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Gregg Williams wanted to seriously injure all our players (audio on first post)

Originally posted by HessianDud:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by HessianDud:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
IMO, if you're not cheating you're not trying. Good that these fools got caught, and they got caught because they were so brazen/open about it. But my bottom line is, I want my team(s) to be this aggressive and win at all costs (this is a violent sport where winning trumps all, even sportsmanship and civility), just be discreet about it...and don't get caught.

pushing the limits of the rules is one thing, outright cheating is another--just like the realities of a violent sport is one thing, and intentionally injuring players is another.

True, but it's a cut-throat sport where losing isn't tolerated. I guess I'm old school and know that this kinda stuff used to happen pretty regularly, cuz at the end of the day, these are MEN playing a MAN'S sport, not little girls playing hopscotch.

yeah, i get it. i basically agree, but even in a violent sport of manly men there can be good sportsmanship. you can be both a gentleman and a brute. i don't want to root for a cheater, either.

Off the field, you can be as friendly as you want, but on the field there's a war going on. And again, cheating happens all the time to certain degrees (holding, pushing WRs off-route, exaggerating snap counts, etc.). Yes, this was a few levels above that, but let's be serious here. When Williams was saying "take the head out," he wasn't saying to chop someone's head off. He was looking to concuss someone so they either couldn't play or would play impaired.

IMO, the only difference here is that the coach BRAZENLY AND OPENLY directed this (and added the bounty), whereas most teams try to do this (take out their opponent's best player) as part of their game-plan. I'm not defending the openness or the bounty aspect of it in any way, I think it was stupid. But I will defend their desire to punish and take out certain guys if/where possible, because frankly, that's football.

I'm trying to look at this objectively even though it effected my team. Because if the shoe was on the other foot (say we placed the bounties), I think 49er fans (some, but of course not all) would be looking at it very differently.
[ Edited by GhostofFredDean74 on Apr 5, 2012 at 12:37 PM ]
Originally posted by DRUSTOPO:
Originally posted by FILTHpigskin:
Okay, I'll take your word for it... sorry about the troll comment.

The Saint's had a prior history of this kind of behavior, that's all. They were warned. Williams basically threw it in the NFL's face with those recorded remarks. The Giant's players just said they wanted to lay a good hit on someone (which defenses should always try to do), not get paid extra cash to knock them out or tear their ACL.

I hear ya, just cant stand hearing all these Giants fans...lol Pent up anger since I see NY Giants SB Champs posters every day

Yeah, that's gotta suck.
But we'll get 'em next year... legally!
Originally posted by DRUSTOPO:
Originally posted by jacklegniner:
I just saw this somewhere else.

(Finish this sentence) Greg Williams is most likely to be coaching.......................

Charlestown Chiefs

I was thinking something more like Mighty Mights...
I don't care if this has been going on for a long time. It's one thing when someone gets injured from a hard, physical, legal hit. It's one thing when you know a guy has a weak shoulder so you force him to try tackle you from that side or something. It's one thing when a receiver has a weak knee and you press him to try and get him to push off/plant with that leg. It's a completely different motherf*cking thing to deliberately try to injure someone in order to win. You are basically seperatting someone from their livelihood and their ability to participate in what they are passionate about in life and then you are institutionalizing and funding it. It's bad sportsmanship and is completely devoid of honor. I get that it's a violent physical sport, but there are ways to compete with honor and dignity, and this is not it. You hit a player hard because you are attacking him as a player. By the end of that game you shake hands with him to acknowledge him as a competitor, but more to remind yourself its just a game. When you deliberately try to injure and ruin someone's career, you are stepping that aggression past them as a player, and attacking them as a person. f**k that. There's a reason we don't let people hit people in the groin inin boxing or ufc, and those are both very violent sports. Quite frankly, a shot to the groin is preferrable to a kill shot delivered to my concussionrattled head. One hurts in the short term, the other contributes to me s**tting myself and losing the ability to form complete sentences as a fairly young retiree.
Originally posted by HessianDud:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by HessianDud:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
IMO, if you're not cheating you're not trying. Good that these fools got caught, and they got caught because they were so brazen/open about it. But my bottom line is, I want my team(s) to be this aggressive and win at all costs (this is a violent sport where winning trumps all, even sportsmanship and civility), just be discreet about it...and don't get caught.

pushing the limits of the rules is one thing, outright cheating is another--just like the realities of a violent sport is one thing, and intentionally injuring players is another.

True, but it's a cut-throat sport where losing isn't tolerated. I guess I'm old school and know that this kinda stuff used to happen pretty regularly, cuz at the end of the day, these are MEN playing a MAN'S sport, not little girls playing hopscotch.

yeah, i get it. i basically agree, but even in a violent sport of manly men there can be good sportsmanship. you can be both a gentleman and a brute. i don't want to root for a cheater, either.

There's nothing honorable about cheating. With the nature of the game there is ample opportunity to lay the wood in a clean and legal way. Players who try to hurt other players with cheap shots are not manly. The new rules make it tougher, for sure. What was legal in Ronnie Lott's day might be illegal today. But intential cheap shots with the intent of injuring another player is more exemplary of weakness than manliness. Earl Campbell and Jim Brown did not have to take cheap shots on the opposition to demonstrate their physical dominance. Same for Justin Smith. He is just a powerful beast of a man playing within the rules.
Originally posted by norcal49er864:
I don't care if this has been going on for a long time. It's one thing when someone gets injured from a hard, physical, legal hit. It's one thing when you know a guy has a weak shoulder so you force him to try tackle you from that side or something. It's one thing when a receiver has a weak knee and you press him to try and get him to push off/plant with that leg. It's a completely different motherf*cking thing to deliberately try to injure someone in order to win. You are basically seperatting someone from their livelihood and their ability to participate in what they are passionate about in life and then you are institutionalizing and funding it. It's bad sportsmanship and is completely devoid of honor. I get that it's a violent physical sport, but there are ways to compete with honor and dignity, and this is not it. You hit a player hard because you are attacking him as a player. By the end of that game you shake hands with him to acknowledge him as a competitor, but more to remind yourself its just a game. When you deliberately try to injure and ruin someone's career, you are stepping that aggression past them as a player, and attacking them as a person. f**k that. There's a reason we don't let people hit people in the groin inin boxing or ufc, and those are both very violent sports. Quite frankly, a shot to the groin is preferrable to a kill shot delivered to my concussionrattled head. One hurts in the short term, the other contributes to me s**tting myself and losing the ability to form complete sentences as a fairly young retiree.

I hear you, but you know what, that's old-school football bro. Now, this new generation of players making a s**t load of money obviously see things from an economics perspective and there's nothing wrong with that. But to an old-skool football lover, it's kill or be killed, win or find another occupation.

I'm only offering this up as another perspective, not as a definitive answer. It's like Chris Rock in response to OJ killing his wife and Ron Goldman. "I'm not saying it was right, but I understand...."
[ Edited by GhostofFredDean74 on Apr 5, 2012 at 12:41 PM ]
Originally posted by jacklegniner:
Originally posted by DRUSTOPO:
Originally posted by jacklegniner:
I just saw this somewhere else.

(Finish this sentence) Greg Williams is most likely to be coaching.......................

Charlestown Chiefs

I was thinking something more like Mighty Mights...

I just made a post taking the moral high road, and I can't tell you how much I love this movie and the antics of the Hanson brothers. Got me.
If this isn't enough evidence for a life-time ban, I don't know what is!

And Payton wants to "appeal" the punishment? Ha! If anything, he should be banned as well for lying about it and trying to cover it up.
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by HessianDud:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by HessianDud:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
IMO, if you're not cheating you're not trying. Good that these fools got caught, and they got caught because they were so brazen/open about it. But my bottom line is, I want my team(s) to be this aggressive and win at all costs (this is a violent sport where winning trumps all, even sportsmanship and civility), just be discreet about it...and don't get caught.

pushing the limits of the rules is one thing, outright cheating is another--just like the realities of a violent sport is one thing, and intentionally injuring players is another.

True, but it's a cut-throat sport where losing isn't tolerated. I guess I'm old school and know that this kinda stuff used to happen pretty regularly, cuz at the end of the day, these are MEN playing a MAN'S sport, not little girls playing hopscotch.

yeah, i get it. i basically agree, but even in a violent sport of manly men there can be good sportsmanship. you can be both a gentleman and a brute. i don't want to root for a cheater, either.

Off the field, you can be as friendly as you want, but on the field there's a war going on. And again, cheating happens all the time to certain degrees (holding, pushing WRs off-route, exaggerating snap counts, etc.). Yes, this was a few levels above that, but let's be serious here. When Williams was saying "take the head out," he wasn't saying to chop someone's head off. He was looking to concuss someone so they either couldn't play or would play impaired.

IMO, the only difference here is that the coach BRAZENLY AND OPENLY directed this (and added the bounty), whereas most teams try to do this (take out their opponent's best player) as part of their game-plan. I'm not defending the openness or the bounty aspect of it in any way, I think it was stupid. But I will defend their desire to punish and take out certain guys if/where possible, because frankly, that's football.

its not a war, its a game.

but yeah, the issue here is the openness, the flaunting of the breaking of the rules, how systemic it was. i too have no problem in teams playing physical and targeting weaknesses. and i don't actually know if i would classify the bounties as "cheating" (except as far as salary structures go), its just un-sportsmanlike, and, ultimately, they're just being made an example of. they brought it upon themselves and this should help keep the game "clean."

as far as cheating, I think there's a difference in WR's pushing off, or Harbaugh's shifts designed to get guys offsides, and, say, spying on your opponents practices. its like lies and white lies, I guess, and I agree that a "white lie" cheat is part of sport.
There are many layers to this issue:

Coaches involved in bounty system
Outsider (gambler) involved in bounty system
Been warned about and lied about bounty system (lied to Goodell)
Specific injuries mentioned
After whistle injuries promoted
Specific players pointed out

It's one thing to promote hard hitting and even "clean" hits to the head, it is another to say every player should hit them on the head before leaving the pile. One thing to say tackle hard as opposed to "get his ACL."

Ronnie Lott hitting a ball carrier in the head with his shoulder was leagal. That is a part of football. Pointing out that a player should be injured by a cheap shot has not been a part of the game for years except by some players. Remember how shocked everyone was when the Raider DBs were celebrating knockouts? Then they paralyzed Stingley and rules changed, attitudes changed, and it was no longer acceptible to promote injuries.

Williams went way beyond any acceptible norm and should be banned for life. Payton should be given a longer penalty and if proof of his knowledge of these bounties is unearthed, he should suffer the same fate as Williams.

If this is happening on other teams, NYG for example, the same penalties need to be handed out. If the niners do this, then so be it, they should suffer the same consequences. Goodell is trying to reduce tramatic head injuries and that message should be reinforced by coaches, not ignored. I love football but do not want to see players continue to be injured at the current rate. Too many examples of early dementia in the vets.
[ Edited by dtg_9er on Apr 5, 2012 at 12:43 PM ]
Originally posted by BSofSF:
Originally posted by jacklegniner:
Originally posted by DRUSTOPO:
Originally posted by jacklegniner:
I just saw this somewhere else.

(Finish this sentence) Greg Williams is most likely to be coaching.......................

Charlestown Chiefs

I was thinking something more like Mighty Mights...

I just made a post taking the moral high road, and I can't tell you how much I love this movie and the antics of the Hanson brothers. Got me.

lol...its a classic
Originally posted by ghostrider:
Come at us bro.


FO REAL
[ Edited by sf49ersx11 on Apr 5, 2012 at 12:48 PM ]
he needs a lifetime ban! he wasn't giving an inspirational speach, he was giving instructions on what to do to players. there is no need for that in the nfl. i know its a violent game, but he is using the violence to his advantage. serioulsy hurting players with intent is just messed up. sounds like he knew the 49ers offense was better than his defense and he knew he needed an edge by injurying someone. thats mess up. good bye williams!
Originally posted by HessianDud:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by HessianDud:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by HessianDud:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
IMO, if you're not cheating you're not trying. Good that these fools got caught, and they got caught because they were so brazen/open about it. But my bottom line is, I want my team(s) to be this aggressive and win at all costs (this is a violent sport where winning trumps all, even sportsmanship and civility), just be discreet about it...and don't get caught.

pushing the limits of the rules is one thing, outright cheating is another--just like the realities of a violent sport is one thing, and intentionally injuring players is another.

True, but it's a cut-throat sport where losing isn't tolerated. I guess I'm old school and know that this kinda stuff used to happen pretty regularly, cuz at the end of the day, these are MEN playing a MAN'S sport, not little girls playing hopscotch.

yeah, i get it. i basically agree, but even in a violent sport of manly men there can be good sportsmanship. you can be both a gentleman and a brute. i don't want to root for a cheater, either.

Off the field, you can be as friendly as you want, but on the field there's a war going on. And again, cheating happens all the time to certain degrees (holding, pushing WRs off-route, exaggerating snap counts, etc.). Yes, this was a few levels above that, but let's be serious here. When Williams was saying "take the head out," he wasn't saying to chop someone's head off. He was looking to concuss someone so they either couldn't play or would play impaired.

IMO, the only difference here is that the coach BRAZENLY AND OPENLY directed this (and added the bounty), whereas most teams try to do this (take out their opponent's best player) as part of their game-plan. I'm not defending the openness or the bounty aspect of it in any way, I think it was stupid. But I will defend their desire to punish and take out certain guys if/where possible, because frankly, that's football.

its not a war, its a game.

but yeah, the issue here is the openness, the flaunting of the breaking of the rules, how systemic it was. i too have no problem in teams playing physical and targeting weaknesses. and i don't actually know if i would classify the bounties as "cheating" (except as far as salary structures go), its just un-sportsmanlike, and, ultimately, they're just being made an example of. they brought it upon themselves and this should help keep the game "clean."

as far as cheating, I think there's a difference in WR's pushing off, or Harbaugh's shifts designed to get guys offsides, and, say, spying on your opponents practices. its like lies and white lies, I guess, and I agree that a "white lie" cheat is part of sport.

Tell those guys on the field that it's "a game"....they would beg to differ. Technically you're correct (especially with respect to war, killing and dying), but calling it a mere game is not a true reflection of what's happening on and off the field.
Originally posted by FILTHpigskin:
Yeah, that's gotta suck.
But we'll get 'em next year... legally!

NOW WERE TALKIN!!!!!!!
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