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Tackle Play - Offensive Line

Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by binary2nd:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
I look forward to watching more closely this week, but yes, our OL is not playing well. We all see this. I really thought Solari would be an upgrade to Foerster, but it's not happening. Really thought Alex was gonna get broken during this game.

Right now, I just don't have a solution for the OL. What did impress me was their ability to come out of their stance quickly in pass pro... but that's not helping them protect as it should. Sorry for this worthless, unhelpful post... just rambling.

Big smiles for our first W though.

There was an article earlier this week on how Smith passes under duress more then any QB in the game. Today? It must have been around 75% of the time!
The announcers last week said Smith led the league in "hurries." He had 40 going into that game. Just guessing, but I would say he added another 10 to that total yesterday. There was hardly a time where he had a well-formed pocket of protection. It is hard for Smith and the offense to develop a rhythm when the OL can't provide basic protection.

Teams practice pass plays to happen at a certain time, say a 2.5 15 yard curl route. However, if the OL only provides 2 seconds of protection, the play will fail. That happened too much yesterday.

So why not put Smith in the shotgun so he gets an extra .5 seconds to read the Defense, why not call some quick pass plays, or even some that utilize misdirection to keep the D honest?

When a QB leads the league in hurries or sacks, you can't just look at the OL. I think both are playing a role in this. Go back and look at the game because I noticed a lot of times when the pressure was confronted but was still coming yet Alex didn't seem to sense it until it was too late. These were plays where there were open pockets that he could have shifted to.
That is not the way the league measures a hurry. The league assumes a certain amount of time as judged by a league observer that reviews each play of the game. I don't know the specifics but I have heard the job of the league statistician described for such things. If the QB holds the ball for longer than would normally be considered enough time to throw the ball, then it is not a "hurry."

Also to be considered is the role of the TE and WRs. In the case of VD, he is often held in to to block initially and then go out. In that case, if there is quick pressure, Davis is not yet into the pattern. That is an issue with play design, not QB efficiency.

Also, regarding Davis, he is well known for not being particularly adept at reading defenses and making the correct hot reads. Last week Collinsworth pointed this out on one play where Smith was under pressure and had raised the ball while looking at Davis for a quick release but VD had turned to look. On that play, Smith was "hurried" and had to roll out and threw the ball away. That is a "hurry" on Davis.

Finally, opponents have found SF wide outs to be easy to control with man press coverage. The 49er receivers have not learned how to beat the coverage quickly in rhythm with the play and "hurries" result.

So, no, it isn't just an OL issue but it isn't just the OL and the QB. It is, like all of football, a team issue.

The bold is extremely subjective as Collinsworth also pointed out quite a few open receivers.

I understand hurries are dependent on time allowed for QB to throw first but QB around the league are hurried less than Alex but still make more plays than Alex. It seems like he expect the blocking to be textbook and doesn't prepare for the pocket to collapse. Other QBs (the better ones) move right away when they sense this and make a play. Alex still needs to work on his use of the pocket and ability to sense the pressure.
The league observer takes all of your points into consideration in assigning a "hurry."

I'm not pointing out how it's measured. I'm pointing out the results the QB provides after a hurry. Alex does not do well when hurried if anything at all.
Very few QBs do.

Said "mobile" QB's do much better than most. That doesn't change the fact that Smith needs to improve his pocket presence.
  • dj43
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 20,155
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by binary2nd:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
I look forward to watching more closely this week, but yes, our OL is not playing well. We all see this. I really thought Solari would be an upgrade to Foerster, but it's not happening. Really thought Alex was gonna get broken during this game.

Right now, I just don't have a solution for the OL. What did impress me was their ability to come out of their stance quickly in pass pro... but that's not helping them protect as it should. Sorry for this worthless, unhelpful post... just rambling.

Big smiles for our first W though.

There was an article earlier this week on how Smith passes under duress more then any QB in the game. Today? It must have been around 75% of the time!
The announcers last week said Smith led the league in "hurries." He had 40 going into that game. Just guessing, but I would say he added another 10 to that total yesterday. There was hardly a time where he had a well-formed pocket of protection. It is hard for Smith and the offense to develop a rhythm when the OL can't provide basic protection.

Teams practice pass plays to happen at a certain time, say a 2.5 15 yard curl route. However, if the OL only provides 2 seconds of protection, the play will fail. That happened too much yesterday.

So why not put Smith in the shotgun so he gets an extra .5 seconds to read the Defense, why not call some quick pass plays, or even some that utilize misdirection to keep the D honest?

When a QB leads the league in hurries or sacks, you can't just look at the OL. I think both are playing a role in this. Go back and look at the game because I noticed a lot of times when the pressure was confronted but was still coming yet Alex didn't seem to sense it until it was too late. These were plays where there were open pockets that he could have shifted to.
That is not the way the league measures a hurry. The league assumes a certain amount of time as judged by a league observer that reviews each play of the game. I don't know the specifics but I have heard the job of the league statistician described for such things. If the QB holds the ball for longer than would normally be considered enough time to throw the ball, then it is not a "hurry."

Also to be considered is the role of the TE and WRs. In the case of VD, he is often held in to to block initially and then go out. In that case, if there is quick pressure, Davis is not yet into the pattern. That is an issue with play design, not QB efficiency.

Also, regarding Davis, he is well known for not being particularly adept at reading defenses and making the correct hot reads. Last week Collinsworth pointed this out on one play where Smith was under pressure and had raised the ball while looking at Davis for a quick release but VD had turned to look. On that play, Smith was "hurried" and had to roll out and threw the ball away. That is a "hurry" on Davis.

Finally, opponents have found SF wide outs to be easy to control with man press coverage. The 49er receivers have not learned how to beat the coverage quickly in rhythm with the play and "hurries" result.

So, no, it isn't just an OL issue but it isn't just the OL and the QB. It is, like all of football, a team issue.

The bold is extremely subjective as Collinsworth also pointed out quite a few open receivers.

I understand hurries are dependent on time allowed for QB to throw first but QB around the league are hurried less than Alex but still make more plays than Alex. It seems like he expect the blocking to be textbook and doesn't prepare for the pocket to collapse. Other QBs (the better ones) move right away when they sense this and make a play. Alex still needs to work on his use of the pocket and ability to sense the pressure.
The league observer takes all of your points into consideration in assigning a "hurry."

I'm not pointing out how it's measured. I'm pointing out the results the QB provides after a hurry. Alex does not do well when hurried if anything at all.
Very few QBs do.

Said "mobile" QB's do much better than most. That doesn't change the fact that Smith needs to improve his pocket presence.
I agree but he has to have a pocket in which to improve.

That takes me to another aspect of OL play:

I want to see Heitmann at center. I don't care where Baas goes (likely RG) but I don't see any on the OL, especially the central guys, playing without any confidence that they are taking on the correct defender much of the time. I believe that goes back to the actual line call itself and the confidence players have in it.

[ Edited by dj43 on Oct 18, 2010 at 13:41:13 ]
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by binary2nd:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
I look forward to watching more closely this week, but yes, our OL is not playing well. We all see this. I really thought Solari would be an upgrade to Foerster, but it's not happening. Really thought Alex was gonna get broken during this game.

Right now, I just don't have a solution for the OL. What did impress me was their ability to come out of their stance quickly in pass pro... but that's not helping them protect as it should. Sorry for this worthless, unhelpful post... just rambling.

Big smiles for our first W though.

There was an article earlier this week on how Smith passes under duress more then any QB in the game. Today? It must have been around 75% of the time!
The announcers last week said Smith led the league in "hurries." He had 40 going into that game. Just guessing, but I would say he added another 10 to that total yesterday. There was hardly a time where he had a well-formed pocket of protection. It is hard for Smith and the offense to develop a rhythm when the OL can't provide basic protection.

Teams practice pass plays to happen at a certain time, say a 2.5 15 yard curl route. However, if the OL only provides 2 seconds of protection, the play will fail. That happened too much yesterday.

So why not put Smith in the shotgun so he gets an extra .5 seconds to read the Defense, why not call some quick pass plays, or even some that utilize misdirection to keep the D honest?

When a QB leads the league in hurries or sacks, you can't just look at the OL. I think both are playing a role in this. Go back and look at the game because I noticed a lot of times when the pressure was confronted but was still coming yet Alex didn't seem to sense it until it was too late. These were plays where there were open pockets that he could have shifted to.
That is not the way the league measures a hurry. The league assumes a certain amount of time as judged by a league observer that reviews each play of the game. I don't know the specifics but I have heard the job of the league statistician described for such things. If the QB holds the ball for longer than would normally be considered enough time to throw the ball, then it is not a "hurry."

Also to be considered is the role of the TE and WRs. In the case of VD, he is often held in to to block initially and then go out. In that case, if there is quick pressure, Davis is not yet into the pattern. That is an issue with play design, not QB efficiency.

Also, regarding Davis, he is well known for not being particularly adept at reading defenses and making the correct hot reads. Last week Collinsworth pointed this out on one play where Smith was under pressure and had raised the ball while looking at Davis for a quick release but VD had turned to look. On that play, Smith was "hurried" and had to roll out and threw the ball away. That is a "hurry" on Davis.

Finally, opponents have found SF wide outs to be easy to control with man press coverage. The 49er receivers have not learned how to beat the coverage quickly in rhythm with the play and "hurries" result.

So, no, it isn't just an OL issue but it isn't just the OL and the QB. It is, like all of football, a team issue.

The bold is extremely subjective as Collinsworth also pointed out quite a few open receivers.

I understand hurries are dependent on time allowed for QB to throw first but QB around the league are hurried less than Alex but still make more plays than Alex. It seems like he expect the blocking to be textbook and doesn't prepare for the pocket to collapse. Other QBs (the better ones) move right away when they sense this and make a play. Alex still needs to work on his use of the pocket and ability to sense the pressure.
The league observer takes all of your points into consideration in assigning a "hurry."

I'm not pointing out how it's measured. I'm pointing out the results the QB provides after a hurry. Alex does not do well when hurried if anything at all.
Very few QBs do.

Said "mobile" QB's do much better than most. That doesn't change the fact that Smith needs to improve his pocket presence.
I agree but he has to have a pocket in which to improve.

That takes me to another aspect of OL play:

I want to see Heitmann at center. I don't care where Baas goes (likely RG) but I don't see any on the OL, especially the central guys, playing with any confidence that they are taking on the correct defender much of the time. I believe that goes back to the actual line call itself and the confidence players have in it.

That happened last year also. This only really happened early portions of the game..

As for pockets, they were their for Smith to step under the outside pressure and over.
Originally posted by flow:
LT: Sims
LG: Iupati
C: Baas
RG: Anthony Davis
RT: Staley

whens Heitmann coming back? pretty soon i hope. get Baas out of there.

while i agree Sims was best in Staley's position, i dont think itd make things much better by moving him. hes having enough issues playing his normal spot.

and Anthony Davis is trying to learn how to be a future stud LT in the NFL. making him learn G right now would just stunt his growth. why play him at all if he isnt getting practice at T.

Staley has been mediocre enough to bench right now for Sims. the line played fantastic with Sims at LT last year, and when Staley came back, it got worse.

imo 5 young guys with little experience is a recipe for disaster, which 2010 has been so far. im not even that comfortable with 3 raw kids like Rachal, Davis, and Iupati starting at once with Sims and Heitmann, let alone 5.
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by flow:
LT: Sims
LG: Iupati
C: Baas
RG: Anthony Davis
RT: Staley

whens Heitmann coming back? pretty soon i hope. get Baas out of there.

while i agree Sims was best in Staley's position, i dont think itd make things much better by moving him. hes having enough issues playing his normal spot.

and Anthony Davis is trying to learn how to be a future stud LT in the NFL. making him learn G right now would just stunt his growth. why play him at all if he isnt getting practice at T.

Staley has been mediocre enough to bench right now for Sims. the line played fantastic with Sims at LT last year, and when Staley came back, it got worse.

imo 5 young guys with little experience is a recipe for disaster, which 2010 has been so far. im not even that comfortable with 3 raw kids like Rachal, Davis, and Iupati starting at once with Sims and Heitmann, let alone 5.

I would rather see

Sims-Iupati-Baas-Heitman-Snyder
  • FL9er
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 1,899
Rachal should go to the bench. It would really help the young offensive line if the staff can get away from the primitive play-calling.
Originally posted by FL9er:
Rachal should go to the bench. It would really help the young offensive line if the staff can get away from the primitive play-calling.

I'd almost rather see a four man offensive line than Rachal back out there. Currently, he only provides a false hope of protection. I'd rather Smith see that essentially, there is nothing there.
Originally posted by backontop:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by flow:
LT: Sims
LG: Iupati
C: Baas
RG: Anthony Davis
RT: Staley

whens Heitmann coming back? pretty soon i hope. get Baas out of there.

while i agree Sims was best in Staley's position, i dont think itd make things much better by moving him. hes having enough issues playing his normal spot.

and Anthony Davis is trying to learn how to be a future stud LT in the NFL. making him learn G right now would just stunt his growth. why play him at all if he isnt getting practice at T.

Staley has been mediocre enough to bench right now for Sims. the line played fantastic with Sims at LT last year, and when Staley came back, it got worse.

imo 5 young guys with little experience is a recipe for disaster, which 2010 has been so far. im not even that comfortable with 3 raw kids like Rachal, Davis, and Iupati starting at once with Sims and Heitmann, let alone 5.

I would rather see

Sims-Iupati-Baas-Heitman-Snyder

someone clready didn't watch synder at right tackle last season.
  • dj43
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 20,155
A few stats on line play:

49ers are #23 in the league on total rushing yards

#20 in yards/attempt

They have gained most yards running to the right. #7 overall

Running to the left they are #12.

Up-the-gut they are #31. Only Tampa is less efficient in the middle.

One might conclude Anthony Davis has been doing a good job out there.

Joe Staley has not been as bad as his last game.

Iupati, Baas and Rachal/Snyder are NOT setting the world on fire for a team that wants to "impose their will." I lay that to Baas not being as good as some think, both in his blocking calls and in his play. Iupati has made some mistakes but has been decent. Rachal has been streaky but most of the streaks have not been good.

HOWEVER, another big part of this is the fact that up until yesterday, teams were overloading the middle of the line and it was very hard to get anything going there. Whenever the 49ers did run outside it was a surprise and they gained yards.
Originally posted by AKfanster:
Staley should've never been moved from RT. He isn't even close to being the elite player some fans here at the zone think he is.

The tackle play could be fixed real easily.....Move Staley back to RT and start Sims on the left side. If Sing wanted to fix the rest of the line, he'd move Snyder or Heitmann to RG and bench Rachal ass.

Line fixed; Sims, Iupati, Baas, Heitmann/Snyder, Staley

Said this last Season minus Iupati and bout got laughed out of the Zone.

Did anyone notice the Personnel Graphic shown for our Offense had Chilo @ LG yesterday even though he was in his normal spot?

~Ceadder

[ Edited by Ceadderman on Oct 18, 2010 at 16:47:30 ]
Man , i am disillusioned. I fought long and hard for poti and AD, and rejoiced when we got solari and bigRay. But....i agree with you all that OL play stinks, and the ONLY thing these jokers have in common is...BM,bigmike. Say what you want, but i just do not believe, that staley, poti, baas, AD, bigray and solari are ALL that bad. They have one common link: BM, the guy who sets the direction for the team(we're gonna ram it down their throats, which is good sentiment, lousy football tactics with a team that:

---doesn't know how to block.
---Doesn't know how to tackle.
--- Doesn't know how to call O plays.
---Doesn't know how to call a D that keeps the other Qb on the defensive, not the offensive.
---Doesn't know how to play football in the nfl. Watching these guys is like watching pop warner football.
---Doesn't know how to teach WR and TEs how to run crisp routes.
---Doesn't know to teach and remind guys who intercept a ball with time running out to take a knee.
---Doesn't know how to teach a guy how to hold onto the ball, esp in red zone(Delanie)
---couldn't figure out for 18 mos how to get O plays in on time.
---finally did and still couldn't get plays in on time
---can't get but 9 guys on field for FG
--- gets 12 guys on field for punt

Hey, i could go on but to what end? This is ineptitude to the max. Yeah, we beat the hapless raiders. BFD. It's the not knowing football that gets in my craw. This is inexcusably bad football, on all levels, on all planes. Sure our owners are a bunch of dip schidts....they take plenty of blame too. But WE should be demanding a real football HC out there, and guys, we don't have one. We have a fake, a charlatan, a pretender, and many times(try on the sideline after missed call) an abject fool.

Look, i advocated for MJ to run the O and manusk to run the D, and fire BM because he is no HC, not even a pretender. He is just terrible, and who can blame him with no background but LB coach with who as his mentor? Yeah, noln. Crapola.
Now, maybe MJ and manusk feel the yoke of BM around their necks and cannot call plays like they would if on their own. But anything that has BMs imprinteur on it is
F**ked. The guy is just a loser, and has no business being on that field.

I have long advocated bringing in a HOFO(head of football ops, eg, parcells), because i have zero faith in silver spoon jed making the right decision on Gm, HC, or anything. But i strongly advocate for the immediate present that we schidt can BM. His mess is intolerable. If a Cowher came on next yr, maybe i'd say, ok, no HOFO. But everyone sees how one guy, a HC , can so thoroughly screw up a team, that it is hard to watch. Sure, we won the game. But we are losing the war. FIRE BM. Be kind and do it before any of us have to struggle thru another of his pressers. I no longer listen but do read how he made a fool out of himself.

Thing that bugs me most? BM is a guy with lots of pride, yet he knows he has failed on his azz, and yet he stays until the last bit of goodness is wrung out of this team. This is a bad coach, a horrible coach, who won't step aside, even when he knows he is killing this team with a thousand cuts. For a guy who i formerly worshiped. the monster of the midway, i have changed my tune. BM= LOSER
Originally posted by Hopper:
Originally posted by backontop:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by flow:
LT: Sims
LG: Iupati
C: Baas
RG: Anthony Davis
RT: Staley

whens Heitmann coming back? pretty soon i hope. get Baas out of there.

while i agree Sims was best in Staley's position, i dont think itd make things much better by moving him. hes having enough issues playing his normal spot.

and Anthony Davis is trying to learn how to be a future stud LT in the NFL. making him learn G right now would just stunt his growth. why play him at all if he isnt getting practice at T.

Staley has been mediocre enough to bench right now for Sims. the line played fantastic with Sims at LT last year, and when Staley came back, it got worse.

imo 5 young guys with little experience is a recipe for disaster, which 2010 has been so far. im not even that comfortable with 3 raw kids like Rachal, Davis, and Iupati starting at once with Sims and Heitmann, let alone 5.

I would rather see

Sims-Iupati-Baas-Heitman-Snyder

someone clready didn't watch synder at right tackle last season.

No I did trust me.

Snyder at RT>>>>>Davis at RT.




I do however like the suggestion someone else made.

Sims-Iupati-Baas-Heitman-Staley

[ Edited by backontop on Oct 18, 2010 at 20:10:46 ]
  • flow
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 2,394
Even non-homers notice the lack of support Anthony Davis gets:

Quote:
On one play, Peppers stunted to the inside, away from Okung. Left guard Ben Hamilton was waiting and ready to make the block. That play showed why teams often value veteran guards. I've thought the San Francisco 49ers would be better off with a veteran right guard to help rookie right tackle Anthony Davis.

- Initial thoughts on Russell Okung's day
  • flow
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 2,394
Originally posted by backontop:
Originally posted by Hopper:
Originally posted by backontop:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by flow:
LT: Sims
LG: Iupati
C: Baas
RG: Anthony Davis
RT: Staley

whens Heitmann coming back? pretty soon i hope. get Baas out of there.

while i agree Sims was best in Staley's position, i dont think itd make things much better by moving him. hes having enough issues playing his normal spot.

and Anthony Davis is trying to learn how to be a future stud LT in the NFL. making him learn G right now would just stunt his growth. why play him at all if he isnt getting practice at T.

Staley has been mediocre enough to bench right now for Sims. the line played fantastic with Sims at LT last year, and when Staley came back, it got worse.

imo 5 young guys with little experience is a recipe for disaster, which 2010 has been so far. im not even that comfortable with 3 raw kids like Rachal, Davis, and Iupati starting at once with Sims and Heitmann, let alone 5.

I would rather see

Sims-Iupati-Baas-Heitman-Snyder

someone clready didn't watch synder at right tackle last season.

No I did trust me.

Snyder at RT>>>>>Davis at RT.




I do however like the suggestion someone else made.

Sims-Iupati-Baas-Heitman-Staley

This is interesting, but my concern is Heitmann's relative lack of mobility. He used to play guard, but can he still do so at this age and coming off a broken leg? Then again, this offense doesn't seem to use that many pulling-guard sweeps, so...
  • dj43
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 20,155
Originally posted by flow:
Originally posted by backontop:
Originally posted by Hopper:
Originally posted by backontop:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by flow:
LT: Sims
LG: Iupati
C: Baas
RG: Anthony Davis
RT: Staley

whens Heitmann coming back? pretty soon i hope. get Baas out of there.

while i agree Sims was best in Staley's position, i dont think itd make things much better by moving him. hes having enough issues playing his normal spot.

and Anthony Davis is trying to learn how to be a future stud LT in the NFL. making him learn G right now would just stunt his growth. why play him at all if he isnt getting practice at T.

Staley has been mediocre enough to bench right now for Sims. the line played fantastic with Sims at LT last year, and when Staley came back, it got worse.

imo 5 young guys with little experience is a recipe for disaster, which 2010 has been so far. im not even that comfortable with 3 raw kids like Rachal, Davis, and Iupati starting at once with Sims and Heitmann, let alone 5.

I would rather see

Sims-Iupati-Baas-Heitman-Snyder

someone clready didn't watch synder at right tackle last season.

No I did trust me.

Snyder at RT>>>>>Davis at RT.




I do however like the suggestion someone else made.

Sims-Iupati-Baas-Heitman-Staley

This is interesting, but my concern is Heitmann's relative lack of mobility. He used to play guard, but can he still do so at this age and coming off a broken leg? Then again, this offense doesn't seem to use that many pulling-guard sweeps, so...
The current guards were not drafted to pull. They were drafted to be bulldozers.