Steve Young on flagship 49ers

Originally posted by Young2Rice:
We probably could have won a few more if we gave Montana his throne back.

I recall Montana being able to win the big game with no recognizable RB or defense.

Steve Young should also consider that he choked big time in the playoffs, throwing a poor performance after the next.

Once...and barely. He also had the #1 defense in the nfl at the time I think.

Originally posted by Wodwo:
Nice find.

You need a complete team to compete.

Oh, what could have been....

How many more Super Bowls do we win if we keep Watters?

How many more Super Bowls do we win if we keep Haley?

How many more Super Bowls do we win if we keep Deion Sanders?

Even just one of those guys. How many more?

Big W wassup brotha, you said the truth there. But then I ask, then why all the hate (not just for one player), but those that say we dont need a full quality team to be able to compete. Not you, just a lot of our fans. They say we just need a hot QB, and that thats all we need to take us over the top.

I know thats not the case, but maybe they'll finally end that silly talk, being that even Steve Young said you need good/great players on each side of the ball to really compete.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Montana never had this problem. They down graded certain positions while he was there and they still won.

Um, huge fan of Montana that I am, I can't think of any significant examples of such downgrades, certainly not on the O. Perhaps you would care to be more specific?

Montana never had any top level RB in 1979.
Roger Craig only had 2 1000 yard seasons and was a downgrade from Tyler.
Young had Hearst for 2 1000 yard seasons averaging far more per carry than Craig.
Fred Dean only had 1 good year for the 49ers.

Steve Young had Jerry Rice in his prime and didn't only have Watters for one year.

49ers didn't win in 79.

Craig a downgrade on Tyler? Not.

Why did you bring Young into this? This was a straight question not one of futile Montana v Young arguments. You made a comment about Young. I asked for you to be specific. What happened to Young is irrelevant.

And Frad Dean played on the D.

So no downgrades. Thought not.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Montana never had this problem. They down graded certain positions while he was there and they still won.

Um, huge fan of Montana that I am, I can't think of any significant examples of such downgrades, certainly not on the O. Perhaps you would care to be more specific?

Montana never had any top level RB in 1979.
Roger Craig only had 2 1000 yard seasons and was a downgrade from Tyler.
Young had Hearst for 2 1000 yard seasons averaging far more per carry than Craig.
Fred Dean only had 1 good year for the 49ers.

Steve Young had Jerry Rice in his prime and didn't only have Watters for one year.

I'm sorry, but thats total bunk.

The talent around Montana IMPROVED through his career. Craig was NOT a downgrade from Tyler. The Niners added both Jerry Rice and John Taylor while Montana was playing. The D lost Fred Dean, but added Charles Haley.

I'm not trying to say Steve was better than Joe, but Steve lost Haley, Lott, Rathman, Taylor, Watters, Sanders, and a number of other during his time in SF.

I still think Montana is the greatest of all time, but to say that he did it while the talent around him dropped is entirely incorrect. The '84 and '89 teams are some of the most talented teams in NFL history.

People forget we had some really poor defences in the 90s and more importantly the WCO was beginning to find more adept strategists in the DC helms.

That being said Steve threw picks. I'm a Steve Young guy in as much some are Joe Montana. I remember Joe but I grew up with Steve. So I support him.

Oh,by the way, which year was the only year Fred Dean had his only good one? 81 (probowler, 12 sacks in 11 games)? 82 (pro bowler) 83 (17.5 sacks) or 84 (pro bowler)?

Originally posted by Young2Rice:
We probably could have won a few more if we gave Montana his throne back.

I recall Montana being able to win the big game with no recognizable RB or defense.

Steve Young should also consider that he choked big time in the playoffs, throwing a poor performance after the next.

Last I checked bro, Joe had f**kin Fred Dean and Ronnie Lott on his defense. JUST SAYING.

Originally posted by Young2Rice:
We probably could have won a few more if we gave Montana his throne back.

I recall Montana being able to win the big game with no recognizable RB or defense.

Steve Young should also consider that he choked big time in the playoffs, throwing a poor performance after the next.

I will credit him with the 1981 Super Bowl in that context, we had running back by committee and an 8th ranked defense, his other rings came with defenses ranked 3rd or higher and a guy named Roger Craig. No Jerry Rice in 1984, but we had a dual threat backfield with Tyler and Craig. You people who think Joe carried a bad team way further than it should have need to spend some time looking up stats. After the Super Bowl win in 1994 Young had 2 years of Kirby & Loville before Hearst came along. As I put forth in another post Joe's play-off runs came with defenses ranked an average of 3rd, while Steve's defenses averaged 7th ranking.

Originally posted by BobS:

Originally posted by Young2Rice:
We probably could have won a few more if we gave Montana his throne back.

I recall Montana being able to win the big game with no recognizable RB or defense.

Steve Young should also consider that he choked big time in the playoffs, throwing a poor performance after the next.

I will credit him with the 1981 Super Bowl in that context, we had running back by committee and an 8th ranked defense, his other rings came with defenses ranked 3rd or higher and a guy named Roger Craig. No Jerry Rice in 1984, but we had a dual threat backfield with Tyler and Craig. You people who think Joe carried a bad team way further than it should have need to spend some time looking up stats. After the Super Bowl win in 1994 Young had 2 years of Kirby & Loville before Hearst came along. As I put forth in another post Joe's play-off runs came with defenses ranked an average of 3rd, while Steve's defenses averaged 7th ranking.

81 Defense ranked #2

Originally posted by SonocoNinerFan:
The only year Montana won with sub-par talent surrounding him was 1981 when the league was still playing catch-up with what Walsh was doing on offense. The 1984 team had skill position upgrades including Wendell Tyler, Craig and Russ Francis. Then the team was fading a little before the fabulous 1986 draft came along and fueled the back-to-back run after those rookies developed into maybe the greatest single draft class ever to go along with Rice (1985 Draft) and our other HOF'ers.

Then we started to get too cute for our own good as Young suggested when we ultimately had to travel the mercenary route to get over the hump in 1994.

Originally posted by Jersey9er:

Originally posted by Wodwo:
Nice find.

You need a complete team to compete.

Oh, what could have been....

How many more Super Bowls do we win if we keep Watters?

How many more Super Bowls do we win if we keep Haley?

How many more Super Bowls do we win if we keep Deion Sanders?

Even just one of those guys. How many more?

Big W wassup brotha, you said the truth there. But then I ask, then why all the hate (not just for one player), but those that say we dont need a full quality team to be able to compete. Not you, just a lot of our fans. They say we just need a hot QB, and that thats all we need to take us over the top. I know thats not the case, but maybe they'll finally end that silly talk, being that even Steve Young said you need good/great players on each side of the ball to really compete.

Yeah because the stable of HOT QBs we had here since 2002 isn't the reason we haven't been to the playoffs let alone the Superbowl!

Originally posted by Jakemall:

Originally posted by BobS:

Originally posted by Young2Rice:
We probably could have won a few more if we gave Montana his throne back.

I recall Montana being able to win the big game with no recognizable RB or defense.

Steve Young should also consider that he choked big time in the playoffs, throwing a poor performance after the next.

I will credit him with the 1981 Super Bowl in that context, we had running back by committee and an 8th ranked defense, his other rings came with defenses ranked 3rd or higher and a guy named Roger Craig. No Jerry Rice in 1984, but we had a dual threat backfield with Tyler and Craig. You people who think Joe carried a bad team way further than it should have need to spend some time looking up stats. After the Super Bowl win in 1994 Young had 2 years of Kirby & Loville before Hearst came along. As I put forth in another post Joe's play-off runs came with defenses ranked an average of 3rd, while Steve's defenses averaged 7th ranking.

81 Defense ranked #2

The 88 team was ranked 8th, I need to stop relying on memory, oops!

Montana had Walsh calling plays, Young had...who? Both QBs were shaped by Walsh but Montana gained the most because his first ten years were with Walsh. Young went through heck in his early career and was lucky to still be playing after his experience in Tampa Bay.

But, the argument that one had better team mates than the other is silly. Both had really good players and fill ins. The play calling was the final factor in how the guys played. Walsh was a master at covering weak players or using their strenths. Remember the undersized linemen who were quick? They moved around and made the most of their abilities. Walsh played Roger Craig at fullback, halfback and as a receiver. If memory serves me, Craig was offensive player of the year when he had over 1,500 yards rushing and 500+ receiving in 1988. Not bad for a step down from Tyler!

I think everyone on this thread is in agreement that Montana is better than Young.

However, that idea that the team downgraded during Montana's years is ridiculous.

I like another poster am curious to know what was this ONE good season that Fred Dean had.

Also, Roger Craig has been a HOF semi-finalist and finalist for the last few years. When was Wendell Tyler even in the running, but Craig is a downgrade. Really?

Montana had Dwight Clark and Freddie Solomon as his receivers in the early days and John Taylor and Jerry Rice later on his career. Definitely sounds like an upgrade to me. At TE, he started with Charle Young and finished with Brent Jones. Upgrade. And on defense? Those defenses were tough and if it weren't for a revolutionary offense, they would've gotten a lot more credit during the 80s.

But on Steve's original point, I agree with him about the 49ers getting too cute. Especially with Ricky Watters. I said that in another post, the loss of Ricky Watters affected the 1995 team more much more than the loss of Deion. It was one of the rare cases where a RB wasn't so easily replaceable. Hopefully, we don't make the same mistake again with free agents in the future.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Montana never had this problem. They down graded certain positions while he was there and they still won.

Um, huge fan of Montana that I am, I can't think of any significant examples of such downgrades, certainly not on the O. Perhaps you would care to be more specific?

Montana never had any top level RB in 1979.
Roger Craig only had 2 1000 yard seasons and was a downgrade from Tyler.
Young had Hearst for 2 1000 yard seasons averaging far more per carry than Craig.
Fred Dean only had 1 good year for the 49ers.

Steve Young had Jerry Rice in his prime and didn't only have Watters for one year.

Let me follow you here...

Originally posted by Joecool:
Montana never had any top level RB in 1979.

The 49ers were 2-14 in 1979. What's your point?

Originally posted by Joecool:
Roger Craig only had 2 1000 yard seasons and was a downgrade from Tyler.

Craig was a downgrade from Tyler? Craig only had 2 1,000 yard seasons? Are you kidding? Tyler was great but Craig was just as good, if not better, and was much more of a special/versatile player on top of being a top traditional runner and it's not even close. Also, Craig had 3 1,000 yard seasons, not two, and generally had more overall yards from scrimmage (over 2,000 twice in his career).

Originally posted by Joecool:
Young had Hearst for 2 1000 yard seasons averaging far more per carry than

Again, Craig had THREE 1,000 yard rushing seasons. I'll give you that Hearst was a little better than Craig however in one of those 1,000 yard seasons he was lost for the playoffs on the first play of the NFC divisional playoff game and one of the other two he was lost to injury (collar bone) with three games left and was not ready to come back in the playoffs. Also, lets not forget there was no Rice that year.

Originally posted by Joecool:
Fred Dean only had 1 good year for the 49ers

And the 49ers won the Super Bowl that year!

WTF?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Lets live in reality here and stop...

- throwing out ideas that mean nothing (i.e. the 49ers RB in 1979 when the went 2-14),
- making up stats (Craig was worse than Tyler and only rushed for 1,000 yards twice),
- and misleading stats (talking about Hearst's 1,000 yard seasons, two of which he was injured at the end of the regular season or the playoffs and had no positive impact on the the 49ers or Steve Young's performance, but was a negative impact instead.

[ Edited by Gavintech on Feb 8, 2011 at 16:58:57 ]