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OFFICIAL "GOTTA WATCH THE TAPE" thread: coaches film on 49ers sacks (RAVENS GAME

Originally posted by fearthe9ers:
Originally posted by qnnhan7:
To be fair Smith did tried to side step and stepped up in the pocket but he underestimated the guy's reach.


Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Yeah he did. But what i'm trying to say is his initial reaction into defenders face seals his fate.

i saw it differently. what i saw was AS drop back and try to set his feet for the throw that was clearly intended for MC from the get-go. when he saw he couldn't do that, due to the immediate pressure up the middle, he planted his left leg in order to push himself to the right and then try to step up in the pocket. i think we just disagree on what his intentions were. u see someone who panicked,i see someone who made the right instinctive reaction, but wasn't quick enough.

Let me show you what i mean. I think after that initial read when he sees the pressure, he takes a step left for no reason directly into the rusher in what i belive is an attempt at a juke move, then breaks right to a pocket but can't make it. His help was there could of had a better shot. The slot was wide open over the middle if he makes it there.







[ Edited by Young2Rice on Dec 15, 2011 at 10:53 PM ]
This was a brilliant post. Thank you Brazilian49er for posting. It's absolutely ridiculous the NFL is afraid to give this type of film to US fans. But I digress ....

After seeing this film and reading Barrows , something needs to be done about Goodwin. He's been an increasingly weak link. The pressure teams are sending at Smith is coming right up the middle and Goodwin is responsible for the majority of the immediate breakdowns in protection even when there's two 49ers in the vicinity of one defender. Simply, a double team shouldn't allow 1 guy to apply pressure so quickly. Whether or not Smith is holding the ball too long because he's rattled isn't the issue if the the initial protection is there.

This has to change.
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Originally posted by fearthe9ers:
Originally posted by qnnhan7:
To be fair Smith did tried to side step and stepped up in the pocket but he underestimated the guy's reach.


Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Yeah he did. But what i'm trying to say is his initial reaction into defenders face seals his fate.

i saw it differently. what i saw was AS drop back and try to set his feet for the throw that was clearly intended for MC from the get-go. when he saw he couldn't do that, due to the immediate pressure up the middle, he planted his left leg in order to push himself to the right and then try to step up in the pocket. i think we just disagree on what his intentions were. u see someone who panicked,i see someone who made the right instinctive reaction, but wasn't quick enough.

Let me show you what i mean. I think after that initial read when he sees the pressure, he takes a step left for no reason directly into the rusher in what i belive is an attempt at a juke move, then breaks right to a pocket but can't make it. His help was there could of had a better shot. The slot was wide open over the middle if he makes it there.








Dang, exposed.
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Let me show you what i mean. I think after that initial read when he sees the pressure, he takes a step left for no reason directly into the rusher in what i belive is an attempt at a juke move, then breaks right to a pocket but can't make it. His help was there could of had a better shot. The slot was wide open over the middle if he makes it there.








i kinda see what u mean, but still disagree with ur perception. wasn't this a play-action, seven step drop timing pass-route? in ur 1st pic , u seem to be suggesting AS abandon his drop back before it's complete and move to the right immediately. doesn't a QB have a reasonable expectation to not have insta-pressure up the middle?

this idea he should have seen the pressure faster is a bit of a stretch for me. remember, his back was to the line of scrimmage at one point(play-action). then after that he has to keep his eyes downfield, read the route, plant and release in one smooth motion. it's a timing route predicated on his drop back. when he plants his right leg, the next thing he wants to to is plant his left one foward in a passing stance. he sees he can't so changes the motion to get both feet parallel to get the hell out of dodge. u see it as a unnecessary juke to the left. i see it as a natural progression to change his momentum to evade the rush.

even if u r right on that one point, what's wrong with him trying to make something out of nothing? idk. all i know is we need to shore up against the middle pressure real quick.
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Originally posted by fearthe9ers:
Originally posted by qnnhan7:
To be fair Smith did tried to side step and stepped up in the pocket but he underestimated the guy's reach.


Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Yeah he did. But what i'm trying to say is his initial reaction into defenders face seals his fate.

i saw it differently. what i saw was AS drop back and try to set his feet for the throw that was clearly intended for MC from the get-go. when he saw he couldn't do that, due to the immediate pressure up the middle, he planted his left leg in order to push himself to the right and then try to step up in the pocket. i think we just disagree on what his intentions were. u see someone who panicked,i see someone who made the right instinctive reaction, but wasn't quick enough.

Let me show you what i mean. I think after that initial read when he sees the pressure, he takes a step left for no reason directly into the rusher in what i belive is an attempt at a juke move, then breaks right to a pocket but can't make it. His help was there could of had a better shot. The slot was wide open over the middle if he makes it there.








I think this is a little deceptive. In the second still, Goodwin is ALREADY beaten. There's no pocket to go to or it's holding on Goodwin. This breakdown happens so quickly, Smith would have had to be almost prescient to realize the pressure would immediately breakdown with TWO OL blocking (Iupati and Goodwin) and it would work just to his right. If you view this in real-time, you can understand better the timing of this play.

Look at the time stamps of these stills.

The first still is 0:19/0:23 - the defender BEATS a double team and clearly Goodwin and Iupati don't pick up the right guy - he charges right between them.

The second still 0:19/0:23 has the SAME time stamp as the first, now with Goodwin clearly behind the defender and Iupati realizing "oops my guy has a straight line towards my QB. I'm sorry but very few QBs can analyze an escape path in less than 1 second when a defender has beaten a double-team up the middle of an OL.

The second still 0:20/0:23 - Goodwin realizes his mistakes and tries to block the defender out of the play, but he's too close to Smith and he can't escape the arm tackle.

This is the same strategy we expect from Aldon and Justin against opponents and it's been extremely successful. Speed, pressure, forcing the QB into either a bad decision or sack. Aldon's sacks aren't a fluke. If this is true, why then do we expect Smith to scan, elude and pass against the same successful strategy our own defense uses against opponents? My point is the OL MUST hold their blocks for longer than 1 SECOND.
This has been even further eye opening. The fact that our OL is allowing DT's to split double teams within ONE SECOND in the middle is ASTOUNDING. There is no other way to describe aside from atrocious -- and all the synonyms that go with that.

I'm sorry, but a QB should be able to expect more than 1-2 seconds to actually look around and throw the ball. Frick, man, on Thursday Night Football tonight I watched Ryan stand there for 3 to 4 seconds.. 1st second look at first read, 2nd second look at 2nd read.. 3rd.. then fires to fourth read. We are lucky if our QB has enough time to see the first, and by the time that happens, he's prepping for a hit.
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
This has been even further eye opening. The fact that our OL is allowing DT's to split double teams within ONE SECOND in the middle is ASTOUNDING. There is no other way to describe aside from atrocious -- and all the synonyms that go with that.

I'm sorry, but a QB should be able to expect more than 1-2 seconds to actually look around and throw the ball. Frick, man, on Thursday Night Football tonight I watched Ryan stand there for 3 to 4 seconds.. 1st second look at first read, 2nd second look at 2nd read.. 3rd.. then fires to fourth read. We are lucky if our QB has enough time to see the first, and by the time that happens, he's prepping for a hit.

Usually it goes like this snap-barely gets through 3 step drop-scramble-try and make play-throw ball to receiver-receiver drops pass-fans blame Alex Smith
Does anyone else notice in most of these clips that Iupati is much farther forward blocking someone than the rest of the O-line, mostly the center and right guard. It seems like rather than stepping back a step or two and then blocking, which would prevent large gaps in the line from opening, that he is either blocking right at the line or stepping forward to block. The gaps created by this allow too many rushers to just come straight up the middle on us.

Is Iupati doing it wrong, should he be stepping back more before making his blocks so that the line is more of a pocket rather than a pocket with a hole in it?
Guys, I was just checking and it seems like the NFL did not put up the footage of the other sacks. However I have film on several sacks of both the Ravens and the Rams game. I'll try to post those later. Maybe in a separate thread so it won't be confusing.
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Originally posted by fearthe9ers:
Originally posted by qnnhan7:
To be fair Smith did tried to side step and stepped up in the pocket but he underestimated the guy's reach.


Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Yeah he did. But what i'm trying to say is his initial reaction into defenders face seals his fate.

i saw it differently. what i saw was AS drop back and try to set his feet for the throw that was clearly intended for MC from the get-go. when he saw he couldn't do that, due to the immediate pressure up the middle, he planted his left leg in order to push himself to the right and then try to step up in the pocket. i think we just disagree on what his intentions were. u see someone who panicked,i see someone who made the right instinctive reaction, but wasn't quick enough.

Let me show you what i mean. I think after that initial read when he sees the pressure, he takes a step left for no reason directly into the rusher in what i belive is an attempt at a juke move, then breaks right to a pocket but can't make it. His help was there could of had a better shot. The slot was wide open over the middle if he makes it there.








I think this is a little deceptive. In the second still, Goodwin is ALREADY beaten. There's no pocket to go to or it's holding on Goodwin. This breakdown happens so quickly, Smith would have had to be almost prescient to realize the pressure would immediately breakdown with TWO OL blocking (Iupati and Goodwin) and it would work just to his right. If you view this in real-time, you can understand better the timing of this play.

Look at the time stamps of these stills.

The first still is 0:19/0:23 - the defender BEATS a double team and clearly Goodwin and Iupati don't pick up the right guy - he charges right between them.

The second still 0:19/0:23 has the SAME time stamp as the first, now with Goodwin clearly behind the defender and Iupati realizing "oops my guy has a straight line towards my QB. I'm sorry but very few QBs can analyze an escape path in less than 1 second when a defender has beaten a double-team up the middle of an OL.

The second still 0:20/0:23 - Goodwin realizes his mistakes and tries to block the defender out of the play, but he's too close to Smith and he can't escape the arm tackle.

This is the same strategy we expect from Aldon and Justin against opponents and it's been extremely successful. Speed, pressure, forcing the QB into either a bad decision or sack. Aldon's sacks aren't a fluke. If this is true, why then do we expect Smith to scan, elude and pass against the same successful strategy our own defense uses against opponents? My point is the OL MUST hold their blocks for longer than 1 SECOND.

I agree here...for all intensive purposes the pressure right up the middle is instant! It's as if goodwin wasnt even there. Instinct exist, sure, but it's hard to say that right there he has to be able to recognize to step right instead of left when he wants to go left to hit the primary receiver on the play. To hit his primary receiver on the play he really wants to escape left but the instant pressure in the worst possible place, right in his face, made it really impossible to do anything.

On most other places where he got sacked he did look terrible though.
Originally posted by 1swift:
I agree here...for all intensive purposes the pressure right up the middle is instant! It's as if goodwin wasnt even there. Instinct exist, sure, but it's hard to say that right there he has to be able to recognize to step right instead of left when he wants to go left to hit the primary receiver on the play. To hit his primary receiver on the play he really wants to escape left but the instant pressure in the worst possible place, right in his face, made it really impossible to do anything.

On most other places where he got sacked he did look terrible though.

This play was typical of how he played in AZ, it was not a good game for goodwin. Often times he just looked slow to his assignment and immobile. Could be an injury, could be age, or a number of other things but it was a bad game for him. He is still a decent center but his play seems predicated more on veteran experience and rather than physical ability. A wiley vet who can get the job done, but will give up some plays due to no longer being quick enough to recover if he makes a mistake.
Originally posted by fearthe9ers:
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Let me show you what i mean. I think after that initial read when he sees the pressure, he takes a step left for no reason directly into the rusher in what i belive is an attempt at a juke move, then breaks right to a pocket but can't make it. His help was there could of had a better shot. The slot was wide open over the middle if he makes it there.








i kinda see what u mean, but still disagree with ur perception. wasn't this a play-action, seven step drop timing pass-route? in ur 1st pic , u seem to be suggesting AS abandon his drop back before it's complete and move to the right immediately. doesn't a QB have a reasonable expectation to not have insta-pressure up the middle?

this idea he should have seen the pressure faster is a bit of a stretch for me. remember, his back was to the line of scrimmage at one point(play-action). then after that he has to keep his eyes downfield, read the route, plant and release in one smooth motion. it's a timing route predicated on his drop back. when he plants his right leg, the next thing he wants to to is plant his left one foward in a passing stance. he sees he can't so changes the motion to get both feet parallel to get the hell out of dodge. u see it as a unnecessary juke to the left. i see it as a natural progression to change his momentum to evade the rush.

even if u r right on that one point, what's wrong with him trying to make something out of nothing? idk. all i know is we need to shore up against the middle pressure real quick.

This.
Originally posted by 5280High:
Originally posted by 1swift:
I agree here...for all intensive purposes the pressure right up the middle is instant! It's as if goodwin wasnt even there. Instinct exist, sure, but it's hard to say that right there he has to be able to recognize to step right instead of left when he wants to go left to hit the primary receiver on the play. To hit his primary receiver on the play he really wants to escape left but the instant pressure in the worst possible place, right in his face, made it really impossible to do anything.

On most other places where he got sacked he did look terrible though.

This play was typical of how he played in AZ, it was not a good game for goodwin. Often times he just looked slow to his assignment and immobile. Could be an injury, could be age, or a number of other things but it was a bad game for him. He is still a decent center but his play seems predicated more on veteran experience and rather than physical ability. A wiley vet who can get the job done, but will give up some plays due to no longer being quick enough to recover if he makes a mistake.

The Ravens were bringing a lot of pressure up the middle on Thanksgiving too. That's not good because Alex seems to have a lot of trouble when there's pressure up the middle and that's something I bet the Steelers have noticed.
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Originally posted by fearthe9ers:
Originally posted by qnnhan7:
To be fair Smith did tried to side step and stepped up in the pocket but he underestimated the guy's reach.


Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Yeah he did. But what i'm trying to say is his initial reaction into defenders face seals his fate.

i saw it differently. what i saw was AS drop back and try to set his feet for the throw that was clearly intended for MC from the get-go. when he saw he couldn't do that, due to the immediate pressure up the middle, he planted his left leg in order to push himself to the right and then try to step up in the pocket. i think we just disagree on what his intentions were. u see someone who panicked,i see someone who made the right instinctive reaction, but wasn't quick enough.

Let me show you what i mean. I think after that initial read when he sees the pressure, he takes a step left for no reason directly into the rusher in what i belive is an attempt at a juke move, then breaks right to a pocket but can't make it. His help was there could of had a better shot. The slot was wide open over the middle if he makes it there.








Love it! But totally disagree...the second pick shows he's hit his back step, ready to pass to the left side (your planting leg points to where you will throw..esp. for all these LONG sideline throws we ask of Smith; that' a whole other play-calling issue). As he plants to throw, he has a free rushing right up the gut in the QB pocket. I don't see him taking an unnecessary plant left here either...rather he is getting his left leg back square (from originally planting to throw) so he can MOVE right but it's still too late.

Also notice that VD is standing there blocking no one the entire time (if there is no one to block he should be releasing so Alex has more than one option to pass to on every single play).

And does anyone else notice that the majority of our passes are the hardest passes to make for a QB esp. under constant duress? The LONG passes across your body to the sideline to one side of the field...Alex is getting no outlets and this is a big issue that is even more magnified in the RZ.

Smith has one option to one side of the field in under 3 seconds every single time. This is inexcusable and I don't care who you have at QB, this is a losing situation in the NFL. Period.

The WCO is ALL about the outlets, multiple reads/options and exploiting the short-to-intermediate areas esp. the middle of the field. FAIL! We are trying to install a Raider offense with slow WR's.

Poor play-calling + poor OL + max protection (minimal passing options) + a QB who has been beaten up all year more than any QB in the NFL and grilled not to turn the ball over = 32nd ranked RZ offense and a trip to the pro bowl for Akers/Lee.
[ Edited by NCommand on Dec 16, 2011 at 7:55 AM ]
I rarely see Alex making presnap reads and communicating with the center to identify blitzers... part of that might be the Cards' scheme is new, and therefore, Alex doesn't recognize some of the blitzes because there's not much film on it. But it's not something I've seen much of in general. The best QBs are always communicating with their o-line to identify different blitzers, like who the mike linebacker is and such.