for a rookie QB.

I find it more believable that Alex is not as effective in a multple post-snap read offense.

or maybe Ponder hit his main read because it was open all day
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Originally posted by Joecool:
There's been difference in the translation of film review.

I will take what Cossell said in the Murph and Mac interview today:

Last year they hid Alex Smith. They haven't done much different this year but in this last game, their "Shot" plays did not work. He also said Moss was so wide open that whoever's fault it is, you still need to hit that.

It is obvious Alex could not lean on great play design and call.

And no, he's not a Niners fan or a Niner hater. You would be surprised what non-bias opinions actually are of Alex Smith. Just ask the teams that wanted him so bad in Free Agency.

Q: On the other side of the ball, do the 49ers lack a downfield presence?

COSELL: That's a very interesting question. I watched the tape and there were not many downfield route combinations called. That really surprised me.

Roman already addressed that. It was primarily because MIN was playing back. That, in no way points to us not having a deep threat.

Our defense also plays back to cover the deep ball. Guess which player still beat us?

COSELL said Ponder's legs were the x factor.

So ALex is better than Brees, Eli, Roethlisberger, Stafford, Rodgers because he outplayed them in one game? I don't get what you're saying. And who cares about Ponder? What's he got to do with anything, besides he played probably one of the best games in the league last week? He played great but he has nothing to do with Alex.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Great stuff!!!!!!!

Naturally the Alex-haters would never watch the game again, (if they even watch at all) objectively like this so I really appreciate all the analysis people are doing now! It makes for some great debates and highlights the REAL concerns...like Staley...someone I've been highlighting for quite a while now. Not b/c I have a personal agenda against him...just that in reviewing the "tape" he stands out to me as a big issue. Alex actually saved him from another sack like you pointed out and maybe more. It also highlights how Alex straightened out his mechanics AND is still just a bit off with some of the newer WR additions (which is to be expected). It will get better, no doubt. Eventually, hopefully, like Crabtree so far this year, Moss and Manningham will be on the same page with Alex like VD is w/o question.

Give it a rest bro....Should we start calling you a Staley hater?
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Bill Musgrave is the Vikings OC. Ponder is in his second year. So what are they doing better in their WCO?

If we have only installed one-read passing game on offense because of our lack of pass protection, then our coaches or our QB are VERY, VERY dumb.
One would think they would tell Alex or Alex would know to read and then get out, like what we saw of Ponder.

I find it highly unlikely that our WCO is that basic in its second year or does not have an "escape" option for Alex. This is not believable. That's what a coach does for a rookie QB.

I find it more believable that Alex is not as effective in a multple post-snap read offense.

or maybe Ponder hit his main read because it was open all day

Either way he had a good game.

Let's just hope we set up Alex to succeed this game no matter how great the defensive plan is for the Jets.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Bill Musgrave is the Vikings OC. Ponder is in his second year. So what are they doing better in their WCO?

If we have only installed one-read passing game on offense because of our lack of pass protection, then our coaches or our QB are VERY, VERY dumb.
One would think they would tell Alex or Alex would know to read and then get out, like what we saw of Ponder.

I find it highly unlikely that our WCO is that basic in its second year or does not have an "escape" option for Alex. This is not believable. That's what a coach does for a rookie QB.

I find it more believable that Alex is not as effective in a multple post-snap read offense.

or maybe Ponder hit his main read because it was open all day

Either way he had a good game.

Let's just hope we set up Alex to succeed this game no matter how great the defensive plan is for the Jets.
Nobody said he didn't.

Do you really think Jim would hold his TEAM back because of QB play? The philosophy worked in the first 2 games...this one it didn't. Half time adjustments obviously didn't fix the issue. And please enough with the Ponder X factor super athletic crap. I consider Rodgers pretty mobile but he got abused in the first half against Sea....did he just forget how to evade pressure or was there other factors that compounded? So far this season Brady, Manning, Vick, Rodgers, Stafford, Cam, and Alex have all had an off day.
Originally posted by DirtyP:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Great stuff!!!!!!!

Naturally the Alex-haters would never watch the game again, (if they even watch at all) objectively like this so I really appreciate all the analysis people are doing now! It makes for some great debates and highlights the REAL concerns...like Staley...someone I've been highlighting for quite a while now. Not b/c I have a personal agenda against him...just that in reviewing the "tape" he stands out to me as a big issue. Alex actually saved him from another sack like you pointed out and maybe more. It also highlights how Alex straightened out his mechanics AND is still just a bit off with some of the newer WR additions (which is to be expected). It will get better, no doubt. Eventually, hopefully, like Crabtree so far this year, Moss and Manningham will be on the same page with Alex like VD is w/o question.

Give it a rest bro....Should we start calling you a Staley hater?

Hater? Nope but I will point out trends after watching tape. So are you an Alex-hater? Then watch the tape and prove us wrong...
[ Edited by NCommand on Sep 27, 2012 at 1:27 PM ]
Originally posted by Joecool:
Bill Musgrave is the Vikings OC. Ponder is in his second year. So what are they doing better in their WCO?

If we have only installed one-read passing game on offense because of our lack of pass protection, then our coaches or our QB are VERY, VERY dumb.
One would think they would tell Alex or Alex would know to read and then get out, like what we saw of Ponder.

I find it highly unlikely that our WCO is that basic in its second year or does not have an "escape" option for Alex. This is not believable. That's what a coach does for a rookie QB.

I find it more believable that Alex is not as effective in a multple post-snap read offense.

It depends on the type of WCO we are running (and where we are at with the installation)...there are many variations out there. In the past two games we came out passing to build leads and to set up the run esp. in the 2nd half. Our first, only-option worked and worked well. This time, like in the NFCCG, the secondary played tighter and seemed to lock down that only-option WR and the plays blew up. And I wouldn't call that "basic" as much as the plays were designed to take advantage of the Vikings and they came in with a tighter game plan and ran some really nice coverages if you, cough, cough, watch the tape. Guys you thought were open really weren't and most of the time Alex hit the only man he could (aka Captain check down, right?). How many deep routes did we run where that was the only-option? If you didn't notice, the Vikings looked like a quick-strike, only option too but their game plan worked b/c we were playing a mile off receivers and weren't prepared for the swing passes or Ponders speed/mobility. Even that TD run the play design got Willis out in coverage deep down the sideline and left a gapping hole in the middle of the field.

So it may not be a "basic" WCO as it is their actual game plan from week to week. In Stanford, was this the same type of offense?

And really, what can you do under 3 seconds? You have one primary option and quick check down if best right?
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by mkmasn:
Thanks to Whomeam for posting the video.

This is my first analysis here. I know other guys do it, but I just had to do one since they released the coaches film.

First half. We spread them out. We were actually very effective. Moss had some key mistakes. Our receivers were not open the majority of the time. There were two questionable check downs, but the coverage was there to warrant them.

The over throw to Moss is on Smith.

Just to get it out of the way:
Ponder's TD Run.The best view is at 24:11. Ponder drops back. Sets his feet, pump fakes. It takes a full second for the pocket to start collapsing from the edges. Soap gets pushed out of the middle to his left, leaving a wide open lane up the middle. Great read, but he had enough time to make it. Good play.

First Offensive Drive
1. Pass to Delanie was a designed screen. Both WRs were blocking before the ball was thrown.
2. Real good pass to Davis who had a guy on his outside shoulder. Smith put it right on his inside shoulder where only he could catch it for a first down.
3. The first drop by Moss should have been caught.
4. On Alex's sack when he rolled out and braced himself for the sack, he had immediate pressure, avoided the first sack, no receiver was open. The sack was inconsequential, it was 3rd down and we punted anyway. Had he thrown it away we would have gained 2 yards. As he was rolling, he crept back up to the LOS.

Second Drive

1. Alex makes a good hot route read. Has immediate pressure right up the middle, throws it quick to Moss on an inside seam, Moss doesn't really attempt to catch it. Looks like the ball got there before Moss was ready for it. Alex looked immediately. Looks like a miscue on Moss.
2. Alex's slip. Moss was the read and the only guy open. Problem is, Moss doesn't look back until it's too late. He gets into the zone, and as he's turning around, a LB steps into the bottom of the zone. Pressure comes from the left side, Alex rolls and slips.
3. Boone still makes me laugh, although Gore might have gotten a lot more on the play. On second look, there was a Viking right there with the right angle, but Boone's shove seems to have thrown Gore into a different angle and velocity. He actually helped on the play.
4. at 16:42 in the video on the check down when Davis looks open, Smith is reads left, middle, check down. DB has WR covered, LB has Davis covered. As Smith goes to his check down, the linebacker pulls off, making it look like Davis is open. No other WR is open until Smith reads his check down.
5. Good throw to Moss on an out before he make his cut.
6. 18:00 Overthrow to Moss. I'm on the fence. Moss makes a great double move. Beats his defender flat out. Did he take the wrong angle? Smith has enough time gets hit just after the throw. It looks like it was just over thrown. But Moss has been making mistakes all day up to this point. Final verdict: Overthrown.

Third Drive

1. Smith's next rollout. He has Davis on a drag who is the only man open, but gets pressure when Jared Allen beats Staley. Smith avoids the sack. Davis ends up with two defenders just behind him, Alex tucks it and gains those yards anyway. Manningham is directly behind on of the defenders, and the throw would have been possible, but there's also a DB right behind him. Alex would have had to float it over a defender and risk the DB being able to make a play.
2. Checkdown to Crabs 28:27. It looks like Manningham makes a good move and gets open, but the DB on Walker slides off into the zone in front of Manningham, and the safety is just over the top. Alex could have made a bullet pass, but the DB could have made a lay on it.
3. 29:24 Quasi-Sack/Throwaway. Jared Allen just makes a damn good play after beating Staley again. Allen beats Staley to the outside, leaving a huge hole up the middle. Right side of the line is holding up fine. Alex starts running up the middle just like Ponder did, Allen manages to just barely grab him. Would have been a huge gain had Staley been able to hold half a second longer.
4. 29:50 Allen beats Staley again BAD. Staley gets beat so bad, he falls down. No receivers are open. Quick pass to Davis for a short gain.
5. Field goal blocked. They pushed EVERYONE back 5 yards.

Second half tomorrow.

Great stuff!!!!!!!

Naturally the Alex-haters would never watch the game again, (if they even watch at all) objectively like this so I really appreciate all the analysis people are doing now! It makes for some great debates and highlights the REAL concerns...like Staley...someone I've been highlighting for quite a while now. Not b/c I have a personal agenda against him...just that in reviewing the "tape" he stands out to me as a big issue. Alex actually saved him from another sack like you pointed out and maybe more. It also highlights how Alex straightened out his mechanics AND is still just a bit off with some of the newer WR additions (which is to be expected). It will get better, no doubt. Eventually, hopefully, like Crabtree so far this year, Moss and Manningham will be on the same page with Alex like VD is w/o question.

are you for real? Watch the first offensive play of the game. Play action roll out and smith passes to a covered crabs for minimul gain and misses a wide open moss in tbe middle of the field for 10-15 yards. It got worse from there. He missed a s**t load of mid range plays and went with the short s**t, even when we were down.

There were many time where he was rushed. But when he had shots, he didnt take them.
He threw short.

He did some nice things as well like getting the ball out fast, so even if there was a rush, it didnt matter.
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
are you for real? Watch the first offensive play of the game. Play action roll out and smith passes to a covered crabs for minimul gain and misses a wide open moss in tbe middle of the field for 10-15 yards. It got worse from there. He missed a s**t load of mid range plays and went with the short s**t, even when we were down.

There were many time where he was rushed. But when he had shots, he didnt take them.
He threw short.

He did some nice things as well like getting the ball out fast, so even if there was a rush, it didnt matter.

See post #11
Originally posted by mkmasn:

Ponder's TD Run.The best view is at 24:11. Ponder drops back. Sets his feet, pump fakes. It takes a full second for the pocket to start collapsing from the edges. Soap gets pushed out of the middle to his left, leaving a wide open lane up the middle. Great read, but he had enough time to make it. Good play.

I feel that Sopoaga took himself in that direction VS getting pushed out of the middle... though the result is the same, but just sayin'...

If you feel like comparing notes... -----------> http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=500184&sid=6669972aa290f85844df571b4c50d6d5