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One fan's observation

This guy should get instant vet status. Wow. This is what NT should be.

Nice job sir.
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by OptimusPrime52:
Originally posted by Loco49er:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by OptimusPrime52:
Originally posted by dj43:
The one very obvious observation that should be clear about this TC, and is brought out in this thread, is that we actually have a HC now that has a clear idea of what an offense should look like and how to develop it. The influence of Bill Walsh is clear in both the way the TC is being run as well as the style of plays being installed.

As a result, my prediction is that we will see better play from just about everybody on offense than we have seen in the past.

a carpenter can have all the tools in the world, but if he doesnt know how to use them he cant build a house.

basicall every coach we have had since mooch.
Good analogy.

A good example of how messed up things have become, at the present time any kind of a check down by the QB is looked at as being a bad thing. However, Bill Walsh used check downs brilliantly to set up other passing plays for open up the running game. The last 8 years have seen checkdowns on the outside of the field where they have much lesser chance for success.

Good point about the check downs. In the fan training camp video I noticed that Smith checked down twice to Gore. The big difference this year is that Gore was past the line of scrimage in the middle of the field and was able to get possitive yardage.

a lot of these so called checked downs are not check downs at all. they are designed plays to run off the coverage and open things up underneath for gore/hunter. the qb goes through the drop and scans the field as if looking for an open reciever. this is all just deception, the ball is going to gore on the "checkdown" the whole time.
Walsh used checkdowns when LBs were dropping deep for short gains and/or to pull them forward to open up the slant lanes for the WRs for even bigger gains.

He also used checkdowns to slow down the pass rush as well as give the OL a chance to cut DL which took away some of their aggressiveness.

Checkdowns are an easy throw for the QB, especially when he is getting a lot of pressure.

Walsh only ran them outside infrequently.

Checkdowns are a very useful part of any offense but Walsh made them an art form. Harbaugh sounds like he has incorporated a good bit of that into the offense.

I agree...I think Steve Young said once that even if a play was designed for 10-12 yards, but the coverage didn't allow for that, a checkdown that gave the offense 3-4 yards was useful because:

a) the offense was still moving the ball
b) it sent a message to the opposition's defense that no matter what they tried, the offense was still going to march down the field.

In a weird way, I guess the WCO checkdowns sapped the other team's morale since they could be difficult to stop.
Originally posted by HailJerry:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by OptimusPrime52:
Originally posted by Loco49er:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by OptimusPrime52:
Originally posted by dj43:
The one very obvious observation that should be clear about this TC, and is brought out in this thread, is that we actually have a HC now that has a clear idea of what an offense should look like and how to develop it. The influence of Bill Walsh is clear in both the way the TC is being run as well as the style of plays being installed.

As a result, my prediction is that we will see better play from just about everybody on offense than we have seen in the past.

a carpenter can have all the tools in the world, but if he doesnt know how to use them he cant build a house.

basicall every coach we have had since mooch.
Good analogy.

A good example of how messed up things have become, at the present time any kind of a check down by the QB is looked at as being a bad thing. However, Bill Walsh used check downs brilliantly to set up other passing plays for open up the running game. The last 8 years have seen checkdowns on the outside of the field where they have much lesser chance for success.

Good point about the check downs. In the fan training camp video I noticed that Smith checked down twice to Gore. The big difference this year is that Gore was past the line of scrimage in the middle of the field and was able to get possitive yardage.

a lot of these so called checked downs are not check downs at all. they are designed plays to run off the coverage and open things up underneath for gore/hunter. the qb goes through the drop and scans the field as if looking for an open reciever. this is all just deception, the ball is going to gore on the "checkdown" the whole time.
Walsh used checkdowns when LBs were dropping deep for short gains and/or to pull them forward to open up the slant lanes for the WRs for even bigger gains.

He also used checkdowns to slow down the pass rush as well as give the OL a chance to cut DL which took away some of their aggressiveness.

Checkdowns are an easy throw for the QB, especially when he is getting a lot of pressure.

Walsh only ran them outside infrequently.

Checkdowns are a very useful part of any offense but Walsh made them an art form. Harbaugh sounds like he has incorporated a good bit of that into the offense.

I agree...I think Steve Young said once that even if a play was designed for 10-12 yards, but the coverage didn't allow for that, a checkdown that gave the offense 3-4 yards was useful because:

a) the offense was still moving the ball
b) it sent a message to the opposition's defense that no matter what they tried, the offense was still going to march down the field.

In a weird way, I guess the WCO checkdowns sapped the other team's morale since they could be difficult to stop.

Actually it made them mad, so they lead with the helmet and ended steve young's career.

And then did a dirty tackle to try to take out Jerry Rice.
I dont know understand why people hate the idea of "checking down." I'll take 8 yard check downs ALL day.
Check downs are fine, especially for keeping the opposing defense on the field and tiring them out, and keep our own offense in rhythm. They're rhythm plays more than anything. Do you want a 4yd pass moving the chains or the ball thrown away and a wasted down?

Check downs are fine, so long as they're used when all else is covered. Our problem is that the check down seems to have become our entire passing offense the last 3-4 years. You can't run the ball on first and 2nd down for 3 yards and then on 3rd and out, check down for 4 yards.
Originally posted by LambdaChi49:
I dont know understand why people hate the idea of "checking down." I'll take 8 yard check downs ALL day.

Just depends on the QB making the check-downs.
  • dj43
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 20,155
Originally posted by DrGonzo00:
Check downs are fine, especially for keeping the opposing defense on the field and tiring them out, and keep our own offense in rhythm. They're rhythm plays more than anything. Do you want a 4yd pass moving the chains or the ball thrown away and a wasted down?

Check downs are fine, so long as they're used when all else is covered. Our problem is that the check down seems to have become our entire passing offense the last 3-4 years. You can't run the ball on first and 2nd down for 3 yards and then on 3rd and out, check down for 4 yards.

A good part of the reason for that was poor WRs who ran bad routes, combined with poor play design in the first place.
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by LambdaChi49:
I dont know understand why people hate the idea of "checking down." I'll take 8 yard check downs ALL day.

Just depends on the QB making the check-downs.

As long as a checkdown averages more than 3.4 yards, then the offense is in good shape. With Gore maintaining a 4+ yard avg per carry, then we are statistically unstopable... too bad reality doesnt match statistics.
Originally posted by DrGonzo00:
Check downs are fine, especially for keeping the opposing defense on the field and tiring them out, and keep our own offense in rhythm. They're rhythm plays more than anything. Do you want a 4yd pass moving the chains or the ball thrown away and a wasted down?

Check downs are fine, so long as they're used when all else is covered. Our problem is that the check down seems to have become our entire passing offense the last 3-4 years. You can't run the ball on first and 2nd down for 3 yards and then on 3rd and out, check down for 4 yards.

When the offense is at 3rd and long, it becomes predictable. Defense will protect those 8-9 yards out and give up what's underneath all day. That's the life of our offense when they can't get into 3rd and 5 or less. Like most offense in the NFL, we are not good enough to take what we want on 3rd downs. We are predetermined and limited to the success we may have on 1st and 2nd.
[ Edited by qnnhan7 on Aug 8, 2011 at 11:04 AM ]
Originally posted by LambdaChi49:
I dont know understand why people hate the idea of "checking down." I'll take 8 yard check downs ALL day.

Unless it is 3rd down and you need 10 yards or more for a first down.

The perception or reality is that Alex Smith checked down like this way too often.

And a lot of his passes were not ones that hit receivers in stride or they could catch easily in order to make a football move and gain the additional yardage for the 1st down.

(Or depending on your point of view - blame it all on the receivers - lol.)
Originally posted by Bluefalcon61:
Originally posted by LambdaChi49:
I dont know understand why people hate the idea of "checking down." I'll take 8 yard check downs ALL day.

Unless it is 3rd down and you need 10 yards or more for a first down.

The perception or reality is that Alex Smith checked down like this way too often.

And a lot of his passes were not ones that hit receivers in stride or they could catch easily in order to make a football move and gain the additional yardage for the 1st down.

(Or depending on your point of view - blame it all on the receivers - lol.)

Or question the playcalling and play design, WR, OLine, etc. We will see this year how effective Smith is with an advanced O concept and better supporting cast (Edwards being the key). Still can't believe the receivers had the choice of running one route no matter where the defenders were lined up.

As far as checking down is concerned, many good coaches do not mind a five yard pass when it's third and long as it still gains field position. Of course, they don't want it every time but it beats a sack and third and forever!

Hope Smith does well as that would mean the playoffs!
Originally posted by Bluefalcon61:
Originally posted by LambdaChi49:
I dont know understand why people hate the idea of "checking down." I'll take 8 yard check downs ALL day.

Unless it is 3rd down and you need 10 yards or more for a first down.

The perception or reality is that Alex Smith checked down like this way too often.

And a lot of his passes were not ones that hit receivers in stride or they could catch easily in order to make a football move and gain the additional yardage for the 1st down.

(Or depending on your point of view - blame it all on the receivers - lol.)

Also, teams give you those check-downs because they're thinking eventually you'll make a mistake. We kicked way to many field goals this way. Smith was to hesitant to throw the receivers open. I want the Smith at the end of the Eagles game zinging it into receivers.
Great post. Great thread. Looking for future contributions from the "noob"
Originally posted by LambdaChi49:
I dont know understand why people hate the idea of "checking down." I'll take 8 yard check downs ALL day.

What we saw were ineffectual check-downs that did not move the ball, mostly because the defense was all up close. In a real offense, with guys down the field and a QB with the means to throw the ball there, then the check-down is a great play that keeps the defense honest and creates yardage.

The check-downs last year were desperate, timid things that were just another run up the middle, really.
Originally posted by carlgo:
Originally posted by LambdaChi49:
I dont know understand why people hate the idea of "checking down." I'll take 8 yard check downs ALL day.

What we saw were ineffectual check-downs that did not move the ball, mostly because the defense was all up close. In a real offense, with guys down the field and a QB with the means to throw the ball there, then the check-down is a great play that keeps the defense honest and creates yardage.

The check-downs last year were desperate, timid things that were just another run up the middle, really.

Good point! Check downs don't work when playing smash mouth run at all cost football! Need to at least have some possibility of a mid to long throw to loosen the D.