Field Poll: Troy's Performance Tonight

Originally posted by Wodwo:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:

Speculate all you want, that's of no concern to me. My only point has been, this whole time, that Troy Smith is 3-1 as a starter and regardless of the teams he's faced or how well (or not) he's played, he's managed to lead his team to victory in 3 out of the 4 games he's started.

That doesn't mean he's the next Joe Montana, or the savior of the franchise or even that he's a good QB. It just means he's found a way to win these games and at the end of the day, those are the only facts that count in the NFL (wins/losses).

Logic fail.

He didn't lead anything last night. The running game and defense lead the team to victory. Troy did his best not to lose the game.

This is a team sport. Troy played his part and did not cause us to lose the game. He gets no credit for wins and losses. The team gets credit for wins and losses.

This is the most illogical thing that people say on this forum.

Troy did not have a good game.

Technically, you are correct. However, as much as football is a team sport (and you are absolutely correct in stating that), the leader on MOST football teams is the QB. As he goes, so goes the team (in just about every situation).

If one is following the letter of the law, then yes, I'm wrong in stating that Troy LED the team to victory. But if you go inside that locker room (or any other), you'll find that it's not a matter of cold, hard logic. And though everyone plays a part in the wins/losses, the play of the QB often dictates whether or not a team wins/loses...in that unique capacity, he becomes a default leader.

Btw, at the pro level (and other levels as well), they track individual wins and losses for only two roles...the head coach and the QB (as opposed to the DC, OC, WR, OG, etc.). There is a reason for that, regardless of the logic involved.

[ Edited by GhostofFredDean74 on Nov 30, 2010 at 11:00:22 ]

troy smith is a winner he won 3 out of 4 games he has started his only resume blemish was tampa bay shut out besides that all he does is win the 356yrd and td in win over rams was a thing of beauty

He has 4 tds and 3 int in 4 games. Pass for 137 yards last night. Was he even 50 percent completion %? The guy had one really good game that is it.

55% yuck
4 tds in 4 games yuck
3 int in 4 games yuck

Not saying Alex in the answer but neither is Troy.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Gavintech:

Originally posted by HessianDud:
It wasn't good.

I'd give him a C. He made a couple of throws, a couple of mistakes that against a good team would have killed us, but he didn't really have to do much. Hard to assess anyone on this team after last night, actually, because ARI just didn't care.

Troy has made some plays and shown flashes but now that we have a solid body of work to look at, he is obviously very raw. I would really like to see what he does with a full offseason of work, because right now he is very limited. I find it hard to believe that our record right now would be worse than it is if Alex were starting. In fact, I think we'd be one game better, because we would have beat Carolina.

To be fair Alex did start the Carolina game... He just didn't finish it. Also to be fair the game was tied when he went out and we had the ball, and it went downhill from there. You're right, we would have won that game if he stayed in.

I also see us at 2-9 with Alex. I don't think he carries us on his back like Troy did in vs DEN and STL. Alex loses those games.

Based on what does Alex go 2-9? We just played the easiest part of our schedule and have a OC that is calling better games than when Alex was playing.

Lets see how Troy does against the Packers and the Chargers and then we can talk about how much of a leader and how great Troy is at leading us to victories.

With Alex, we could have easily won against the Saints and the Falcons this year and that was with crappy OC play calling. I think those are games we can compare with the Packers and Saints.

Originally posted by rk1642:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Gavintech:

Originally posted by HessianDud:
It wasn't good.

I'd give him a C. He made a couple of throws, a couple of mistakes that against a good team would have killed us, but he didn't really have to do much. Hard to assess anyone on this team after last night, actually, because ARI just didn't care.

Troy has made some plays and shown flashes but now that we have a solid body of work to look at, he is obviously very raw. I would really like to see what he does with a full offseason of work, because right now he is very limited. I find it hard to believe that our record right now would be worse than it is if Alex were starting. In fact, I think we'd be one game better, because we would have beat Carolina.

To be fair Alex did start the Carolina game... He just didn't finish it. Also to be fair the game was tied when he went out and we had the ball, and it went downhill from there. You're right, we would have won that game if he stayed in.

I also see us at 2-9 with Alex. I don't think he carries us on his back like Troy did in vs DEN and STL. Alex loses those games.

Based on what does Alex go 2-9? We just played the easiest part of our schedule and have a OC that is calling better games than when Alex was playing.

Lets see how Troy does against the Packers and the Chargers and then we can talk about how much of a leader and how great Troy is at leading us to victories.

With Alex, we could have easily won against the Saints and the Falcons this year and that was with crappy OC play calling. I think those are games we can compare with the Packers and Saints.

Based on how we beat DEN and STL. Troy played great to help us win those games. He made plays Alex just doesn't make.

Originally posted by rk1642:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Gavintech:

Originally posted by HessianDud:
It wasn't good.

I'd give him a C. He made a couple of throws, a couple of mistakes that against a good team would have killed us, but he didn't really have to do much. Hard to assess anyone on this team after last night, actually, because ARI just didn't care.

Troy has made some plays and shown flashes but now that we have a solid body of work to look at, he is obviously very raw. I would really like to see what he does with a full offseason of work, because right now he is very limited. I find it hard to believe that our record right now would be worse than it is if Alex were starting. In fact, I think we'd be one game better, because we would have beat Carolina.

To be fair Alex did start the Carolina game... He just didn't finish it. Also to be fair the game was tied when he went out and we had the ball, and it went downhill from there. You're right, we would have won that game if he stayed in.

I also see us at 2-9 with Alex. I don't think he carries us on his back like Troy did in vs DEN and STL. Alex loses those games.

Based on what does Alex go 2-9? We just played the easiest part of our schedule and have a OC that is calling better games than when Alex was playing.

Lets see how Troy does against the Packers and the Chargers and then we can talk about how much of a leader and how great Troy is at leading us to victories.

With Alex, we could have easily won against the Saints and the Falcons this year and that was with crappy OC play calling. I think those are games we can compare with the Packers and Saints.

Wait, Didn't we lose those games?

Alex also had Frank Gore and Joe Staily to help him out while playing the #7 D Saints and the # 20 D Atlanta.

You want to compare the # 1 D (SanDiego) and the #12 D (Packers) games to to Alex playing lesser teams with better protection and better talent around him.

[ Edited by D_Niner on Nov 30, 2010 at 11:26:11 ]

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:

Technically, you are correct. However, as much as football is a team sport (and you are absolutely correct in stating that), the leader on MOST football teams is the QB. As he goes, so goes the team (in just about every situation).

If one is following the letter of the law, then yes, I'm wrong in stating that Troy LED the team to victory. But if you go inside that locker room (or any other), you'll find that it's not a matter of cold, hard logic. And though everyone plays a part in the wins/losses, the play of the QB often dictates whether or not a team wins/loses...in that unique capacity, he becomes a default leader.

Btw, at the pro level (and other levels as well), they track individual wins and losses for only two roles...the head coach and the QB (as opposed to the DC, OC, WR, OG, etc.). There is a reason for that, regardless of the logic involved.

I'm not "technically" correct, I'm just correct.

I understand that the leadership of a quarterback is important. However, it is merely another factor in the outcome of a team game. It is not the deciding factor.

Take Peyton Manning for example. He is undoubtedly the leader of that offense. However, if his offensive line fails to protect him, as we saw this past Sunday, he plays poorly.

Another example is Philip Rivers. He has carried the Chargers offense on his back all season without the help of his top receivers. Yet, they have lost many games this year due to poor special teams play.

Yet another example is Kyle Orton, who may not be an elite QB, but is at the top of the league right now statistically. They aren't scoring a lot of points (18th), but their defense has allowed the most points in the league.

Football is a complicated sport made up of many moving parts. It's not nearly as simple as you make it sound.

BTW, who are the "They" that you refer to?

Originally posted by Joecool:

Based on how we beat DEN and STL. Troy played great to help us win those games. He made plays Alex just doesn't make.

Show me the plays that he made that Alex hasn't made.

Not saying Alex is better than Troy, but you are pretty biased against Alex.

Alex has made many great plays in his career. He just hasn't made them on any kind of consistent basis. It seems Troy isn't exactly the perfect model of consistency, either.

Could there be a common theme? Perhaps that there are other factors effecting the play of our quarterbacks? Hmm....

Originally posted by wbaker:
He has 4 tds and 3 int in 4 games. Pass for 137 yards last night. Was he even 50 percent completion %? The guy had one really good game that is it.

55% yuck
4 tds in 4 games yuck
3 int in 4 games yuck

Not saying Alex in the answer but neither is Troy.

your wrong about troy smith stats in his 1st 2 starts 2tds no picks vs rams and broncos both games qb rating over 100 he had 1 int vs bucs and 1 td and 1 int vs cards add that up he has 3 passing tds 1 rushing td vs den and 2 picks 1 vs bucs and 1 vs cards. The bottom line is he is 3-1 as starter winning 75% of your games is great

Originally posted by Wodwo:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Based on how we beat DEN and STL. Troy played great to help us win those games. He made plays Alex just doesn't make.

Show me the plays that he made that Alex hasn't made.

Not saying Alex is better than Troy, but you are pretty biased against Alex.

Alex has made many great plays in his career. He just hasn't made them on any kind of consistent basis. It seems Troy isn't exactly the perfect model of consistency, either.

Could there be a common theme? Perhaps that there are other factors effecting the play of our quarterbacks? Hmm....

Did you even watch the St. Louis game?? Let's do a quick recap so we can review some plays that ALEX SMITH WILL NOT MAKE. There's about 2 1/2 minutes left in the 4th qtr and we find ourselves with a 3rd and 32--that's right 3rd and 32. T. Smith buys himself some time and finds Gore for 14 yds. What does A. Smith do on this play? He runs to his right and throws the ball out of bounds. Next play 4th and 18 and guess what? T. Smith finds Gore again, after some fancy footwork for a gain of 23 yds and a 1st down--what does A. Smith do? He runs around, feels pressure, panics, and throws a pic--end of game. You can't be that dumb or naive to believe A. Smith would have triumphed in the same situation--T. Smith is a winner and A. Smith is not. It really is that simple.

Originally posted by bigmike55:
I can sense all the Alex supporters getting mad that Troy is performing well so far, minus the Tampa game. 3-1, and y'all are saying to take him out and put Alex back in? WTF. If Troy Smith had 6 years with the niners, I guarantee his win loss record would be much better than Alex Smith's.

Troy Smith is a winner.

Alex Smith is a loser.

It's quite simple actually.

Troy has the eye of the tiger look about him. I am not ready to annoint him the next frnachise QB just yet. He has beaten some pretty lousy teams. LEt's see what happens this Sunday in Green Bay.

Originally posted by DaveWilcox:

Originally posted by bigmike55:
I can sense all the Alex supporters getting mad that Troy is performing well so far, minus the Tampa game. 3-1, and y'all are saying to take him out and put Alex back in? WTF. If Troy Smith had 6 years with the niners, I guarantee his win loss record would be much better than Alex Smith's.

Troy Smith is a winner.

Alex Smith is a loser.

It's quite simple actually.

Troy has the eye of the tiger look about him. I am not ready to annoint him the next frnachise QB just yet. He has beaten some pretty lousy teams. LEt's see what happens this Sunday in Green Bay.

Thanks for that--didn't see bigmike's post but I'll have to agree. Green Bay will be a huge test for T. Smith but I'm just elated at this point that we won't have to watch A. Smith lose it for us.

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by Wodwo:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:

Speculate all you want, that's of no concern to me. My only point has been, this whole time, that Troy Smith is 3-1 as a starter and regardless of the teams he's faced or how well (or not) he's played, he's managed to lead his team to victory in 3 out of the 4 games he's started.

That doesn't mean he's the next Joe Montana, or the savior of the franchise or even that he's a good QB. It just means he's found a way to win these games and at the end of the day, those are the only facts that count in the NFL (wins/losses).

Logic fail.

He didn't lead anything last night. The running game and defense lead the team to victory. Troy did his best not to lose the game.

This is a team sport. Troy played his part and did not cause us to lose the game. He gets no credit for wins and losses. The team gets credit for wins and losses.

This is the most illogical thing that people say on this forum.

Troy did not have a good game.

Fine, don't give credit to Troy... Lets give credit to the team. The TEAM has 3 wins out of 4 games with Troy starting at QB. They have only 1 win out of 7 games without Troy starting.

Obviously the stats support that the TEAM plays better and Wins more with Troy starting. Even if the game plan doesn't have Troy throwing for +300 yards and wants to focus on the run. The TEAM still plays better with Troy starting!

You must also acknowledge the VERY large difference in the level of competition in the first 7 games versus the past 4.

Also, it is important to recognize that the design of the offense was SO BAD in those first games that the OC was fired. As soon as that happened we saw what was obviously a more diversified offense that allowed a greater chance for success.

Those are two critical differences that would have had impact no matter which Smith was at the controls.

I am happy for the wins but to suggest that Troy Smith was the main reason for any of them is to ignore other more obvious and important changes.

Originally posted by Wodwo:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:

Technically, you are correct. However, as much as football is a team sport (and you are absolutely correct in stating that), the leader on MOST football teams is the QB. As he goes, so goes the team (in just about every situation).

If one is following the letter of the law, then yes, I'm wrong in stating that Troy LED the team to victory. But if you go inside that locker room (or any other), you'll find that it's not a matter of cold, hard logic. And though everyone plays a part in the wins/losses, the play of the QB often dictates whether or not a team wins/loses...in that unique capacity, he becomes a default leader.

Btw, at the pro level (and other levels as well), they track individual wins and losses for only two roles...the head coach and the QB (as opposed to the DC, OC, WR, OG, etc.). There is a reason for that, regardless of the logic involved.

I'm not "technically" correct, I'm just correct.

I understand that the leadership of a quarterback is important. However, it is merely another factor in the outcome of a team game. It is not the deciding factor.

Take Peyton Manning for example. He is undoubtedly the leader of that offense. However, if his offensive line fails to protect him, as we saw this past Sunday, he plays poorly.

Another example is Philip Rivers. He has carried the Chargers offense on his back all season without the help of his top receivers. Yet, they have lost many games this year due to poor special teams play.

Yet another example is Kyle Orton, who may not be an elite QB, but is at the top of the league right now statistically. They aren't scoring a lot of points (18th), but their defense has allowed the most points in the league.

Football is a complicated sport made up of many moving parts. It's not nearly as simple as you make it sound.

BTW, who are the "They" that you refer to?

If the QB position is "merely another factor in the outcome of a team game," how do you explan this:

NFL Franchise Player Tags by position (the average of the top 5 players in the league):

QUARTERBACK: $16.405m
DEFENSIVE END: $12.398m
OFFENSIVE LINE: $10.731m
LINEBACKER: $9.680m
WIDE RECEIVER: $9.521m
CORNERBACK: $9.566 million
RUNNING BACK: $8.156m
DEFENSIVE TACKLE: $7.003m
SAFETY: $6.455m
TIGHT END: $5.908m
PUNTER/KICKER: $2.814m

Listen, I get what you're trying to say in that this is a team sport that requires all aspects of the team to function properly to be successful. I really get that; I'm not as dumb as you might think (though perhaps not far off).

However, when you say, "I understand that the leadership of a quarterback is important. However, it is merely another factor in the outcome of a team game," you are minimizing the importance of the role of the QB in comparison to all other roles. Yes, each position plays a part, but it's not difficult to see how the various positions on a team are viewed in terms of their value (real or perceived).

The truth is (rightly or wrongly), the NFL places a higher value on the QB position than any other role, and not by accident. That doesn't mean that the QB does it all by himself, or that he is THE deciding factor in every single game because that's simply not true. It simply means that the people who write the checks are willing to pay the most to (in order):

1.) The guys under center
2.) The guys who can stop the guys under center
3.) The guys who protect the guys under center

Team sport? Yes, but not all teammates are considered equal in terms of their value/impact.

---------------------------------------

They, being whoever keeps track of the following stats (I challenge you to find similar stats for WRs, OGs, RBs, etc.):

Most Career Wins, Regular Season, by a Starting Quarterback, 185, Brett Favre, 1991–Present
Most Career Wins, Postseason Season, by a Starting Quarterback, 16, Joe Montana, 1979–1994
Most Consecutive Wins, Regular Season, by a Starting Quarterback, 23, Peyton Manning, Indianapolis Colts, 2008–2009
Most Consecutive Wins, Post-Season, by a Starting Quarterback, 10, Tom Brady, New England Patriots, 2001, 2003–2005
Most Consecutive Wins to start a career, Post-Season, by a Starting Quarterback, 10, Tom Brady, New England Patriots, 2001, 2003–2005
Most Consecutive Wins, Regular Season and Post-Season, by a Starting Quarterback, 25, Jim McMahon, Chicago Bears, 1984–1987
Most Consecutive Home Wins, Regular Season and Post-Season, by a Starting Quarterback, 29, Brett Favre, Green Bay Packers, 1995–1998
Most Consecutive Home Wins, Regular Season, by a Starting Quarterback, 25, Brett Favre, Green Bay Packers, 1995–1998; Tom Brady, New England Patriots, 2007-Present
Longest Regular Season home win streak to start a career for an NFL quarterback, 15, Kurt Warner, St. Louis Rams, 1999–2001
Longest Regular Season and Post-Season home win streak to start a career for an NFL quarterback, 17, Kurt Warner, St. Louis Rams, 1999–2001
Most Consecutive Road Wins, Regular Season and Post-Season, by a Starting Quarterback, 19, Joe Montana, San Francisco 49ers, 1988–1990; Kansas City Chiefs, 1993
Most Consecutive Road Wins, Regular Season, by a Starting Quarterback, 18, Joe Montana, San Francisco 49ers, 1989–1990; Kansas City Chiefs, 1993
Most Consecutive Road Wins in a Season, Regular Season and Postseason, by a Starting Quarterback, 10, Eli Manning, New York Giants, 2007
Most Road Wins in a Season, Regular Season and Postseason, by a Starting Quarterback, 10, Eli Manning, New York Giants, 2007
Most Wins in a Season, Regular Season and Post-Season, by a Starting Quarterback, 18, Tom Brady, New England Patriots, 2007
Most Wins in a Season, Regular Season, by a Starting Quarterback, 16, Tom Brady, New England Patriots, 2007
Most Consecutive Wins, Regular Season, by a Rookie Starting Quarterback, 13, Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh Steelers, 2004
Most Wins in a Season, Regular Season and Post-Season, by a Rookie Starting Quarterback, 14, Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh Steelers, 2004
Most Wins in a Season, Post-Season, by a Rookie Starting Quarterback, 2, Joe Flacco, Baltimore Ravens, 2008; Mark Sanchez, New York Jets, 2009
Longest regular season win streak to start a career for an NFL quarterback, 15, Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh Steelers, 2004–2005
Most Wins against a single opponent, Regular Season and Post-Season, by a Starting Quarterback, 28, Brett Favre, Green Bay Packers, 1992-2007 Minnesota Vikings, 2009-2010 vs. Detroit Lions
Longest win streak to start a career against a single opponent, Regular Season and Post-Season, by a Starting Quarterback, 10, Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh Steelers, 2004–2009 vs. Cleveland Browns
Longest win streak against a single opponent, Regular Season and Post-Season, by a Starting Quarterback, 13, Steve Young, San Francisco 49ers, vs. Los Angeles/St. Louis Rams, 1987, 1991–1998
Fewest Wins in a Regular Season by a Starting Quarterback who won the Super Bowl, 0, Doug Williams, Washington Redskins 1987

[ Edited by GhostofFredDean74 on Nov 30, 2010 at 12:43:19 ]

Originally posted by wrongway9erfan:


Did you even watch the St. Louis game?? Let's do a quick recap so we can review some plays that ALEX SMITH WILL NOT MAKE. There's about 2 1/2 minutes left in the 4th qtr and we find ourselves with a 3rd and 32--that's right 3rd and 32. T. Smith buys himself some time and finds Gore for 14 yds. What does A. Smith do on this play? He runs to his right and throws the ball out of bounds. Next play 4th and 18 and guess what? T. Smith finds Gore again, after some fancy footwork for a gain of 23 yds and a 1st down--what does A. Smith do? He runs around, feels pressure, panics, and throws a pic--end of game. You can't be that dumb or naive to believe A. Smith would have triumphed in the same situation--T. Smith is a winner and A. Smith is not. It really is that simple.

Yes, I watched the game.

Sorry, I wanted you to show me the throws that Troy made that Alex hasn't. Guess I didn't make that clear.

As for your opinion that I must be "dumb or naive" to believe that Alex Smith could triumph in pressure situations with the game on the line.... Do you not remember this game?




Both had about two minutes. Troy had to overcome ridiculous amounts of penalties and called back touchdowns. He overcame adversity. Great job on his part. Alex had to get a touchdown and a two point conversion against the reigning Super Bowl Champions. Troy was playing against the team that had the worst record in the league last year.

The defense folded in regulation in both games, but held up for Troy in overtime.

I can find you more examples if you want.

Again, I'm not saying Alex is better than Troy. I'm just saying that people are very biased against him and only see the bad things that he does and never the good.