Steve Young on flagship 49ers

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by 49erRider:

Originally posted by Jersey9er:

Originally posted by Wodwo:
Nice find.

You need a complete team to compete.

Oh, what could have been....

How many more Super Bowls do we win if we keep Watters?

How many more Super Bowls do we win if we keep Haley?

How many more Super Bowls do we win if we keep Deion Sanders?

Even just one of those guys. How many more?

Big W wassup brotha, you said the truth there. But then I ask, then why all the hate (not just for one player), but those that say we dont need a full quality team to be able to compete. Not you, just a lot of our fans. They say we just need a hot QB, and that thats all we need to take us over the top.

I know thats not the case, but maybe they'll finally end that silly talk, being that even Steve Young said you need good/great players on each side of the ball to really compete.

What are you talking about? We have plenty of talent outside of QB. The only thing this team lacks is a significant pass rush, a decent cover corner and a damn QB to be in contention for a championship (I didn't bother to mention good coaching because they have already addressed that weakness). A good QB would help us WIN right NOW even without filling the other two needs, as is evidenced by the close games we've lost the past couple years because our QB couldn't complete the comeback or put up enough points to put the other team out of reach. Having a game manager for a QB usually means he lacks that killer instinct, which has been the case with Alex Smith and was the case with Shaun Hill.

Also, there are always exceptions to every rule. The 2006 Colts were NOT a complete team. Peyton Manning carried them on his back the whole season and the defense finally starting doing it's job in the postseason, but they were far from complete. People act like that defense was playing great football that postseason, but the truth is they only played great compared to what they were playing like before.

The 2000 Ravens were not a complete team, either, but they were an anomaly. There are plenty of other teams that weren't "complete" that won the Super Bowl. The Green Bay Packers weren't complete this year because they had no running game. What they did have was a good defense and a great QB.

I don't think you're understanding why people want a franchise QB before trying to address anything else. Name one franchise that won MORE THAN ONE championship without a top-level QB. Exactly. Look around at the dynasties. Niners had Montana and Young, Patriots have Brady, Cowboys had Aikman, Steelers have Roethlisberger and had Bradshaw (whom I don't think was a top ALL TIME QB, but was one of the best while he played). People want to get that QB before bothering with anything else because QB is the most important position. Period.

Yeah but it is going to be close to impossible to get a Montana/Young or Aikman or Ben Ruthlessraper. You can't force this and reach on a guy hoping he can be good. If you're going to develop a guy you might as well develop a 2nd or 3rd pick. If you try to force it and you pick the wrong guy, not only do you wind up with a guy like Alex Smith or Vince Young but you could wind up missing out on a great pass rusher or cornerback like a Patrick Peterson.

I agree with you, I'm just explaining why people complain about the QB situation more than the lack of pass rush or cover corners. Our QB has been as big of a problem - probably bigger - as the lack of pass rush or cover corners have been. It's usually people defending Alex Smith that want to point elsewhere and ignore the QB problem. Like him or not, it's clear he isn't the answer and that's why people want the problem solved. However, I do agree that you cannot force it. Just explaining why people want that QB.

And LOL @ "Ruthlessraper."

Two players that can make the rest of the players on the field much better. A great QB and a pass rushing specialist, the current 49ers have neither.

Originally posted by JeffKaplan:
I love Steve Young, but it's a little unfair to say that letting Haley and Watters go were "mistakes." Haley was completely unmanageable, a dozen T.O.'s in one; we simply couldn't keep him, and the loony bin in Dallas was one of the few places we could dump him. (Maybe we'd have looked again for somewhere else if we'd anticipated the monstrosity that Jimmy Johnson was rapidly building, but that's asking a bit much.)

As for Watters, we actually wanted to keep him, but Watters was selfish and demanded a contract that would pay him more than Rice. We wouldn't give him that contract, not just out of loyalty to Rice but also because the salary cap was already starting to crunch us after the spending spree in '94. So Watters got that contract from the Eagles. We simply couldn't match it.

No doubt, these were supremely talented players, and losing 'em indeed might've cost us a title or two. But it wasn't that we were blinded by arrogance. Really, we didn't have much of a choice.

I would have to say this is the biggest reason Young was not able to get one more. We simply did not manage the salary cap correctly. It was not an issue when Montana was playing, but we spent all that money in 94 to beat the cowboys and it really hurt us for 95-98.

Montana was the better QB but I have always had so much respect for Young because of the 94 season. We went out and bought all that talent and all the pressure was on Young to win the Super Bowl. He delivered but found out real fast how hard it is to get a second one when the team around is leaving via free agency.

Originally posted by 49erRider:

Originally posted by Gavintech:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by mustangmele:
Letting Watters and Haley go reminds me of when the niners parted ways with T.O. and Jeff Garcia. Yeah, T.O. needed to go, but getting rid of Garcia was premature.

Garcia has admitted that choice was his, and it was a mistake.

The choice was his because the 9er's were over the cap and had to shed all kinds of salary. He didn't want to play for the league minimum. It's the NFL, not the NBA, there's no soft cap that lets you go over the cap to sign your own players. Garcia, T.O., J. Peterson, A. Carter, hell even the likes of Lance Schulters; they couldn't have kept any of them because of millions in dead money and a couple guys that were getting overpaid at the time (Fred Beasley comes to mind)...

They couldn't keep them all, obviously, but they could have kept their franchise QB of all people. They just didn't bother to make any effort. That's the truth.

How do you resign a free agent starting NFL QB when you are already over the cap? The Browns gave him 4 years at $25 million. A rich contract back then, even for a top QB.

When you are OVER the salary cap you have to shed salary, not add it and since Garcia was making backup $$$ with the 9ers up until that point, signing him for anything CLOSE to what the Browns paid him would have been like signing another high priced free agent, not resigning one of your own.

The truth is their hands were tied.

[ Edited by Gavintech on Feb 12, 2011 at 17:25:54 ]

Originally posted by Gavintech:

Originally posted by 49erRider:

Originally posted by Gavintech:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by mustangmele:
Letting Watters and Haley go reminds me of when the niners parted ways with T.O. and Jeff Garcia. Yeah, T.O. needed to go, but getting rid of Garcia was premature.

Garcia has admitted that choice was his, and it was a mistake.

The choice was his because the 9er's were over the cap and had to shed all kinds of salary. He didn't want to play for the league minimum. It's the NFL, not the NBA, there's no soft cap that lets you go over the cap to sign your own players. Garcia, T.O., J. Peterson, A. Carter, hell even the likes of Lance Schulters; they couldn't have kept any of them because of millions in dead money and a couple guys that were getting overpaid at the time (Fred Beasley comes to mind)...

They couldn't keep them all, obviously, but they could have kept their franchise QB of all people. They just didn't bother to make any effort. That's the truth.

How do you resign a free agent starting NFL QB when you are already over the cap? The Browns gave him 4 years at $25 million. A rich contract back then, even for a top QB.

When you are OVER the salary cap you have to shed salary, not add it and since Garcia was making backup $$$ with the 9ers up until that point, signing him for anything CLOSE to what the Browns paid him would have been like signing another high priced free agent, not resigning one of your own.

The truth is their hands were tied.

Not exactly, they could have down graded less important positions, then tried to replenish them through the draft. The QB is the most important position on the field unless you have a top 5 defense and an awesome running game.

Originally posted by Young2Rice:
We probably could have won a few more if we gave Montana his throne back.

I recall Montana being able to win the big game with no recognizable RB or defense.

Steve Young should also consider that he choked big time in the playoffs, throwing a poor performance after the next.

I hope that your were just joking? Montana was not Montana in the early to mid 90's and Steve Young had a lot of obstacles to get through mainly 49er fans expecting him to be Joe Montana.......Im guessing you were one of the many 49er fans that booed him judging by your comments.

Originally posted by Young2Rice:
We probably could have won a few more if we gave Montana his throne back.

I recall Montana being able to win the big game with no recognizable RB or defense.

Steve Young should also consider that he choked big time in the playoffs, throwing a poor performance after the next.

During the years the 49ers made the play-offs under Montana our defense averaged to rank 3rd in points allowed. The 80's 49ers had a great defense, it was over shadowed by the offense.

Originally posted by BobS:

Originally posted by Gavintech:

Originally posted by 49erRider:

Originally posted by Gavintech:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by mustangmele:
Letting Watters and Haley go reminds me of when the niners parted ways with T.O. and Jeff Garcia. Yeah, T.O. needed to go, but getting rid of Garcia was premature.

Garcia has admitted that choice was his, and it was a mistake.

The choice was his because the 9er's were over the cap and had to shed all kinds of salary. He didn't want to play for the league minimum. It's the NFL, not the NBA, there's no soft cap that lets you go over the cap to sign your own players. Garcia, T.O., J. Peterson, A. Carter, hell even the likes of Lance Schulters; they couldn't have kept any of them because of millions in dead money and a couple guys that were getting overpaid at the time (Fred Beasley comes to mind)...

They couldn't keep them all, obviously, but they could have kept their franchise QB of all people. They just didn't bother to make any effort. That's the truth.

How do you resign a free agent starting NFL QB when you are already over the cap? The Browns gave him 4 years at $25 million. A rich contract back then, even for a top QB.

When you are OVER the salary cap you have to shed salary, not add it and since Garcia was making backup $$$ with the 9ers up until that point, signing him for anything CLOSE to what the Browns paid him would have been like signing another high priced free agent, not resigning one of your own.

The truth is their hands were tied.

Not exactly, they could have down graded less important positions, then tried to replenish them through the draft. The QB is the most important position on the field unless you have a top 5 defense and an awesome running game.

They already downgraded highly paid players at "less important" positions. There wasn't much more they could have done. The term "salary-cap hell" didn't come out of nowhere.

You still have to field a team! You can't sign a guy to (what the Browns paid him) the 3rd highest paid QB in the entire NFL when you are already WAY over the cap just by "downgrading" a few less important positions. Even if he would have taken less to stay in SF they still wouldn't have been able to do it. They'd have had to pay him maybe 25% of what Cleavland did and that still would have been a b***h to get that contract under the cap.

This has nothing to do with the ability of the team to resign him but lets not forget Garcia was injured (back) in 2003 and he played like hot garbage in Cleavland and in Detroit, who had better rosters than we did in 04/05. If if wasn't for that run filling in for McNabb in the playoffs a few year's later no one would have thought twice about Garcia. And if you really think honestly about it don't you remember just how gaddamn frustrating it was watching his happy feet and throwing at the ground a yard in front of his receiver over and over again?