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Fleming out for 2012 , Do we look for another OLB for depth?

no we are good with smith, brooks, haralson, johnson. Haralson is good against the run and will be a good fill-in if something happens to smith or brooks. Johnson has a bright future also
Originally posted by JustinNiner:
no we are good with smith, brooks, haralson, johnson. Haralson is good against the run and will be a good fill-in if something happens to smith or brooks. Johnson has a bright future also

Strictly based on potential. We'll see. Let's not crown him early like Pascoe/Sheets/Nate Davis.
Haralson still needs a pay cut, he can't stay at 2.87M, way way too much for a backup OLB, who doesn't play Special Teams.
Originally posted by NinerBuff:
Originally posted by Oldschool9erfan:
Haralson was never going to get cut. People that say he has no value don't know ANYTHING about the 3-4. He's a quality veteran, plays the run great, forces fumbles....the only part of his game is that he's not getting the huge sack numbers but he wasn't in on the passing downs.

We went with 3 OLB backers last year and we are going to cut him for salary? NOT SMART.

These are the same posters that said Ahmad Brooks isn't a good 3-4 backer.

It takes while to learn the 3-4, it's not an easy position to play. You have to set the edge, play upright, play the run and the pass, read the d and drop into coverage.

I love Aldon Smith but he would have got EXPOSED if we didn't have Parys Haralson.

The niners will probably add depth to the team but a major signing probably not.

Hopefully Cam Johnson can step up his game, he has 3-4 experience already and that's a huge plus.

Honestly, he only has value at this point because of the injury to Flemming. Haralson has been a stalwart against the run and 'good' at setting the edge, but he lacks elite sideline to sideline speed to be great at setting the edge (Manny Lawson was much better at this than Haralson). He's a mediocre pass rusher, at best.

At this point, he is a 'high-motor', expensive back-up who is a leader. Most of the time, leaders are indispensable; however, we have plenty of leaders on our defense. And before Flemming's injury, I was all for cutting him to keep our D-line talent. But now we are going to be stretched thin at OLB, requiring us to keep Haralson.

But your point that anyone who thinks he as no value doesn't understand a 3-4 is off, IMO. Our 3-4 OLBs are pass rushers, #1. We happen to have the two best ILB in the game patrolling the running lanes and who can flow sideline to sideline. Our OLBs must get to the QB. Haralson has proven he is under-capable of this, especially with the increased mileage on his body.

You are making my point for me. Yes, 3-4 OLB's are supposed to be pass rushers, but if you can't stop the run then you got problems. Was Manny Lawson better? Yes and no, but we also paid a lot more for Manny. Manny also got blocked one on one by running backs. I know Parys is not the best pass rusher but he's a solid veteran 3-4 backer. And yes, you don't understand the 3-4 if you think the guy has no value.

So are saying that we would have cut Haralson if fleming wasn't hurt? Then we have no veteran back up OLB's and have two Rookies as back ups, that would have been really suspect. Most Rookies can't come in and start at 3-4 OLB backer, and if they do......they are probably going to get "exploited." And I'm not saying Fleming or Johnson would start but guys get hurt all the time.

So we will probably pick up an extra veteran OLB just in case for camp and depth.
[ Edited by Oldschool9erfan on May 16, 2012 at 2:04 PM ]
Originally posted by AB83Rules:
Haralson still needs a pay cut, he can't stay at 2.87M, way way too much for a backup OLB, who doesn't play Special Teams.

Maybe by a mil, but that hardly will cripple us.
Originally posted by NinerBuff:
Honestly, he only has value at this point because of the injury to Flemming. Haralson has been a stalwart against the run and 'good' at setting the edge, but he lacks elite sideline to sideline speed to be great at setting the edge (Manny Lawson was much better at this than Haralson). He's a mediocre pass rusher, at best.

At this point, he is a 'high-motor', expensive back-up who is a leader. Most of the time, leaders are indispensable; however, we have plenty of leaders on our defense. And before Flemming's injury, I was all for cutting him to keep our D-line talent. But now we are going to be stretched thin at OLB, requiring us to keep Haralson.

But your point that anyone who thinks he as no value doesn't understand a 3-4 is off, IMO. Our 3-4 OLBs are pass rushers, #1. We happen to have the two best ILB in the game patrolling the running lanes and who can flow sideline to sideline. Our OLBs must get to the QB. Haralson has proven he is under-capable of this, especially with the increased mileage on his body.

The way our 34 plays, only 4 men are rushing the passer on most downs. In most cases, those 4 men were one of the following combinations

JSmith, Soap, Mac, Brooks

ASmith, JSmith, Mac, Brooks

Haralson's job was to set the edge and he did an excellent job on 1st and 2nd down last year. This requires far more than a high motor to accomplish. Anyone who knows defense knows that in order to have an elite run stopping unit, you need every single player on the field to efficiently do his job to contain the run. Elite sideline to sideline speed was not required to effectively do this (proof being there effectiveness stopping the run, there was no one better) and I would much rather have a well rounded starting 34 outside backer than a speed guy like Manny Lawson who gets blown off the line of scrimmage.
[ Edited by DirtyP on May 16, 2012 at 2:33 PM ]
Right now, we have four OLB's if Johnson can live up to his pre-draft rankings, not his actual draft spot. I agree with AB that Haralson is making a lot of money to be a backup, but I don't see him losing his job now with Fleming on the shelf. If Johnson can't earn a spot on this roster, they will have to get another body to play OLB. There is no way that the Niners should go with only 3 OLB's like they did all last season.
Originally posted by Oldschool9erfan:
Originally posted by NinerBuff:
Originally posted by Oldschool9erfan:
Haralson was never going to get cut. People that say he has no value don't know ANYTHING about the 3-4. He's a quality veteran, plays the run great, forces fumbles....the only part of his game is that he's not getting the huge sack numbers but he wasn't in on the passing downs.

We went with 3 OLB backers last year and we are going to cut him for salary? NOT SMART.

These are the same posters that said Ahmad Brooks isn't a good 3-4 backer.

It takes while to learn the 3-4, it's not an easy position to play. You have to set the edge, play upright, play the run and the pass, read the d and drop into coverage.

I love Aldon Smith but he would have got EXPOSED if we didn't have Parys Haralson.

The niners will probably add depth to the team but a major signing probably not.

Hopefully Cam Johnson can step up his game, he has 3-4 experience already and that's a huge plus.

Honestly, he only has value at this point because of the injury to Flemming. Haralson has been a stalwart against the run and 'good' at setting the edge, but he lacks elite sideline to sideline speed to be great at setting the edge (Manny Lawson was much better at this than Haralson). He's a mediocre pass rusher, at best.

At this point, he is a 'high-motor', expensive back-up who is a leader. Most of the time, leaders are indispensable; however, we have plenty of leaders on our defense. And before Flemming's injury, I was all for cutting him to keep our D-line talent. But now we are going to be stretched thin at OLB, requiring us to keep Haralson.

But your point that anyone who thinks he as no value doesn't understand a 3-4 is off, IMO. Our 3-4 OLBs are pass rushers, #1. We happen to have the two best ILB in the game patrolling the running lanes and who can flow sideline to sideline. Our OLBs must get to the QB. Haralson has proven he is under-capable of this, especially with the increased mileage on his body.

You are making my point for me. Yes, 3-4 OLB's are supposed to be pass rushers, but if you can't stop the run then you got problems. Was Manny Lawson better? Yes and no, but we also paid a lot more for Manny. Manny also got blocked one on one by running backs. I know Parys is not the best pass rusher but he's a solid veteran 3-4 backer. And yes, you don't understand the 3-4 if you think the guy has no value.

So are saying that we would have cut Haralson if fleming wasn't hurt? Then we have no veteran back up OLB's and have two Rookies as back ups, that would have been really suspect. Most Rookies can't come in and start at 3-4 OLB backer, and if they do......they are probably going to get "exploited." And I'm not saying Fleming or Johnson would start but guys get hurt all the time.

So we will probably pick up an extra veteran OLB just in case for camp and depth.

We do not have any problems stopping the run. And I truly believe we won't have any problems with the run next year either (without Haralson in the starting lineup). He does have some value, but his value is diminished due to his lack of pass rushing. He was a solid contributor and leader last year, nothing more. Honestly, we don't require the leadership (as much) and his current price tag is too hefty for a back-up with no ST qualifications.

And now its only speculation whether he would have made the team or not, because with Flemming down, it forced us to retain Haralson.

Is he one of the best 53? Now, I think yes. Before the Flemming injury, it would have been interesting.
Originally posted by NinerBuff:
It means that Haralson will not get cut and Cam Johnson will make the team.

I wouldn't be surprised if a guy like Travis Laboy was signed.
  • cciowa
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Originally posted by Hammerthrow99:
I wouldn't be surprised if a guy like Travis Laboy was signed.
I hate signing ex niners but you may have a point here. i think we can only do a vet minimum?. I also want kyle kosier but that will not happen
Originally posted by NinerBuff:
Is he one of the best 53? Now, I think yes. Before the Flemming injury, it would have been interesting.

Your'e saying both our 5th and our 7th round rookie draft picks are better than a player who was starting on the best defense in football last year?
Does Fleming's injury really hurt the team, or just hurt the depth at that position? To be honest, I had never heard of him until the 49ers drafted him.
Originally posted by SFrush:
Originally posted by AB83Rules:
Haralson still needs a pay cut, he can't stay at 2.87M, way way too much for a backup OLB, who doesn't play Special Teams.

Maybe by a mil, but that hardly will cripple us.

With the way the cap is, and we only have about 4.5M right now, and that only includes top 51 salaries, and when the top 53 plus P-Squad considered, he needs a pay cut, we will only be 1.73M under, which is nowhere near enough to get by during the season. Teams need at least 3-4M to be safe in case of injuries.
Haralson was steady all year, he could be counted on not to make the big mistakes. He may lack flash but he fits the scheme. It all depends on what plays out in training camp.