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Tackle Play - Offensive Line

Originally posted by backontop:
Originally posted by Hopper:
Originally posted by backontop:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by flow:
LT: Sims
LG: Iupati
C: Baas
RG: Anthony Davis
RT: Staley

whens Heitmann coming back? pretty soon i hope. get Baas out of there.

while i agree Sims was best in Staley's position, i dont think itd make things much better by moving him. hes having enough issues playing his normal spot.

and Anthony Davis is trying to learn how to be a future stud LT in the NFL. making him learn G right now would just stunt his growth. why play him at all if he isnt getting practice at T.

Staley has been mediocre enough to bench right now for Sims. the line played fantastic with Sims at LT last year, and when Staley came back, it got worse.

imo 5 young guys with little experience is a recipe for disaster, which 2010 has been so far. im not even that comfortable with 3 raw kids like Rachal, Davis, and Iupati starting at once with Sims and Heitmann, let alone 5.

I would rather see

Sims-Iupati-Baas-Heitman-Snyder

someone clready didn't watch synder at right tackle last season.

No I did trust me.

Snyder at RT>>>>>Davis at RT.




I do however like the suggestion someone else made.

Sims-Iupati-Baas-Heitman-Staley


s**t man, I've been saying that since the season started. And as far as Staley moving back to RT, alot of us have been saying that since last season. When Staley was injuried last season, Sims played great at LT. Sims isn't much of a RT, but when it comes to LT, Sims is the best option on the team.

Iupati is just gonna need time. The dude is a mauler that can be over aggressive at times. He'll be fine as the season goes on. He just needs to concentrate on his technique and play smart. If worst comes to worst, the team can always start Heitmann at RG or they can move Baas back to RG and start Heitmann at center. The point is, the team has options.....

Rachal has got to go. This dude is easily the worst player on the line. He's been able to fly under the radar recently because the guy next to him has been so bad. I said at the start of the season, Rachal's best friend should be Davis. If Davis has a rough year, nobody will notice how bad Rachal really is. On the other hand, if Davis can get it going, Rachal will be exposed.


The O-line needs a shake up IMO. Singletary said today he watched the film and believes the O-line played well..........Ummmm right. If Sing really wants to impose his will on teams, he's gonna need the O-line to keep Gore and Smith alive. If they keep up their current play, both Gore and Smith will be hurt before long.

New starting O-line; Sims, Iupati, Baas, Snyder, Staley
or Sims, Heitmann, Bass, Snyder, Staley
or Sims, Baas, Heimann, Snyder, Staley
or Staley, Iupati, Baas, Heitmann, Davis


As I said earlier, the team has several options on the line. There is no excuse for not making a change if the line continues their horrible play.
Staley-Iupati-Baas-Heitman-Sims

/thread
Originally posted by Joecool:
Why don't we run more split backs? Won't that help better with the Tackles?

The spread helps with the tackles. Easier to see the blitz and easier to get the ball out quick on the hots.
Davis should start the entire season. The more experience he gets this season the quicker he will develop for next season.
Originally posted by Schulzy:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Why don't we run more split backs? Won't that help better with the Tackles?

The spread helps with the tackles. Easier to see the blitz and easier to get the ball out quick on the hots.

Did I just read "let's fix our 1980's offense by running some 1970's offense?" Just crazy enough to work... kiddin' JC it probably would help, except our goal isn't to babysit our tackles and run swing routes all damn day; it's to get this QB comfortable and get this damn ball a movin'.

Schultzy (and everybody not named Mike Singletary) are right. The spread is what makes babies these days. If we can take away the defensive end(s) inside move(s) and force them to blitz the gaps; that's exactly what you want...

But poor simple Mike the mule doesn't want to see his running back reduced to running draws and shovels and check downs so I guess we'll just run this horse sh*t instead...until we're 2 scores down in the 4th; then we come out guns a blazin'

FML
Originally posted by AKfanster:

New starting O-line; Sims, Iupati, Baas, Snyder, Staley
or Sims, Heitmann, Bass, Snyder, Staley
or Sims, Baas, Heimann, Snyder, Staley
or Staley, Iupati, Baas, Heitmann, Davis


As I said earlier, the team has several options on the line. There is no excuse for not making a change if the line continues their horrible play.

Every single one of those options is better than the one we got now. As you said, there is no excuse for this lineup we put out there every week, it's beyond frustrating at this point.
We are talking tackles here right, because we all know Rachel is a hole. I have been saying this, and now Singletary confirms it n his monday presser. Our tackles are playing with good fundamentals, it is the play design.

In my opinion, the splits (gaps) are too narrow, this give speed rushers an advantage. Our offensive formations are so densely packed the team looks constipated. Even when we go "spread" our O-line is packed like sardines in a bunch. This tight formation gives D-ends the luxury of of setting a tight edge in the run game, and gives a shorter path to the quarterback.

Wider splits, would help in the outside run game giving our wide bodies more room to drop a foot and pull. The downside is tighter splits put more pressure on backs and guards in terms of picking up delay blitzes, and stunts. Gore and Norris are both good blockers, and Byum is as well, so I think we could handle the interior pressure. We may have to replace Rachel with Snyder or even a plastic cone! The give up on holding Gore in the backfield for a few extra seconds is of course Alex would have to make plays to the wide receivers, taking away his quick check downs, but I think that can be a plus, with a guy like Vernon how many "safety valves" do you really need?

One final note, and I hate to say it because it is trend in blocking I personally don't like, but thats because I old school. The tackles on most NFL teams no longer get in a three point stance on passing downs, the are "winged" in a two point stance almost like a punt formation. The Pat's and the Colts are great examples, you always can tell pass or run when you watch them. Some times they are so strongly "Winged" it could be called "to many men in the backfield". (if you want to know the crown of the linemen's helmet MUST break an imaginary line created by the belt of the center to be on the line of scrimmage) Many tackles are so far back when they stand up in the two point stance they are not legal, we should employ more of this, if the NFL is not enforcing the rules, we should take advantage.

So there it is in a nut shell, add 3-6 inches to the splits, set protection to help the interior with backs and ends, allowing the tackles to be in a better position to "ride the speed rushers outside, cheat the tackles in a two point stance, and bingo fixed!
Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
We are talking tackles here right, because we all know Rachel is a hole. I have been saying this, and now Singletary confirms it n his monday presser. Our tackles are playing with good fundamentals, it is the play design.

In my opinion, the splits (gaps) are too narrow, this give speed rushers an advantage. Our offensive formations are so densely packed the team looks constipated. Even when we go "spread" our O-line is packed like sardines in a bunch. This tight formation gives D-ends the luxury of of setting a tight edge in the run game, and gives a shorter path to the quarterback.

Wider splits, would help in the outside run game giving our wide bodies more room to drop a foot and pull. The downside is tighter splits put more pressure on backs and guards in terms of picking up delay blitzes, and stunts. Gore and Norris are both good blockers, and Byum is as well, so I think we could handle the interior pressure. We may have to replace Rachel with Snyder or even a plastic cone! The give up on holding Gore in the backfield for a few extra seconds is of course Alex would have to make plays to the wide receivers, taking away his quick check downs, but I think that can be a plus, with a guy like Vernon how many "safety valves" do you really need?

One final note, and I hate to say it because it is trend in blocking I personally don't like, but thats because I old school. The tackles on most NFL teams no longer get in a three point stance on passing downs, the are "winged" in a two point stance almost like a punt formation. The Pat's and the Colts are great examples, you always can tell pass or run when you watch them. Some times they are so strongly "Winged" it could be called "to many men in the backfield". (if you want to know the crown of the linemen's helmet MUST break an imaginary line created by the belt of the center to be on the line of scrimmage) Many tackles are so far back when they stand up in the two point stance they are not legal, we should employ more of this, if the NFL is not enforcing the rules, we should take advantage.

So there it is in a nut shell, add 3-6 inches to the splits, set protection to help the interior with backs and ends, allowing the tackles to be in a better position to "ride the speed rushers outside, cheat the tackles in a two point stance, and bingo fixed!

Fixing one leak will spring another. The interior lineman are too weak to cover move space. Personnel must be changed.
  • dj43
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 20,131
Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
We are talking tackles here right, because we all know Rachel is a hole. I have been saying this, and now Singletary confirms it n his monday presser. Our tackles are playing with good fundamentals, it is the play design.

In my opinion, the splits (gaps) are too narrow, this give speed rushers an advantage. Our offensive formations are so densely packed the team looks constipated. Even when we go "spread" our O-line is packed like sardines in a bunch. This tight formation gives D-ends the luxury of of setting a tight edge in the run game, and gives a shorter path to the quarterback.

Wider splits, would help in the outside run game giving our wide bodies more room to drop a foot and pull. The downside is tighter splits put more pressure on backs and guards in terms of picking up delay blitzes, and stunts. Gore and Norris are both good blockers, and Byum is as well, so I think we could handle the interior pressure. We may have to replace Rachel with Snyder or even a plastic cone! The give up on holding Gore in the backfield for a few extra seconds is of course Alex would have to make plays to the wide receivers, taking away his quick check downs, but I think that can be a plus, with a guy like Vernon how many "safety valves" do you really need?

One final note, and I hate to say it because it is trend in blocking I personally don't like, but thats because I old school. The tackles on most NFL teams no longer get in a three point stance on passing downs, the are "winged" in a two point stance almost like a punt formation. The Pat's and the Colts are great examples, you always can tell pass or run when you watch them. Some times they are so strongly "Winged" it could be called "to many men in the backfield". (if you want to know the crown of the linemen's helmet MUST break an imaginary line created by the belt of the center to be on the line of scrimmage) Many tackles are so far back when they stand up in the two point stance they are not legal, we should employ more of this, if the NFL is not enforcing the rules, we should take advantage.

So there it is in a nut shell, add 3-6 inches to the splits, set protection to help the interior with backs and ends, allowing the tackles to be in a better position to "ride the speed rushers outside, cheat the tackles in a two point stance, and bingo fixed!
In reviewing the game, Rachal actually played well enough. He still isn't the player everyone hoped he would be but I believe part of his problems are related to the style of blocking.

Your point in splits is a good one. At the beginning of the season the splits were too wide and Seattle chewed them up. Then Solari tightened them up and the pass protection was better.

There is a happy medium that must be achieved. If the splits get too tight, it is hard to pull out or trap. If they are too wide they become vulnerable to blitzes.

[ Edited by dj43 on Oct 19, 2010 at 16:31:17 ]
It would be hard to move Staley Mid season and even more difficult to make major overhaul of the line. With that being said I think this set up would be the easiest and smoothest.

Staley, Iupati, Baas, Heitmann, Davis

With Heitmann back in at his previous position he already knows all the line calls and would be able to help Davis recognize defenses better. Also Heitmann is not a Mauler but would be better suited than Chilo on pulling plays and much better than Chilo in pass protection. Davis is young and will make mistakes but is much better than Snyder or Sims at RT.
  • FL9er
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 1,899
One could make the argument that poor line play is a result of a QB who doesn't see the field well and has no feel for the game. Combine that with a Head Coach's archaic offensive philosophy. ColoNiner who post's here made an interesting note (taken from kffl.com):

Quote:
Let's look at a few numbers:

Alex is tied for 10th in sacks taken (with Garrard). The guys with more sacks: Cutler, Rivers, Schaub, McNabb, Bradford, Rodgers, Orton, Ryan, Favre. Nice list. (Interesting: none of those guys are exactly nimble in the pocket. Alex is actually pretty athletic, he just never uses it until we're behind by a touchdown or more.)

Throw out Cutler b/c he plays for Martz, and you still have some pretty good QBs who have taken more lumps than Alex (including some fairly senior guys who know when to throw the ball away - without getting flagged for grounding).

Point being? I don't think you can make the case that because these QB's have more sacks, it follows necessarily that the O-lines of the Chargers, Texans, 'Skins, (never mind the Rams), Packers, Falcons, and Vikes all suck worse than our O-line does.

And it's not because they're in pass-happy schemes. Alex is 5th in passes attempted, after: Manning, Orton, Bradford, Brees. (That fact alone probably gives Singletary heartburn.) Manning (35th) and Brees (25th) are way down on the sack list - no duh, the lower the attempts-to-sack ratio, the more successful you are as a QB. So Alex has actually thrown more passes than most of the guys ahead of him on the got-sacked list, yet has gotten sacked less than they have.

Manning: 254:6 (attempts to sacks - damn he's good)
Orton: 247:13
Bradford: 234:14
Brees: 231:8 (likewise)
Alex's ratio: 223:12

...a few others:
McNabb: 215:14
Rodgers: 201:14
Favre: 150:13 (ouch!)

Here's the link to the stats I used: Yahoo Sports. I know a big factor here is QB hurries, but I haven't found any sources for numbers. Anyone know of any?...

And I know that sacks are just one stat, and there's much more to line play and offensive success than how many sacks you take. (Just look at the top 9 -- we'd take any one of those guys, hands down.)

Sorry, guys, I'm rambling a bit. Sure, we've got line issues, but they aren't contributing to a runaway number of sacks; more to the point, they don't directly cause Alex's cautious, check-down mentality, nor his inconsistency that drives many of us up the wall.

Take those same nine QB's with more sacks, have them make the same passes as Alex missed last week, and I think you'd see different results - even behind our O-line. (Hmmmm... is this something you can actually *do* in Madden?) I seriously doubt Favre, Ryan, or even Bradford simply miss their receivers as often as Alex does. (Well, maybe Favre. )

Not to mention it's fairly self-evident that Alex consistently throws high, and he's going to get someone killed one of these days. (Zeigler's abilities are a delight, but would he be as valuable on a team with a more accurate and consistent passer? I wonder.)

Since Alex enjoys the most success when he's in a spread, when he's got nothing to lose... perhaps he would blossom as a better 2nd stringer than a starter. It's true, once we bench him he's probably done, barring injury to Carr *and* T.Smith... but if I'm Mike Johnson, I'm feeding T Smith the playbook as fast as I can, so he can take reps with the 1's during the bye, and start vs. the Rams.

Read more: http://forums.kffl.com/threads/278426-Oakland-Game/page6#ixzz12uuh9zJr
Originally posted by FL9er:
One could make the argument that poor line play is a result of a QB who doesn't see the field well and has no feel for the game. Combine that with a Head Coach's archaic offensive philosophy. ColoNiner who post's here made an interesting note (taken from kffl.com):

Quote:
Let's look at a few numbers:

Alex is tied for 10th in sacks taken (with Garrard). The guys with more sacks: Cutler, Rivers, Schaub, McNabb, Bradford, Rodgers, Orton, Ryan, Favre. Nice list. (Interesting: none of those guys are exactly nimble in the pocket. Alex is actually pretty athletic, he just never uses it until we're behind by a touchdown or more.)

Throw out Cutler b/c he plays for Martz, and you still have some pretty good QBs who have taken more lumps than Alex (including some fairly senior guys who know when to throw the ball away - without getting flagged for grounding).

Point being? I don't think you can make the case that because these QB's have more sacks, it follows necessarily that the O-lines of the Chargers, Texans, 'Skins, (never mind the Rams), Packers, Falcons, and Vikes all suck worse than our O-line does.

And it's not because they're in pass-happy schemes. Alex is 5th in passes attempted, after: Manning, Orton, Bradford, Brees. (That fact alone probably gives Singletary heartburn.) Manning (35th) and Brees (25th) are way down on the sack list - no duh, the lower the attempts-to-sack ratio, the more successful you are as a QB. So Alex has actually thrown more passes than most of the guys ahead of him on the got-sacked list, yet has gotten sacked less than they have.

Manning: 254:6 (attempts to sacks - damn he's good)
Orton: 247:13
Bradford: 234:14
Brees: 231:8 (likewise)
Alex's ratio: 223:12

...a few others:
McNabb: 215:14
Rodgers: 201:14
Favre: 150:13 (ouch!)

Here's the link to the stats I used: Yahoo Sports. I know a big factor here is QB hurries, but I haven't found any sources for numbers. Anyone know of any?...

And I know that sacks are just one stat, and there's much more to line play and offensive success than how many sacks you take. (Just look at the top 9 -- we'd take any one of those guys, hands down.)

Sorry, guys, I'm rambling a bit. Sure, we've got line issues, but they aren't contributing to a runaway number of sacks; more to the point, they don't directly cause Alex's cautious, check-down mentality, nor his inconsistency that drives many of us up the wall.

Take those same nine QB's with more sacks, have them make the same passes as Alex missed last week, and I think you'd see different results - even behind our O-line. (Hmmmm... is this something you can actually *do* in Madden?) I seriously doubt Favre, Ryan, or even Bradford simply miss their receivers as often as Alex does. (Well, maybe Favre. )

Not to mention it's fairly self-evident that Alex consistently throws high, and he's going to get someone killed one of these days. (Zeigler's abilities are a delight, but would he be as valuable on a team with a more accurate and consistent passer? I wonder.)

Since Alex enjoys the most success when he's in a spread, when he's got nothing to lose... perhaps he would blossom as a better 2nd stringer than a starter. It's true, once we bench him he's probably done, barring injury to Carr *and* T.Smith... but if I'm Mike Johnson, I'm feeding T Smith the playbook as fast as I can, so he can take reps with the 1's during the bye, and start vs. the Rams.

Read more: http://forums.kffl.com/threads/278426-Oakland-Game/page6#ixzz12uuh9zJr

I think the next phase in the Alex Smith project should be to teach him to not stand statue in that last step on his drop back. Defensive Linemen are running straight to an imaginary target and Alex lands exactly in that target and rarely moves.

A lot of the QB's mentioned shuffle slightly forward after their last last in their drop. Montana would do this a lot. Steve Young's best play was doing this when he shuffled forward after his last step for the Catch II.

What Alex does is hit that last step and takes one very slight step up but not to move in front of the outside pressure but to stand high. What's worse is that he is a statue back there and doesn't even think about moving until the last split second which is usually too late.

Have you seen his throws when he takes those one or two shuffle steps forward? He has been spot on and super accurate with some major zip. I also noticed that this is why he can't make that "Looky what I found" quick-decision throw because he stands too high. He needs to keep his legs and feet ready to shuffle or step forward. This will help with his release, accuracy and ability to make that quick "looky what I found" throw.

This has been our QB's main issue.

Also, to this statement:
"The guys with more sacks: Cutler, Rivers, Schaub, McNabb, Bradford, Rodgers, Orton, Ryan, Favre. Nice list. (Interesting: none of those guys are exactly nimble in the pocket."

Cutler, McNabb, Rodgers and Favre are VERY athletic and quick in the pocket. To say they are not is taking a whole lot of credit away from them. I'm not sure how the athletic ability of the youngers QBs is as I haven't seen them enough. I just think we are highly over rating Alex's quickness over his actually ability which is straight ahead speed. He has rarely made a cut to make a player miss for extra yards when he runs. He hasn't shown much quickness in the pocket either besides a duck here and there and seeing a wide open lane to runs straight ahead in. He has speed, but he hasn't shown quickness and honestly, I think this has a lot to do with the fact that he stands too high in the pocket like a statue.
Thank you for posting that, FL9er, that was an interesting read.
  • Nes49
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 5,321
Originally posted by NCommand:
Man, Staley and Davis are just terrible. Every single pass play Smith is running for his life. I can somewhat understand Davis but Staley? This guy has gotten worse every year. FO's was noting that we also run the least off Staley's side too. Wonderful..he can't pass block and we can't run off his edge. This is a HUGE problem people. The talk of Chilo is seems to be the spotlight but watch our tackles and tell me what you think.

I kinda thought having 2 rookies in the lineup would be an issue. But the O-line has been a concern of mine for quite some time now. Isn't their FAs we can bring in to help the line?
  • flow
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 2,394
In case it isn't obvious by now...

Originally posted by flow:
LT: Sims
LG: Iupati
C: Baas
RG: Anthony Davis
RT: Staley
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