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Out of these QB's, who would you start and why?

Out of these QB's, who would you start and why?

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:


its pretty easy for him to forget everything he has learned a new system practically every year

and about developing him he hasnt had the chance to be developed only person who did was norv turner and mike johnson in 2006 norv turner did very good with alex smith and alex played ok considering our team
under mike johnson this year he had a rating of i believe 93 when he was OC

other than that his teachers were nolan, raye hostler and sing
all whom are less than desirable coaches to develop a project qb

Are you at the practices? Do you think Alex was handed a football and told to go google practice drills? C'mon... Whether you disagree or not with the way he was developed, best believe Alex has been developed every year he has been here.

It seems that Alex fans need everything to be perfect in order for him to succeed. Unfortunately, football doesn't work that way. Jamarcus had awful coaching, a circus of a team, pathetic receivers and crappy people developing him. Despite all of that, he sucked...and the Raiders cut him.

This isn't a charity... I don't care if he "had it rough"...damn near every top 5 pick QB has....you'll get a mulligan for a year or 2. But 6 years? Give me a break. This franchise will go nowhere with Alex at the helm.
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
Originally posted by JayBee:
The Alex Smith apologists always make me laugh.

He is extremely inaccurate. His passes are often high and receivers tend to have to adjust to his throws. It's rare that he leads receivers.

His short and intermediate passes are awful. Bubble screens, swing passes, slants, etc...all inaccurate and the receiver has to adjust. And a big reason for his inaccurate passes is his awful footwork and mechanics. It's very difficult to tell a 6 year NFL vet to forget everything he's learned up to this point and start from scratch. You can't develop someone who has already been developed. You can tweek things, but that's about it. I'd much rather Harbaugh spend all that developmental time on a rookie or a 2nd, 3rd year QB who is raw.

Alex isn't raw (like Steve was). He is a poor QB. His ceiling is game manager.

Steve was better than Alex...but lets sway he was worse than Alex in Tampa....for every Steve Young that makes it....there are 100's of Trent Dilfers, Gus Ferrote's, Heath Shulers that don't!

its pretty easy for him to forget everything he has learned a new system practically every year

and about developing him he hasnt had the chance to be developed only person who did was norv turner and mike johnson in 2006 norv turner did very good with alex smith and alex played ok considering our team
under mike johnson this year he had a rating of i believe 93 when he was OC

other than that his teachers were nolan, raye hostler and sing
all whom are less than desirable coaches to develop a project qb

Fundamentals are exactly that, fundamental. They don't change from coach to coach, they don't change from team to team, or even collage to pros. If Alex really wanted to be a winner he would have hired an offseason trainer with experience in the fundamentals.

Hostler, is not a bad QB coach, Alex has never put in the offseason work to warrant all the loyalty his fans give him.

I've never seen heard or read about Alex working with WR's in the offseason, I've never seen heard or read about Alex running hills, or working with other QB's or even with a retired coach or personal position trainer, have you?

Have you ever even read about Alex staying late with his receivers DURING the season? Alex putting in extra work to get better?

Don't make Alex a victim, he is a grown man. He has not done the extra work pro's do to elevate themselves, he does not deserve your loyalty and respect.

Is it too late, no of course not, but what is he doing RIGHT NOW to improve his game?

Were are the stories of running his, throwing a hundred passes a day, or meeting with anyone, to work on FUNDAMENTALS!

Alex fails because his fundamental mechanics suck! Alex ONLY YOU CAN FIX THIS!
WOW! I'm surprised at this post. You seem like a pretty knowledgeable guy who stays up on a lot of things about the team. Therefore it surprises me to hear you say he hasn't worked in the off-season. There have been numerous stories of his off-season work, however, he has been somewhat limited by injury and the fact he needs other players as well as a good coach to work on things.

IMO, Smith's loyalty has been good news/bad news. He has been loyal to the organization but the organization has never supplied him with a decent position coach prior to Mike Johnson.

During the pre-season this past year, I researched all the other teams to learn the background of QB coaches around the league. What I found was that something like 22 of the 32 teams had former college or pro QBs in the position! Of the remaining 10, all but two, the 49ers and one other team, had players who had played skill positions on offense.

Think about that. Only the 49ers and one other team used DEFENSIVE players to coach the QB position...and that has been the way it has been since Nolan arrived. Consequently, Smith's loyalty has been his greatest enemy. By being loyal to the team coaches instead of going out and hiring his own coach, he has certainly slowed his progress.

Everybody in the NFL works in the offseason, guy's like Jerry Rice set the bar for excellence in the offseason. Alex does not seem to go beyond the normal expected kind of offseason.

Alex has had some awful coaching, I even said before on this forum he should sue Mike Nolan for malpractice!

All of Alex's bad coaching does not excuse the fact he did not go above and beyond the minimum. He could have hired Archie Manning, Archie runs a QB camp, if Alex volunteered some time I bet he could have gotten help himself.

He could have called Peyton Manning, or just about any other pro for tips, these guys love to work out together in the offseason.

He could have hired a personnel QB coach, it's not like he was to poor to afford one.

Jumping sports here but Barry Bonds had his own hitting coach, year round!

My point is this, don't make Alex a victim, he could have fixed his mechanics, and built up his fundamentals any time he wanted to do the work needed to be great, Alex is what he is because he let himself become what he is.

Everybody made excuses, for him, and even though he shrugged them all of and manned up and put the responsibility on himself....I think deep down he believed his failure wasn't his own...until a man takes his failures as his own he can never improve... at anything at all...ever!


Oh yeah, Bono, cause he was a winner, and he studied along side Joe and Steve under Bill Walsh!

[ Edited by GolittaCamper on Feb 14, 2011 at 11:29:28 ]
Originally posted by dj43:


Peyton is a good example. When he was drafted they brought in Tom Moore to work specifically with Peyton to assure success. At the time, Moore was considered something akin to Jim Harbaugh today. Moore has remained with the team, in charge of the offense up until now when he is "offensive consultant" to Clyde Christianson. It is noteworthy that Tony Dungy, a defensive HC, kept that system in place.

THAT is how you develop a QB, not with guys like Hostler. Do the research man, the evidence if VERY clear. NO TEAM has done less to help out their QB situation than the 49ers have since Garcia left. NONE! They had no clue. That is why they have all been fired! They had the #1 overall pick in the draft and could not have done more to screw it up.

Hostler was Alex's QB coach for 2 years...then when Norv left...just so Alex could have some continuity...they hired Hostler as the OC. They did this for ALEX. He failed...Hostler wasn't good, but Alex stunk too.

Lets not even compare Peyton. It really didn't matter who his QB coach was, he was going to be elite no matter what.

It's funny how you and others act as if Alex had the worst situation ever. Tim Couch must be somewhere laughing... Trent Dilfer too. David Carr... Jason Campbell. Did you know since his 1st year in College..Jason Campbell has had a new OC every year? Where are his excuses?
Even Tebow pro-actively tweaked his throwing motion. I'm sure he's still working on his mechanics right now.

Aaron Rodgers did the same thing.

Martz told Alex what to do... Inaccuracy has a lot to do with mechanics. Did Alex listen to Martz? Nope.

I don't think Alex has that desire to be the best...He has natural ability, but is not willing ot take the next step.
Originally posted by JayBee:
Originally posted by dj43:


Peyton is a good example. When he was drafted they brought in Tom Moore to work specifically with Peyton to assure success. At the time, Moore was considered something akin to Jim Harbaugh today. Moore has remained with the team, in charge of the offense up until now when he is "offensive consultant" to Clyde Christianson. It is noteworthy that Tony Dungy, a defensive HC, kept that system in place.

THAT is how you develop a QB, not with guys like Hostler. Do the research man, the evidence if VERY clear. NO TEAM has done less to help out their QB situation than the 49ers have since Garcia left. NONE! They had no clue. That is why they have all been fired! They had the #1 overall pick in the draft and could not have done more to screw it up.

Hostler was Alex's QB coach for 2 years...then when Norv left...just so Alex could have some continuity...they hired Hostler as the OC. They did this for ALEX. He failed...Hostler wasn't good, but Alex stunk too.

Lets not even compare Peyton. It really didn't matter who his QB coach was, he was going to be elite no matter what.

It's funny how you and others act as if Alex had the worst situation ever. Tim Couch must be somewhere laughing... Trent Dilfer too. David Carr... Jason Campbell. Did you know since his 1st year in College..Jason Campbell has had a new OC every year? Where are his excuses?

ur remembering things wrong dude alex got injured in beginning of season and we were 2-1 before he got injured

hosteler sucked because hill dilfer etc couldnt do s**t with that offensive gameplan

cambell had those excuses too

peyton was elite brady is elite rodgers is elite one thing they had in common

continuity
Originally posted by JayBee:
Even Tebow pro-actively tweaked his throwing motion. I'm sure he's still working on his mechanics right now.

Aaron Rodgers did the same thing.

Martz told Alex what to do... Inaccuracy has a lot to do with mechanics. Did Alex listen to Martz? Nope.

I don't think Alex has that desire to be the best...He has natural ability, but is not willing ot take the next step.

o and btw alex never played with martz too dude just dont post ur contradicting urself and making up facts
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
Originally posted by JayBee:
Even Tebow pro-actively tweaked his throwing motion. I'm sure he's still working on his mechanics right now.

Aaron Rodgers did the same thing.

Martz told Alex what to do... Inaccuracy has a lot to do with mechanics. Did Alex listen to Martz? Nope.

I don't think Alex has that desire to be the best...He has natural ability, but is not willing ot take the next step.

o and btw alex never played with martz too dude just dont post ur contradicting urself and making up facts

i wouldnt say never, dont u remember his HOF type of preseason in 2008 as a third stringer?
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
Originally posted by JayBee:
Even Tebow pro-actively tweaked his throwing motion. I'm sure he's still working on his mechanics right now.

Aaron Rodgers did the same thing.

Martz told Alex what to do... Inaccuracy has a lot to do with mechanics. Did Alex listen to Martz? Nope.

I don't think Alex has that desire to be the best...He has natural ability, but is not willing ot take the next step.

o and btw alex never played with martz too dude just dont post ur contradicting urself and making up facts

Martz worked with Alex on his mechanics before he got injured. Alex was fine during the offseason and TC. I know a lot of the Smith fans like to act that Martz and Smith had 0 interaction. Funny how Cutler called Alex (Not JT O'Sullivan or Hill) for the intel on Martz when he was hired by the Bears. Martz had a lot more interaction with Alex than people like to admit.

[ Edited by JayBee on Feb 14, 2011 at 12:02:22 ]
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:


ur remembering things wrong dude alex got injured in beginning of season and we were 2-1 before he got injured

hosteler sucked because hill dilfer etc couldnt do s**t with that offensive gameplan

cambell had those excuses too

peyton was elite brady is elite rodgers is elite one thing they had in common

continuity

I'm remembering things wrong? Alex was poor under Hostler...so was Dilfer...Hill was better.

I dislike Hostler, but it's funny how bad a poor QB can make the OC look. JT'OSullivan made Martz look pathetic.

As far as your elite QB's comment. I thought the excuse was that Alex's putrid play was attributed to defensive coordinators. Now you're saying it's attributed to continuity. He had it with Hostler...he had it with Raye...How did that turn out? The excuses are awful.

Campbell didn't get half the amount of excuses that Alex did.
Originally posted by JayBee:
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:


ur remembering things wrong dude alex got injured in beginning of season and we were 2-1 before he got injured

hosteler sucked because hill dilfer etc couldnt do s**t with that offensive gameplan

cambell had those excuses too

peyton was elite brady is elite rodgers is elite one thing they had in common

continuity

I'm remembering things wrong? Alex was poor under Hostler...so was Dilfer...Hill was better.

I dislike Hostler, but it's funny how bad a poor QB can make the OC look. JT'OSullivan made Martz look pathetic.

As far as your elite QB's comment. I thought the excuse was that Alex's putrid play was attributed to defensive coordinators. Now you're saying it's attributed to continuity. He had it with Hostler...he had it with Raye...How did that turn out? The excuses are awful.

Campbell didn't get half the amount of excuses that Alex did.

its both if u have a defensive guy coaching u have to have stability in the OC position on a guy who can teach the qb hostler and raye have no experiace in coaching qbs at all

alex played 3 games under hostler we won 2 of them not saying he played well but to say his play was horrible or putrid is not correct after alex was injured hill took over then dilfer we went on to win on to win 3 more games so dont say that hill played well that season

i admit i thought he would do well under raye but for some reason we did not run the same spread offense we ran last year under him where alex did well
Originally posted by JayBee:
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
Originally posted by JayBee:
Even Tebow pro-actively tweaked his throwing motion. I'm sure he's still working on his mechanics right now.

Aaron Rodgers did the same thing.

Martz told Alex what to do... Inaccuracy has a lot to do with mechanics. Did Alex listen to Martz? Nope.

I don't think Alex has that desire to be the best...He has natural ability, but is not willing ot take the next step.

o and btw alex never played with martz too dude just dont post ur contradicting urself and making up facts

Martz worked with Alex on his mechanics before he got injured. Alex was fine during the offseason and TC. I know a lot of the Smith fans like to act that Martz and Smith had 0 interaction. Funny how Cutler called Alex (Not JT O'Sullivan or Hill) for the intel on Martz when he was hired by the Bears. Martz had a lot more interaction with Alex than people like to admit.

alex got injured after first 2 weeks in TC and problem was that it was a lingering injury from 2007 meaning it wasnt a new injury it was same one which means he was playing and throwing ball in TC with a dislocated shoulder
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
Originally posted by JayBee:
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:


ur remembering things wrong dude alex got injured in beginning of season and we were 2-1 before he got injured

hosteler sucked because hill dilfer etc couldnt do s**t with that offensive gameplan

cambell had those excuses too

peyton was elite brady is elite rodgers is elite one thing they had in common

continuity

I'm remembering things wrong? Alex was poor under Hostler...so was Dilfer...Hill was better.

I dislike Hostler, but it's funny how bad a poor QB can make the OC look. JT'OSullivan made Martz look pathetic.

As far as your elite QB's comment. I thought the excuse was that Alex's putrid play was attributed to defensive coordinators. Now you're saying it's attributed to continuity. He had it with Hostler...he had it with Raye...How did that turn out? The excuses are awful.

Campbell didn't get half the amount of excuses that Alex did.

its both if u have a defensive guy coaching u have to have stability in the OC position on a guy who can teach the qb hostler and raye have no experiace in coaching qbs at all

alex played 3 games under hostler we won 2 of them not saying he played well but to say his play was horrible or putrid is not correct after alex was injured hill took over then dilfer we went on to win on to win 3 more games so dont say that hill played well that season

i admit i thought he would do well under raye but for some reason we did not run the same spread offense we ran last year under him where alex did well

Stability helps...I just think it's grossly overrated here...he had the same QB coach for 2 years...then that same QB coach was promoted to HC in Alex's 3rd year. He had some stability. He then had stability in his last 2 seasons and his numbers were weak.

As for the Hostler season:

Alex 2TD 4INT 57.2 Rating 48.7%
Dilfer 7TD 12INT 55.1 Rating 51.6%
Hill 5TD 1INT 101.3 Rating 68.4%

Hill played significantly better than both Dilfer and Alex and went 2-1.

You can't rely on the spread to win games...especially when you don't have a good QB. It also makes you one dimensional. The spread worked so well last year beccause the 9ers were always down by 2+TD's and defenses played soft coverages. Notice when the games were close the spread offense looked quite ordinary? You need your QB to take snaps from under center.
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
Originally posted by JayBee:
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
Originally posted by JayBee:
Even Tebow pro-actively tweaked his throwing motion. I'm sure he's still working on his mechanics right now.

Aaron Rodgers did the same thing.

Martz told Alex what to do... Inaccuracy has a lot to do with mechanics. Did Alex listen to Martz? Nope.

I don't think Alex has that desire to be the best...He has natural ability, but is not willing ot take the next step.

o and btw alex never played with martz too dude just dont post ur contradicting urself and making up facts

Martz worked with Alex on his mechanics before he got injured. Alex was fine during the offseason and TC. I know a lot of the Smith fans like to act that Martz and Smith had 0 interaction. Funny how Cutler called Alex (Not JT O'Sullivan or Hill) for the intel on Martz when he was hired by the Bears. Martz had a lot more interaction with Alex than people like to admit.

alex got injured after first 2 weeks in TC and problem was that it was a lingering injury from 2007 meaning it wasnt a new injury it was same one which means he was playing and throwing ball in TC with a dislocated shoulder

Thing is, when Alex was healthy, he was nothing special either.
  • dj43
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 20,155
Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
Originally posted by JayBee:
The Alex Smith apologists always make me laugh.

He is extremely inaccurate. His passes are often high and receivers tend to have to adjust to his throws. It's rare that he leads receivers.

His short and intermediate passes are awful. Bubble screens, swing passes, slants, etc...all inaccurate and the receiver has to adjust. And a big reason for his inaccurate passes is his awful footwork and mechanics. It's very difficult to tell a 6 year NFL vet to forget everything he's learned up to this point and start from scratch. You can't develop someone who has already been developed. You can tweek things, but that's about it. I'd much rather Harbaugh spend all that developmental time on a rookie or a 2nd, 3rd year QB who is raw.

Alex isn't raw (like Steve was). He is a poor QB. His ceiling is game manager.

Steve was better than Alex...but lets sway he was worse than Alex in Tampa....for every Steve Young that makes it....there are 100's of Trent Dilfers, Gus Ferrote's, Heath Shulers that don't!

its pretty easy for him to forget everything he has learned a new system practically every year

and about developing him he hasnt had the chance to be developed only person who did was norv turner and mike johnson in 2006 norv turner did very good with alex smith and alex played ok considering our team
under mike johnson this year he had a rating of i believe 93 when he was OC

other than that his teachers were nolan, raye hostler and sing
all whom are less than desirable coaches to develop a project qb

Fundamentals are exactly that, fundamental. They don't change from coach to coach, they don't change from team to team, or even collage to pros. If Alex really wanted to be a winner he would have hired an offseason trainer with experience in the fundamentals.

Hostler, is not a bad QB coach, Alex has never put in the offseason work to warrant all the loyalty his fans give him.

I've never seen heard or read about Alex working with WR's in the offseason, I've never seen heard or read about Alex running hills, or working with other QB's or even with a retired coach or personal position trainer, have you?

Have you ever even read about Alex staying late with his receivers DURING the season? Alex putting in extra work to get better?

Don't make Alex a victim, he is a grown man. He has not done the extra work pro's do to elevate themselves, he does not deserve your loyalty and respect.

Is it too late, no of course not, but what is he doing RIGHT NOW to improve his game?

Were are the stories of running his, throwing a hundred passes a day, or meeting with anyone, to work on FUNDAMENTALS!

Alex fails because his fundamental mechanics suck! Alex ONLY YOU CAN FIX THIS!
WOW! I'm surprised at this post. You seem like a pretty knowledgeable guy who stays up on a lot of things about the team. Therefore it surprises me to hear you say he hasn't worked in the off-season. There have been numerous stories of his off-season work, however, he has been somewhat limited by injury and the fact he needs other players as well as a good coach to work on things.

IMO, Smith's loyalty has been good news/bad news. He has been loyal to the organization but the organization has never supplied him with a decent position coach prior to Mike Johnson.

During the pre-season this past year, I researched all the other teams to learn the background of QB coaches around the league. What I found was that something like 22 of the 32 teams had former college or pro QBs in the position! Of the remaining 10, all but two, the 49ers and one other team, had players who had played skill positions on offense.

Think about that. Only the 49ers and one other team used DEFENSIVE players to coach the QB position...and that has been the way it has been since Nolan arrived. Consequently, Smith's loyalty has been his greatest enemy. By being loyal to the team coaches instead of going out and hiring his own coach, he has certainly slowed his progress.

Everybody in the NFL works in the offseason, guy's like Jerry Rice set the bar for excellence in the offseason. Alex does not seem to go beyond the normal expected kind of offseason.

Alex has had some awful coaching, I even said before on this forum he should sue Mike Nolan for malpractice!

All of Alex's bad coaching does not excuse the fact he did not go above and beyond the minimum. He could have hired Archie Manning, Archie runs a QB camp, if Alex volunteered some time I bet he could have gotten help himself.

He could have called Peyton Manning, or just about any other pro for tips, these guys love to work out together in the offseason.

He could have hired a personnel QB coach, it's not like he was to poor to afford one.

Jumping sports here but Barry Bonds had his own hitting coach, year round!

My point is this, don't make Alex a victim, he could have fixed his mechanics, and built up his fundamentals any time he wanted to do the work needed to be great, Alex is what he is because he let himself become what he is.

Everybody made excuses, for him, and even though he shrugged them all of and manned up and put the responsibility on himself....I think deep down he believed his failure wasn't his own...until a man takes his failures as his own he can never improve... at anything at all...ever!


Oh yeah, Bono, cause he was a winner, and he studied along side Joe and Steve under Bill Walsh!
Smith worked WITH the 49er staff during the off-season when he was healthy enough to do so.

As to Peyton, you don't know that he was going to be elite any more than I do, however, the entire point is that by comparing what other teams did with their QBs and how they developed, gives us insight into exactly how bad the 49ers were.

As to Smith getting his own trainer, that is entirely a hindsight judgement that assumes he even knew what his technical flaws were. Hostler was terrible as QB coach and keeping him as OC was just another in a long line of terrible Mike Nolan judgements.

If you want to overlook all of these things, and call them all "excuses," go ahead. I don't care to go through all of this again. The fact is, AT THIS POINT IN TIME, Alex Smith is clearly the best hope for a decent QB for the upcoming season without giving up a high draft pick for a mediocre stop-gap. My hope is that Harbaugh is close to the QB coach we all hope he is, and can work his craft with Smith. I would be very happy to see Smith play at the 90+ level he did in the final 1/3 of the season when Raye was gone and he had a real OC behind him. That's all...
  • TIM_
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 30
Like the fans at the Stick said clearly when they chanted for Carr over Alex...It's ANYONE except Alex !!! They didn't care who ,they just wanted Alex gone,never to return !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGyEqKOwtKs

Very funny video,but as I laughed I realized it is very true and then I didn't laugh quite so loudly.