This article has it backwards!

Two things: First, since noln was 2-0, and smirked about how well we were doing, just prior to the 9ers going into the tank, the main reason for our tailspin was lack of ANY semblance of O coaching, playcalling, etc. But the thing that started as a 6 yr bugaboo, became an every Sunday occurence. Our very next opponent began what has for us been a weekly Sunday menu of ....Box 8. Worse, frequently with our Qb calling signals, frequently that box 8 became a box 9, or even 10.

Now, some 6 yrs. later, it is known in every cotton picking nfl clubhouse that the 9ers don't know what to do against a Box 8, or stacked line, if you will . There are two problems here. First is that it doesn't seem apparent that our coaching staff could even diagnose that a box 8 was coming, and worse, if they did , they had no anwer for it.
As mentioned above, when you have 8 or 9 guys on LOS and most or all are coming (okay say only 6 or 7 come), the worst call to counter that Defense is a running play, in that all lanes are filled with D players. Go back and look at why Frank's numbers were 2.3 yds/carry in last game(and others, going back into last yr). The answer: when a run play was called, it wasn't that frank lost a step...there was just no place to run through with 8 guys already on LOS.

The more immediate and obvious thing is that alex has been playing QB pinata against a box 8. Why in the world would a coach call a 3, 5, 7 or worse, a 9 step drop, when by the time alex runs back to set up, he is hit, mauled, sacked, knocked down before he can even get a look at the field. This is a blatant coaching failure, and somewhere along the line, alex has to be given instruction and permission to check off to a quick hitting slant or out when he sees 8, 9 or 10 guys milling around the LOS.

Second, noln and BM(bigMike) had no awareness nor answer for the box 8...but a HC who is able to coach every position on the team, in addition to being an excellent play caller (in college), should by now know that we are going to see a box 8 every Sunday, and he MUST come up with a counter to it. Personally with that many guys on LOS i do not believe that a screen has even a remote chance of working in that there are 3 guys free to have a straight shot at alex. But, a 1 step quick slant or out has a very high percent chance of working against it. Problem is, Harbaugh has not showed us that he recognizes the box 8, or if he does, he does not call the quick hitter that would break the box 8's back. Oddly, the first O call of the game against Cincy was exactly that, a quick hitter for 7 yds against 8 or 9 guys either on the LOS or a step off it. The play worked to perfection and then...we didn't see that call again all game. (maybe once). So what gives, Coach. Harbaugh obviously can see it, but he either isn't calling quick slants/outs in to alex, or alex isn't recognizing that there are way more guys on LOS than can be blocked.

Makes our OL look like camel dung floating down the river, but the 9ers OL cannot block 3 more guys than we have on LOS. Sure our OL stinks. But really, I put this on our innovative and clever HC. He should know what he sees, and he should know how to counter it. What he doesn't seem to grasp is that every team is going to put 8 guys up near LOS until we make them back off with quick slants/ outs. I guarantee this: if Harbaugh were to do nothing but throw dinks and dunks, that LOS would quickly be vacated by all but 3 or 4 guys...and those our OL could block. That would then later open up running lanes for frank or hunter, and would also open up our mid to deep passing game. The answer is so simple I just don't get why JH isn't doing it . Watch every one of our OL players look like good blockers once we get 8 guys off LOS.
Question is why isn't JH doing this?

Originally posted by 1stAndGoal49ers:
If you have a passing attack that poses a threat in the middle of the field the LB's will not be so eager to fill the gaps to shut down the run without fear of getting beat down the middle of the field.A good passing attack will make the run blitz go away.

and how did that work out for us when Crabtree dropped an easy pass over the middle you speak of?

Originally posted by Memphis9er:

Originally posted by dj43:
The biggest problem, and it isn't even close, is continued poor play of the OL.

That having been said, as to the matter of running game versus passing game, I'll skip the Alex vs Frank portion of it and go to another area that is more of an issue than many seem to recognize: Receivers with speed.

Several articles are out talking about the speed of the Eagle receivers. They are fast. VERY fast. And they cause problems for everyone, and they will likely cause problems for the 49er secondary on Sunday.

In contrast, the 49er receiving corp has been focused on being sturdy blockers for a power running game rather than speedy receivers who can get open. While the Eagles were picking DeSean Jackson and Jeremy Maclin, the 49er grabbed guys like Arnaz Battle and Joshua Morgan, two guys who block well but do not scare any secondary in the league. Michael Crabtree was highly touted for his college exploits but he has only average speed for an NFL wideout. Ted Ginn has speed but due to his receiving deficiencies he is useful only as a returner. He's exciting in that role but no one fears him the way they fear Maclin and Jackson. Vernon Davis has great speed for a TE but due to the problems with the OL he spends far too much time blocking for the only guy on the team with speed anyone would worry about, which takes us back to the OL...

Oh yes, there has been Lloyd and Williams and Williams and a few other guys in the mid to lower rounds, skittery little guys who only come into play when there is a legitimate speed threat or two on the team, and that is something that has not been here since Owens left.

This team is still a team built around power running and just a coaching change, as desirable and needed as it was, cannot change the makeup of the personnel of the team. This is still Mike Nolan/Mike Singletary's team and it will take another two years of shrewd drafting to bring in the kind of speedy offensive players who can perform at a level that will allow Harbaugh to truly bring out the Bill Walsh offense.

So now back to the Alex vs Frank discussion...if you must...

This is true to some extent, but Rice and Taylor were able yo get open frequently because of route running. You do not have to be fast like the eagles guys to be a threat, you just have to be able to get off the line clean and get open. Speed is a good thing, but running clean routes is overlooked by many people.

All true. Good addition. Again, it points to the need to EMPHASIZE the passing game rather than giving it passive attention while the major focus is on blocking and running.

One of the areas in which the passing game suffered the past few years has been in the utter failure of Pete Hoehner to teach Vernon Davis how to read defenses and blitz packages and get into those open areas. We have not had a TE here that can perform those basic functions since Eric Johnson left.

If a TE is watching the blitz, there is always an open area created in which to move to be available for that quick pass that beats the blitz. Though Davis got some yards against the Bengals, they were not on the kind of moves that makes a team pay for the blitz. Put VD into the space opened by a blitz and he is immediately one-on-one against a safety, and there are not many safeties in the league that can come close to handling that challenge.

I think the reason why the niners offense has been ineffective for the last nine season is a combination of things. In the past we tried to marry a Coryel based power man blocking system which requires a quarterback that is highly accurate on intermediate and deep passes with .Unfortunately the Qbs we have started are more West Coast, accurate in a ten yard area. Teams aren't stupid they play the percentage they stack he box because the know only two things can hurt them the inside run and the tighted seam. Once the personel changes you will probally see a evolution to more zone blocking and horizontal routes similiar to Philly, Houston and Washington. This will enable the current quarterbacks and receivers on our roster to flourish. Unfortunately it will mean they will have to phase out Frank Gore because he is a relatively ineffective outside and cutback runner.

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by 1stAndGoal49ers:
If you have a passing attack that poses a threat in the middle of the field the LB's will not be so eager to fill the gaps to shut down the run without fear of getting beat down the middle of the field.A good passing attack will make the run blitz go away.

and how did that work out for us when Crabtree dropped an easy pass over the middle you speak of?

oh I get it, so you give up on it right?

especially because the QB throwing him the ball was perfect during his first action on the field this year.

Originally posted by Memphis9er:

Originally posted by dj43:
The biggest problem, and it isn't even close, is continued poor play of the OL.

That having been said, as to the matter of running game versus passing game, I'll skip the Alex vs Frank portion of it and go to another area that is more of an issue than many seem to recognize: Receivers with speed.

Several articles are out talking about the speed of the Eagle receivers. They are fast. VERY fast. And they cause problems for everyone, and they will likely cause problems for the 49er secondary on Sunday.

In contrast, the 49er receiving corp has been focused on being sturdy blockers for a power running game rather than speedy receivers who can get open. While the Eagles were picking DeSean Jackson and Jeremy Maclin, the 49er grabbed guys like Arnaz Battle and Joshua Morgan, two guys who block well but do not scare any secondary in the league. Michael Crabtree was highly touted for his college exploits but he has only average speed for an NFL wideout. Ted Ginn has speed but due to his receiving deficiencies he is useful only as a returner. He's exciting in that role but no one fears him the way they fear Maclin and Jackson. Vernon Davis has great speed for a TE but due to the problems with the OL he spends far too much time blocking for the only guy on the team with speed anyone would worry about, which takes us back to the OL...

Oh yes, there has been Lloyd and Williams and Williams and a few other guys in the mid to lower rounds, skittery little guys who only come into play when there is a legitimate speed threat or two on the team, and that is something that has not been here since Owens left.

This team is still a team built around power running and just a coaching change, as desirable and needed as it was, cannot change the makeup of the personnel of the team. This is still Mike Nolan/Mike Singletary's team and it will take another two years of shrewd drafting to bring in the kind of speedy offensive players who can perform at a level that will allow Harbaugh to truly bring out the Bill Walsh offense.

So now back to the Alex vs Frank discussion...if you must...

This is true to some extent, but Rice and Taylor were able yo get open frequently because of route running. You do not have to be fast like the eagles guys to be a threat, you just have to be able to get off the line clean and get open. Speed is a good thing, but running clean routes is overlooked by many people.

So true. We also don't know how many open deep passes the QB has overlooked and it appears he's overlooked quite a few. Morgan ran a 4.41 forty. Brandon Lloyd HAS proven to be a deep threat without Brandon Marshall. Ginn being a returner has ZERO affect on his ability to be used as a deep threat (See Deshaen Jackson).

The QB has a HUGE influence in finding the receivers open deep. Take a look at Brandon Marshall's number of 20+ yard catches with a crappier QB in MIA. He went from having 11, 16, and 13 catches of 20+ yards in DEN to 9 last year in MIA.

Between Vernon, Morgan (deceptively fast and it has been quoted in an article), and Ginn...we HAVE the deep threats. We just don't have a QB who can throw a late deep ball and get there with major zip without having to stop, set, have the space to step and then make the throw. THAT makes a huge difference.

I can't believe Alex Smith has destroyed Frank as a running back!

Niner Talk strikes again.

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Memphis9er:
This team in general is hurt by line play. Teams are blitzing us and just stopping the run on the way to the qb, we don't throw enough screens or quick passes to keep them honest, which is messed up because Smith has been one of the top qbs throwing against the blitz this year. The offense is not working in general because the line is blocking poorly, which leads to the skill players not having the time to get open to make plays. You can't really blame it on the passing game when it is the only part of the offense working. You have to look no further than the offensive line to see why the offense as a whole is struggling. Bottom line everyone is responsible from the coaches to the playcallers to the players. I expect the offense to get better as the line does.

I sort of disagree here. Teams are not just blitzing on us, they are bringing more guys than we can block. It is on the QB/WR/TE to be able to execute the quick-hit one-step throws. We are not doing this because Harbaugh doesn't call it or the QB/WR/TE cannot execute it.

Biggest problem with one-step drops has been the inability of the center to hold his ground. Even against Cincy Goodwin was being immediately pushed back as soon as he snapped the ball. That did get a little better in the second half but most of that was on three-step drops. Again, it's the OL.

It's a combo of both. Smith doesn't use his natural ability to throw a needed jump pass and the OL doesn't give him much room to step and throw. I have yet to see Alex throw an accurate short pass without room to step. In the CIN game, his short hoppers were when he didn't have room to step. He just doesn't have the arm to make that type of throw.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Memphis9er:

Originally posted by dj43:
The biggest problem, and it isn't even close, is continued poor play of the OL.

That having been said, as to the matter of running game versus passing game, I'll skip the Alex vs Frank portion of it and go to another area that is more of an issue than many seem to recognize: Receivers with speed.

Several articles are out talking about the speed of the Eagle receivers. They are fast. VERY fast. And they cause problems for everyone, and they will likely cause problems for the 49er secondary on Sunday.

In contrast, the 49er receiving corp has been focused on being sturdy blockers for a power running game rather than speedy receivers who can get open. While the Eagles were picking DeSean Jackson and Jeremy Maclin, the 49er grabbed guys like Arnaz Battle and Joshua Morgan, two guys who block well but do not scare any secondary in the league. Michael Crabtree was highly touted for his college exploits but he has only average speed for an NFL wideout. Ted Ginn has speed but due to his receiving deficiencies he is useful only as a returner. He's exciting in that role but no one fears him the way they fear Maclin and Jackson. Vernon Davis has great speed for a TE but due to the problems with the OL he spends far too much time blocking for the only guy on the team with speed anyone would worry about, which takes us back to the OL...

Oh yes, there has been Lloyd and Williams and Williams and a few other guys in the mid to lower rounds, skittery little guys who only come into play when there is a legitimate speed threat or two on the team, and that is something that has not been here since Owens left.

This team is still a team built around power running and just a coaching change, as desirable and needed as it was, cannot change the makeup of the personnel of the team. This is still Mike Nolan/Mike Singletary's team and it will take another two years of shrewd drafting to bring in the kind of speedy offensive players who can perform at a level that will allow Harbaugh to truly bring out the Bill Walsh offense.

So now back to the Alex vs Frank discussion...if you must...

This is true to some extent, but Rice and Taylor were able yo get open frequently because of route running. You do not have to be fast like the eagles guys to be a threat, you just have to be able to get off the line clean and get open. Speed is a good thing, but running clean routes is overlooked by many people.

So true. We also don't know how many open deep passes the QB has overlooked and it appears he's overlooked quite a few. Morgan ran a 4.41 forty. Brandon Lloyd HAS proven to be a deep threat without Brandon Marshall. Ginn being a returner has ZERO affect on his ability to be used as a deep threat (See Deshaen Jackson).

The QB has a HUGE influence in finding the receivers open deep. Take a look at Brandon Marshall's number of 20+ yard catches with a crappier QB in MIA. He went from having 11, 16, and 13 catches of 20+ yards in DEN to 9 last year in MIA.

Between Vernon, Morgan (deceptively fast and it has been quoted in an article), and Ginn...we HAVE the deep threats. We just don't have a QB who can throw a late deep ball and get there with major zip without having to stop, set, have the space to step and then make the throw. THAT makes a huge difference.

Certainly speed alone is not enough or Renaldo Nehemiah would have been the greatest 49er receiver ever. (charges frantically to Google)

Running clean routes is critical, and that is yet another failure of recent 49er position coaches. Under Nolan and Singletary guys kept on the practice field until the routes got cleaned up and the results have been obvious. Lloyd is an example. It wasn't until he got humbled before he cleaned up his act.

As to the strength of Smith's arm; it hasn't looked to be lacking on balls like the PI toss to Gore or the 39 yarder to VD.

The lack of volume in the passing game is a combination of things, all of which are going to take time, coaching and some new personnel before this team will consistently be a threat to put up 300 yards/game on a consistent basis.

Originally posted by Joecool:

So true. We also don't know how many open deep passes the QB has overlooked and it appears he's overlooked quite a few. Morgan ran a 4.41 forty. Brandon Lloyd HAS proven to be a deep threat without Brandon Marshall. Ginn being a returner has ZERO affect on his ability to be used as a deep threat (See Deshaen Jackson).

The QB has a HUGE influence in finding the receivers open deep. Take a look at Brandon Marshall's number of 20+ yard catches with a crappier QB in MIA. He went from having 11, 16, and 13 catches of 20+ yards in DEN to 9 last year in MIA.

Between Vernon, Morgan (deceptively fast and it has been quoted in an article), and Ginn...we HAVE the deep threats. We just don't have a QB who can throw a late deep ball and get there with major zip without having to stop, set, have the space to step and then make the throw. THAT makes a huge difference.

If you look at his stats Smith is throwing the ball downfield when he has the time. He might be hesitant, but you really cannot blame the guy for not trusting his line. He threw a great 45 yard pass to Gore on the run with dead on accuracy and plenty of zip on it on that bad snap. I think once this team held the naysayers and guys that have chosen to ignore what Harbaugh said about the offense being a work in progress will be surprised.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Memphis9er:
This team in general is hurt by line play. Teams are blitzing us and just stopping the run on the way to the qb, we don't throw enough screens or quick passes to keep them honest, which is messed up because Smith has been one of the top qbs throwing against the blitz this year. The offense is not working in general because the line is blocking poorly, which leads to the skill players not having the time to get open to make plays. You can't really blame it on the passing game when it is the only part of the offense working. You have to look no further than the offensive line to see why the offense as a whole is struggling. Bottom line everyone is responsible from the coaches to the playcallers to the players. I expect the offense to get better as the line does.

I sort of disagree here. Teams are not just blitzing on us, they are bringing more guys than we can block. It is on the QB/WR/TE to be able to execute the quick-hit one-step throws. We are not doing this because Harbaugh doesn't call it or the QB/WR/TE cannot execute it.

Biggest problem with one-step drops has been the inability of the center to hold his ground. Even against Cincy Goodwin was being immediately pushed back as soon as he snapped the ball. That did get a little better in the second half but most of that was on three-step drops. Again, it's the OL.

It's a combo of both. Smith doesn't use his natural ability to throw a needed jump pass and the OL doesn't give him much room to step and throw. I have yet to see Alex throw an accurate short pass without room to step. In the CIN game, his short hoppers were when he didn't have room to step. He just doesn't have the arm to make that type of throw.

The two short passes I remember against Cincy in which he skipped the ball were both on scrambles where he was throwing off balance. That is a tough throw to make but not because of lack of arm strength. It is just hard to be moving forward quickly and keep the ball up. To me, that suggests more practice. It was something he did at Utah with good success.

Originally posted by Memphis9er:

Originally posted by Joecool:
So true. We also don't know how many open deep passes the QB has overlooked and it appears he's overlooked quite a few. Morgan ran a 4.41 forty. Brandon Lloyd HAS proven to be a deep threat without Brandon Marshall. Ginn being a returner has ZERO affect on his ability to be used as a deep threat (See Deshaen Jackson).

The QB has a HUGE influence in finding the receivers open deep. Take a look at Brandon Marshall's number of 20+ yard catches with a crappier QB in MIA. He went from having 11, 16, and 13 catches of 20+ yards in DEN to 9 last year in MIA.

Between Vernon, Morgan (deceptively fast and it has been quoted in an article), and Ginn...we HAVE the deep threats. We just don't have a QB who can throw a late deep ball and get there with major zip without having to stop, set, have the space to step and then make the throw. THAT makes a huge difference.

If you look at his stats Smith is throwing the ball downfield when he has the time. He might be hesitant, but you really cannot blame the guy for not trusting his line. He threw a great 45 yard pass to Gore on the run with dead on accuracy and plenty of zip on it on that bad snap. I think once this team held the naysayers and guys that have chosen to ignore what Harbaugh said about the offense being a work in progress will be surprised.

I agree with you. OL needs to show up and coaches need to set up the deep balls. Hope Smith has a great game and the coaches allow it. PHI splits the Ends out wide and they crash in a lot. Hoping to see quite a few bootlegs, sprint-stops by Alex, and quick pitches outside to the RB.

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Memphis9er:
This team in general is hurt by line play. Teams are blitzing us and just stopping the run on the way to the qb, we don't throw enough screens or quick passes to keep them honest, which is messed up because Smith has been one of the top qbs throwing against the blitz this year. The offense is not working in general because the line is blocking poorly, which leads to the skill players not having the time to get open to make plays. You can't really blame it on the passing game when it is the only part of the offense working. You have to look no further than the offensive line to see why the offense as a whole is struggling. Bottom line everyone is responsible from the coaches to the playcallers to the players. I expect the offense to get better as the line does.

I sort of disagree here. Teams are not just blitzing on us, they are bringing more guys than we can block. It is on the QB/WR/TE to be able to execute the quick-hit one-step throws. We are not doing this because Harbaugh doesn't call it or the QB/WR/TE cannot execute it.

Biggest problem with one-step drops has been the inability of the center to hold his ground. Even against Cincy Goodwin was being immediately pushed back as soon as he snapped the ball. That did get a little better in the second half but most of that was on three-step drops. Again, it's the OL.

It's a combo of both. Smith doesn't use his natural ability to throw a needed jump pass and the OL doesn't give him much room to step and throw. I have yet to see Alex throw an accurate short pass without room to step. In the CIN game, his short hoppers were when he didn't have room to step. He just doesn't have the arm to make that type of throw.

The two short passes I remember against Cincy in which he skipped the ball were both on scrambles where he was throwing off balance. That is a tough throw to make but not because of lack of arm strength. It is just hard to be moving forward quickly and keep the ball up. To me, that suggests more practice. It was something he did at Utah with good success.

Harbaugh did have the QB practice off balance throws. He didn't make those throws in Utah. His feet were right on most throws and the receivers were a yard or 2 open in Utah. I have yet to see him make an accurate quick off balance throw in the NFL. He's not a chest thrower, which would help more in making those throws. Practice will help but sometimes, you got it or you don't and with how our OL has blocked the past 7 years, you would think we would have seen some creative throws by Alex to this point.

Originally posted by ApatheticIAm:
49ers running game hurt by poor passing attack


http://www.sacbee.com/2011/09/30/3949833/matthew-barrows-49ers-running.html#mi_rss=49ers

The title says it all. Backwards in my opinion

If teams are stacking 8 in the box, then you have to exploit those man to man situations and make them honest. The problem here is, other teams don't respect Alex's ability to exploit man to man.

Exploit the man coverage, fix the running game. Da end.

Originally posted by Joecool:
Harbaugh did have the QB practice off balance throws. He didn't make those throws in Utah. His feet were right on most throws and the receivers were a yard or 2 open in Utah. I have yet to see him make an accurate quick off balance throw in the NFL. He's not a chest thrower, which would help more in making those throws. Practice will help but sometimes, you got it or you don't and with how our OL has blocked the past 7 years, you would think we would have seen some creative throws by Alex to this point.

he threw an accurate quick offbalance throw to the endzone to gore against the cowboys