There are 68 users in the forums

Remember
Not a member? Register Now!

Brees, 1.5 seconds, and alex

Originally posted by Shaj:
I realize that, but the point is, it is a form of excuses. For instance, let's say we drafted Desean Jackson. There'd be excuses here that Jackson is a diminutive receiver as compared to NO and therefore Alex doesn't have weapons. Do you not see this??

Well what if we had Desean and our offense blew up due to his skill set? Your are automatically implying that would never happen.

Gotta love the assumption arguments.

"Do you not see this??" - How's anybody supposed to see an assumption?
  • Shemp
  • Hall of Fame
  • Posts: 26,733
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Originally posted by Shaj:
I realize that, but the point is, it is a form of excuses. For instance, let's say we drafted Desean Jackson. There'd be excuses here that Jackson is a diminutive receiver as compared to NO and therefore Alex doesn't have weapons. Do you not see this??

Well what if we had Desean and our offense blew up due to his skill set? Your are automatically implying that would never happen.

Gotta love the assumption arguments.

"Do you not see this??" - How's anybody supposed to see an assumption?

Someone did the analysis before, in the now closed Alex Smith thread. We've brought in so many receivers that had great stats elsewhere and came here and could produce nothing. You draw your own conclusions.
Originally posted by Shaj:
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Originally posted by Shaj:
I realize that, but the point is, it is a form of excuses. For instance, let's say we drafted Desean Jackson. There'd be excuses here that Jackson is a diminutive receiver as compared to NO and therefore Alex doesn't have weapons. Do you not see this??

Well what if we had Desean and our offense blew up due to his skill set? Your are automatically implying that would never happen.

Gotta love the assumption arguments.

"Do you not see this??" - How's anybody supposed to see an assumption?

Someone did the analysis before, in the now closed Alex Smith thread. We've brought in so many receivers that had great stats elsewhere and came here and could produce nothing. You draw your own conclusions.

Antonio Bryant who would have had over 1000 yards if not for his supsension? VD who is a Pro-Bowler? Ashley Lelie? Issac Bruce after the fact? A hurt Braylon Edwards? Brandon Lloyd in which we drafted and didn't have a breakout year until last season? I have drawn a pretty good conclusion there Shajjy.

Edit: I know we drafted VD as well, but my point on him is that he is/was a pro-bowler who at the time tied the td record. How does that happen with no QB?
[ Edited by JiksJuicy on Jan 9, 2012 at 9:22 AM ]
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Originally posted by Shaj:
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Originally posted by Shaj:
I realize that, but the point is, it is a form of excuses. For instance, let's say we drafted Desean Jackson. There'd be excuses here that Jackson is a diminutive receiver as compared to NO and therefore Alex doesn't have weapons. Do you not see this??

Well what if we had Desean and our offense blew up due to his skill set? Your are automatically implying that would never happen.

Gotta love the assumption arguments.

"Do you not see this??" - How's anybody supposed to see an assumption?

Someone did the analysis before, in the now closed Alex Smith thread. We've brought in so many receivers that had great stats elsewhere and came here and could produce nothing. You draw your own conclusions.

Antonio Bryant who would have had over 1000 yards if not for his supsension? VD who is a Pro-Bowler? Ashley Lelie? Issac Bruce after the fact? A hurt Braylon Edwards? Brandon Lloyd in which we drafted and didn't have a breakout year until last season? I have drawn a pretty good conclusion there Shajjy.

bradon lloys is only effective in josh mcdaniel system

he sucked this year without mcdaniels
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Originally posted by Shaj:
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Originally posted by Shaj:
I realize that, but the point is, it is a form of excuses. For instance, let's say we drafted Desean Jackson. There'd be excuses here that Jackson is a diminutive receiver as compared to NO and therefore Alex doesn't have weapons. Do you not see this??

Well what if we had Desean and our offense blew up due to his skill set? Your are automatically implying that would never happen.

Gotta love the assumption arguments.

"Do you not see this??" - How's anybody supposed to see an assumption?

Someone did the analysis before, in the now closed Alex Smith thread. We've brought in so many receivers that had great stats elsewhere and came here and could produce nothing. You draw your own conclusions.

Antonio Bryant who would have had over 1000 yards if not for his supsension? VD who is a Pro-Bowler? Ashley Lelie? Issac Bruce after the fact? A hurt Braylon Edwards? Brandon Lloyd in which we drafted and didn't have a breakout year until last season? I have drawn a pretty good conclusion there Shajjy.

Edit: I know we drafted VD as well, but my point on him is that he is/was a pro-bowler who at the time tied the td record. How does that happen with no QB?

Brandon Lloyd had 733 yards on only 48 catches his 3rd and last year with us. To say he never broke out is false. He was definitely on the cusp in his 3rd hear in the NFL. People on this board were saying he's too slow to be a deep threat and some of us kept saying it is not all about speed. You have to throw the ball when a receiver is even and give him a chance to make a play. So, because he wasn't used more or thrown to more does not mean we didn't have the talent in him. Even our current receivers have the talent but you can't over throw them all the time. You have to give them a chance to make plays which most other teams do.
Originally posted by Joecool:
I'm worried about running too many stunts. They will kill us with certain plays if we try too many stunts and I'm sure the Saints know we do that well and need to stuff Brees from the front. What I would do is tighten up Justin Smith and Ice up front. Allow Aldon to commit around but stop and flatten his rush to about the 5 yard deep mark and meet Brees on his step forward as he loves to do and assign Justin Smith and ICE to go full boar on the front push.

IMO Joe, Fangio will come up with a great game plan and adjust on the fly as he always does. The stunts will be there at the RIGHT times, watch. I expect more edge rushing, too, from Aldon, Brooks and Parys. I expect to see us all standing up at times, not showing who's rushing in. But you are correct in that the main three, Justin, Ice and Ray need to push into the pocket on those 1st downs and on those obvious running plays. I expect us to come out in our base to start as I expect the Saints to test our run D and try to do what Seattle did with Lynch.

We have do have a challenge, but I expect our boys to rise to the occasion and whoop azz!!!
Hessian, everyone would probably agree we run frank and grind it out. Problem with that was that in the preseason saints game, they had 8, 9, and sometimes 10 guys either at the LOS or looking like they were going to LOS. They played box 8 all game, and frank had trouble running. Basically, a run, even by frank isn't going very far if it looks like 8-10 guys standing on LOS. Now, the Saints did disguise who was coming and who wasn't and most times 5 or 6 guys came. Same was in the Ravens game. Before we can run frank, we have to get the saints off the LOS. Quick slants and outs basically is the only answer. In defense of our OL in both games, it must be incredibly hard to see 2 guys standing in front of you and not knowing which is coming. I would really like to hear how Coach Harbaugh teaches how to recognize who is coming and who isn't . Also what if both guys come, up the middle, as frequently happened. How one coaches that would be very interesting to know.

As for tall receivers vs shorter ones, I agree with JoeC that NO has done a terrific job digesting new rules and then going out and getting 6'5" WRs. Also, i agree that position is high on our draft list, probably #1 ( and i like to draft OL guys). Amount of time spent with a WR is key for most WR/QB combos, so they can learn each other's moves. For some guys like brees, it takes a lot less time. For alex, more time, but admittedly, he has not had a great stable of WRs around him. In defense of the GM, we needed OL a lot more than we needed WRs, if for no other reason than to keep our qB from getting killed. Obviously there was going to come a time when not choosing WRs high in the draft was going to hurt us, but we just needed so many other pieces first, that I think Baalke did just fine. NOW we need WRs. Incidentally, last time I checked, Wes Welker was a lot shorter than 6'5", and he seems to have done just fine....proving that not EVERYBODY has to be 6'5" to be a great receiver. Still it's way better to be tall.

Tico, i like your assessment of the passrush/blitz, but i also like the idea mentioned above of ALL DONE stunting with his inside man and coming up the middle at times. My personal favorite for aldon is to move around much like an elephant man, blitzing from where he sees an OL opening. He is so good from the outside that it seems a shame to have him stunt going up the middle, but probably anything that kid does is going to be tough on the OL. The comment earlier about Brees's' OGs and to some extent C, giving him a clear view of the field is a huge advantage. If we can put pressure on him up the middle it can only be good news for us.
Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Hessian, everyone would probably agree we run frank and grind it out. Problem with that was that in the preseason saints game, they had 8, 9, and sometimes 10 guys either at the LOS or looking like they were going to LOS. They played box 8 all game, and frank had trouble running. Basically, a run, even by frank isn't going very far if it looks like 8-10 guys standing on LOS. Now, the Saints did disguise who was coming and who wasn't and most times 5 or 6 guys came. Same was in the Ravens game. Before we can run frank, we have to get the saints off the LOS. Quick slants and outs basically is the only answer. In defense of our OL in both games, it must be incredibly hard to see 2 guys standing in front of you and not knowing which is coming. I would really like to hear how Coach Harbaugh teaches how to recognize who is coming and who isn't . Also what if both guys come, up the middle, as frequently happened. How one coaches that would be very interesting to know.

As for tall receivers vs shorter ones, I agree with JoeC that NO has done a terrific job digesting new rules and then going out and getting 6'5" WRs. Also, i agree that position is high on our draft list, probably #1 ( and i like to draft OL guys). Amount of time spent with a WR is key for most WR/QB combos, so they can learn each other's moves. For some guys like brees, it takes a lot less time. For alex, more time, but admittedly, he has not had a great stable of WRs around him. In defense of the GM, we needed OL a lot more than we needed WRs, if for no other reason than to keep our qB from getting killed. Obviously there was going to come a time when not choosing WRs high in the draft was going to hurt us, but we just needed so many other pieces first, that I think Baalke did just fine. NOW we need WRs. Incidentally, last time I checked, Wes Welker was a lot shorter than 6'5", and he seems to have done just fine....proving that not EVERYBODY has to be 6'5" to be a great receiver. Still it's way better to be tall.

Tico, i like your assessment of the passrush/blitz, but i also like the idea mentioned above of ALL DONE stunting with his inside man and coming up the middle at times. My personal favorite for aldon is to move around much like an elephant man, blitzing from where he sees an OL opening. He is so good from the outside that it seems a shame to have him stunt going up the middle, but probably anything that kid does is going to be tough on the OL. The comment earlier about Brees's' OGs and to some extent C, giving him a clear view of the field is a huge advantage. If we can put pressure on him up the middle it can only be good news for us.

Since Brees is only 6 foot, getting pressure from the middle will only disrupt him even more because we can fill the throwing lanes with tall pass rushers and lineman. We just have to be relentless through the middle.

Then, Bowman and Willis will take care of the "dumps" to Sproles as Brees don't run much. I expect Sproles to stay in and protect at times...that's Willis' bread n buttter....if the RB stays in, go get him as well sending yet another rusher. Willis/Bowman then can cover the RB or attack the QB. I've seen sacks from the inside like this in the past.

We do have some incredible defensive talent to neutralize their offensive prowess. Again, relentless is the word of the day.
Yikes @ this thread.

I think a more interesting comparison would be Alex Smith 2005-2010 vs Alex Smith 2011. It would be interesting to know what he's doing differently from a technical stand point.
LambdaChi, the easy answer is finally , continuity at OC, HC, OL, as well as having a HC who has been a QB in nfl for 10+ seasons, who also happens to be a QB coach. Long ago, I said we could never have continuity here with a DC as HC. Well, now alex has the pieces he needs for grounding, but still needs the WRs. Vernon does fine, but is used primarily as a blocker(with 4.3 speed), morgan is out, delanie is out, kyle is out, and Ginn is out. Compared to Brees, Brady, Rodgers, alex has nothing to help him out at WR like those guys do. Alex is winning with Coach Harbaugh another way....few INTs, fewer passes than top QBs, best D in nfl playoffs now that Steelers are out, best STs in the league, best ILBs in league, ROY in ALL DONE, Justin Smith et al, rogers, Culliver, t.brown, and a vastly improved OL plus frank and Hunter.

That is the obvious answer. But just looking at 05-2010, alex is getting protected for the first time, (except in preseason saints and texans games) and Ravens game. If a QB is on his back it is hard to complete a pass. Same goes for clete marks on his helmet. Technically it is hard to see the difference except for the obvious hesitation to throw anything but a complete pass or a throwaway. That has to be Coach Harbaugh's gameplan with alex, and alex bought into it since he had no instruction since coming here... a disgrace to draft a guy #1 in draft and then never coach him. sheesh. Looking back at film it looks like same guy. Just no passes that are chancey. He obviously has learned to throw it in dirt or the stands if receivers are covered. He didn't do that before.
Originally posted by LambdaChi49:
Yikes @ this thread.

I think a more interesting comparison would be Alex Smith 2005-2010 vs Alex Smith 2011. It would be interesting to know what he's doing differently from a technical stand point.

Mostly everything I.M.O. And that's the main reason I believe he is and will be a legit NFL QB.

From foot work, to throwing motion, pocket awareness, leadership, abilitiy at the line, rushing, not making BONEHEAD mistakes, and so fourth. He has improved. Is there still room for improvement, oh most defianetly! But to me that is a good thing. We all know Harbaugh's attention to detail. I think that has shown in Alex progress in most of his technicalities(sp).
[ Edited by JiksJuicy on Jan 9, 2012 at 2:04 PM ]
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dj43:
Two points:

1. The reason Brees can get the ball out as quickly as he does is because of the time he and his receivers have had with this offense.

2. The quality of his receiving corp, particularly how well they read defenses, gives him a great deal of confidence to throw the ball knowing if he is slightly off target they will go get it.

The main thrust of this article underscores why most early draft mocks have the 49ers taking a WR in the first round, second at the latest.

1. Of course time in the offense affects this attribute but he's also a great QB and has great anticipation which is the primary reason for him getting the ball out so quickly. His best receivers: one wasn't on the team last year and the other is in his best receiver never played football in college and it is only his 2nd year in the NFL. Explain that.

2. I don't agree with this at all. His receivers also dropped some balls in the game vs DET. They make the plays because the ball is thrown often where they are allowed to make the plays. They expect it and those plays are no thinking quick react and catch instincts. Crabtree has great hands and Ginn has shown he can make the difficult catch but has had issues with the wide open ones. Receivers are quoted time and time that the wide open ones are the harder ones and QB's even say the wide open throws are the harder ones to throw.
Nobody is questioning Brees. The discussion has been about how he is able to get the ball out so quickly. A big part of that is the fact his receivers have shown him they are reliable in catching the ball, even if somewhat off target. That along with the other issues I mentioned are a big part of it.
well IF this is the case, we just need to Jam the wr's at the LOS surely we can hold them up for that long. right!!!!! #sarcasm Pretty sure Brees had a clean pocket and at least 3-4 seconds on a LOT of his throws!!!
  • Shemp
  • Hall of Fame
  • Posts: 26,733
Originally posted by dj43:
Nobody is questioning Brees. The discussion has been about how he is able to get the ball out so quickly. A big part of that is the fact his receivers have shown him they are reliable in catching the ball, even if somewhat off target. That along with the other issues I mentioned are a big part of it.

If you watch, Brees also stands in throwing position all the time while in the pocket. He doesn't have to set his feet when he decides to throw, because they are already set. He saves some time this way and is able to make emergency throws whereas other QBs might have a sack instead. I saw an analyst detail this on film and I have noticed it ever since. He also has an incredibly quick release.
Originally posted by LambdaChi49:
Yikes @ this thread.

I think a more interesting comparison would be Alex Smith 2005-2010 vs Alex Smith 2011. It would be interesting to know what he's doing differently from a technical stand point.


I believe that the biggest difference with Smith this year is that he is being told not to try and make something out of a failed situation. In the past he would come off the field and face a defensive minded coach who wanted to know why he didn't get a first down. Now he comes off the field and Harbaugh already knows why he didn't succeed and will have some constructive observations about why the coverage was surprising, or the line broke down or...any number of other variables.

Smith is expected to take what the D gives, without turning the ball over and if there isn't anything there think of field position. Two fumbles and five interceptions have helped make this team a very effective and balanced team.

Smith was doing very well after Johnson took over as OC last year so he isn't suddenly a new player, but is working in a system that doesn't tip it's hand and depends on grinding out victories by being consistent, productive and toughminded...perfect for his game right now.