Move David Baas to center

Originally posted by PatrickJira411:

Originally posted by Legbreaker:

Originally posted by PatrickJira411:

Originally posted by Legbreaker:

Originally posted by PatrickJira411:

Originally posted by Legbreaker:

Originally posted by MadMartz:

Originally posted by Legbreaker:
Baas is a vagina. His feet are slow, he has a really weak hand punch out of his stance, he has marginal leg drive, and he rarely makes it to the second level.

Heitmann is solid, if unspectacular. He's one of our best linemen, and he's far more of a starter than Bass.

Stack Heitman up against other NFL centers and where do you rank him?

He's upper echelon...definitely top 10.

I can easily name 10 better center's than Eric Heitman;

Jeff Saturday
Matt Birk
Andre Gurode
Nick Mangold
Kevin Mawae
Todd McClure
Shuan O'Hara
Nick Hardwick
Dan Koppen
Ryan Kalil
Brad Meester

Do I need to keep going?

Meester? A so-so leader of a so-so line. Great as a run blocker...questionable pass protector.

McClure? Good pass protector...declining as a run blocker. Good, not great.

Kreutz? Christ...watch the Niner-Bear game and review that assessment. He got jocked all night.

O'Hara? C'mon. Please. O'Hara played like sh*t over the last half of the season.

Koppen? Great pass protector, marginal run blocker.

You've listed some real studs, and some marginal players, too...but you really need to watch games, bro.

Heitmann is the best player on his line, and it isn't close. Watch a game, and watch what he does with almost no help from his left, and a little help on his right. The guy is a bona fide player, and if the Niners had a better record, he'd have the media swinging on his nuts.

I never mentioned Kruetz and u say Meester is a very good run blocker but a sub-par pass blocker and Koppen is a good pass blocker but a sub-par run blockers; Well Heitman is an awful run blocker and below avg pass blocker.

Patrick, the following statement has told me everything I need to know about your knowledge of football as it pertains to the offensive linemen:

"Well Heitman is an awful run blocker and below avg pass blocker."

My grandfather used to say that its hard to argue the color of money with a blind man. He was right.

It is painfully obvious that you haven't the faintest notion what you're talking about.

Im blind? Your the one who is saying I mentioned Olin Kruetz when I never did.

I sincerely apologize. I blended my response to you with my response to MadMartz (or should I say, captain AdHominem?).

In any case, your previous statement, which you have made no qualified effort to support is still wrong, and I stand by my previous statement, which I will reiterate now:

Patrick, the following statement has told me everything I need to know about your knowledge of football as it pertains to the offensive linemen:

"Well Heitman is an awful run blocker and below avg pass blocker."

My grandfather used to say that its hard to argue the color of money with a blind man. He was right.

It is painfully obvious that you haven't the faintest notion what you're talking about.

I'm done with this thread.

What is hilarious to me from the anti-Heitmann crowd is that they are so full of knowledge and details in their analysis (none)...that they can't even spell his name correctly. For the 1000th time for Club Mensa, it is spelled.....

HEITMANN. That would equal 2 "N's", not one.

Those that can't even spell his name correctly show the lack of any ability to analyze responsibilities, duties, schemes. Details suck!!!!! So does bias that is based on nothing that some random, mindless conception that he is some problem we must address. This is virtually on the same playing field as demanding that some scrubby punter replace Lee, or some hack at LB replace Willis. It is just flat out stupid.

Once again, just to embarrass the same four clowns that get on this board and try to belittle him ever year with their pathetic arguments, there is no doubt in the next week that the beat writers will be writing, as they have done all year, and last year, that Heitmann is one of the better players on our team. There is a reason he is the team captain. Because he sucks??? Now, that, my friends, is genius level observation.

Wasn't the humilation of the "Eric Heitmann is a Good Football Player" thread from last year enough. These same people run away and then come back for second and third helpings. Pure masochism.

Save yourself and pull the plug. You lose ALL credibility when you speak this nonsense.

Maddog supporting Heit? What do you know??!!!!

Seriously, the line is a mess. There are clear problems, so let's resolve them rather than risk creating more.

If we get a good guard early and maybe an older vet in FA, we can see if Rachal is going to make or if this season's regression is permanent.

I know several of you don't like the idea of starting two rookies in the line, but unless we get lucky in FA for me the alternative is worse.

And as I don't want to see him starting next year at guard, I certainly can't agree with the idea of shifting him to center. Critical position.

Wont work. Look at the guys legs? They are short and will have any QB over 6'2 work that much more to get down. We drafted Wallace for that reason...why not him or is that just another wasted pick by our 9ers?

Originally posted by Legbreaker:
Baas is a vagina. His feet are slow, he has a really weak hand punch out of his stance, he has marginal leg drive, and he rarely makes it to the second level.

Heitmann is solid, if unspectacular. He's one of our best linemen, and he's far more of a starter than Bass.

I don't know where to go with this.

On one hand I'm disposed to light you up with all kinds of Hymen gaffs over the last 3 seasons.

On the other you're connected could take it wrong and give me enough of a waring that I'm banished.

I pointed out previously though that Hymen has let guys go RIGHT BY HIM without attempting to push them off their angle. The Rocky Bernard "sack" on Smith 3 years ago is a PERFECT example of this. Bernard ain't THAT fast. He's not a LB and definitely is not a Safety. So how in the hell does Hymen not lay a glove on him? Cause he's looking straight ahead waiting for a Linebacker to bust his cherry.

PATHETIC!!!

So I'm sorry but all you guys sticking up for Hymen really have no clue, do you? If Bernard tried that junk on Sappolu he would have gotten CANNED. Newberry? Same. Hymen gives em free passes an then gives them a rain check for future dates of play.

I'm not saying he sucks but he's NOT the guy. He should be replaced by a guy that understand what a Center does. Even if they have to be TRAINED to play at the NFL level. This is something that was SUPPOSEDLY to be done with Baas. Talk smack about Baas and Rachal all ya want. You're WRONG. Watch the films. On EVERY play they HAVE to assist Hymen. Not the other way around. There is a REASON why our Guards look like crap. Sometimes it's cause they take on premiere DTs' but a good part of the time they are having to help Hymen take on a block that he himself set. For a guy that "understands" all the schemes, he is ALWAYS getting knocked off the ball and the rest of the Line colapses around the QB or Back and guys are in their faces all day long.

You guys that are Alex's biggest critics should be forced(as if we could force the willing) to watch just an hour of nothing but Offensive Line tape from a WINNING game. And then watch 10 minutes from a losing game. Better eat lightly cause you'll lose your lunch.

This stuff is not new. Nothing here about this unit surprises ANYONE. But even going back to the Larry Allen/Jennings days. This Line couldn't protect the QB if he was standing on the other side of the Grand Canyon with Piranha in it behind them. The QB would get demolished behind them. That cannot be a coincidence that Hymen was the Center then too? You guys remember when Jennings about lost it on the Sidelines going after Nolan? Might THAT have been the reason? That Hymen called the wrong scheme Jennings took the wrong block and the play got blown up?

How can people CONTINUE to use the "well all his coaches say that he's one of the best" as though it were fact?

Could that have been "well all his coaches say that he's one of the best" ... "at getting their QB killed"?

If you want to see TRUE straight up Hymen look at this season. In the IForm even plays that should catch the D are blown up. In the Shotgun/Spread form? Not so much because the Defense HAS to adjust to it. So Hymen has less to look at and the plays aren't straight up busts.

I've seen people lambaste Raye about play calling. Saying that he calls something the Defense knows is coming. Truer words were never spoken. BUT...

Behind a solid Line with a halfway solid KNOWLEDGEABLE Center you could run the same play 100% of the time on EVERY down and more often than not have SUCCESS. It's BULLCRAP that it's lain at Raye's feet for anything more than he has to disguise the shortcomings of the Line. In any case teams like Philly will be knocking us down and taking our lunch money cause they don't spread out all the time. They still have Johnson's mentality to bring a blitz even when it could kill them. They will have success that pays dividends.

Replace that slow Truck wearing blinders. Slide him over an let HIM help the new guy. You would see an IMMEDIATE difference. One for the better imho.

Mmmm... if I get banished I get banished.

~Ceadder

Another bad day for the Heitmann haters (which is so bizarre that I will never understand it).

Maiocco latest entry on the Niners' OL in 2009:
"Center Eric Heitmann was the team's most consistent offensive lineman. Playing that position is more cerebral than anything else, but Heitmann is one of the more physical centers in the game. He's not nearly as productive in space."
Heitmann's evaluation from Maiocco

Next, we will hear the same thing from Barrows, then the same thing from Sando, and then from the OC, just like last year.

So, if you are one of the four people on this board who have a bias against Heitmann, and are so blinded by your hatred for this player that you are determined to argue year-in, year-out that Heitmann is a problem for this team, it means you have zero knowledge of the game. Please list your names below. You may agree to this statement:
"I agree that I have become so biased against Eric Heitmann that even though year-in, year-out, he is determined to be one of the best, if not the best OL on this team by sportswriters, coaches, and fellow players who continue to name him team captain, that it doesn't matter. The earth is flat and the center of the solar system, dogs moo and cows bark, and Hilary Clinton is really controlled by aliens."

Just admit to the board that you do not know what you are talking about, and that no one should ever take your analysis seriously.

We'll see you next year, when you hope that nobody remembers this year, which was the same argument that you were humilated with last year.

Why would anyone continue to be humiliated year after year with an argument so pathetic?

[ Edited by MadDog49er on Jan 10, 2010 at 15:27:52 ]

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Another bad day for the Heitmann haters (which is so bizarre that I will never understand it).

Maiocco latest entry on the Niners' OL in 2009:
"Center Eric Heitmann was the team's most consistent offensive lineman. Playing that position is more cerebral than anything else, but Heitmann is one of the more physical centers in the game. He's not nearly as productive in space."
Heitmann's evaluation from Maiocco

Next, we will hear the same thing from Barrows, then the same thing from Sando, and then from the OC, just like last year.

So, if you are one of the four people on this board who have a bias against Heitmann, and are so blinded by your hatred for this player that you are determined to argue year-in, year-out that Heitmann is a problem for this team, it means you have zero knowledge of the game. Please list your names below. You may agree to this statement:
"I agree that I have become so biased against Eric Heitmann that even though year-in, year-out, he is determined to be one of the best, if not the best OL on this team by sportswriters, coaches, and fellow players who continue to name him team captain, that it doesn't matter. The earth is flat and the center of the solar system, dogs moo and cows bark, and Hilary Clinton is really controlled by aliens."

Just admit to the board that you do not know what you are talking about, and that no one should ever take your analysis seriously.

We'll see you next year, when you hope that nobody remembers this year, which was the same argument that you were humilated with last year.

Why would anyone continue to be humiliated year after year with an argument so pathetic?

Well saying he was one of the 49ers most consistant offensive lineman is not saying much when you consider Adam Snyder sucks(ed), Rachal was awful the first half of the season as was Baas who was playing hurt and Staley was basically out for the year after week 7. So basically Heitman was our most consistant o-lneman by default and he was consistant in getting driven back into the backfield when we most needed a yard and I don't know what MM was thinking in writing that Heitman is one of the league's most physical centers? Hmmm...

If Heitman was so great why did the team want to get Cody Wallace onto the field the last couple of games?

Originally posted by PatrickJira411:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Another bad day for the Heitmann haters (which is so bizarre that I will never understand it).

Maiocco latest entry on the Niners' OL in 2009:
"Center Eric Heitmann was the team's most consistent offensive lineman. Playing that position is more cerebral than anything else, but Heitmann is one of the more physical centers in the game. He's not nearly as productive in space."
Heitmann's evaluation from Maiocco

Next, we will hear the same thing from Barrows, then the same thing from Sando, and then from the OC, just like last year.

So, if you are one of the four people on this board who have a bias against Heitmann, and are so blinded by your hatred for this player that you are determined to argue year-in, year-out that Heitmann is a problem for this team, it means you have zero knowledge of the game. Please list your names below. You may agree to this statement:
"I agree that I have become so biased against Eric Heitmann that even though year-in, year-out, he is determined to be one of the best, if not the best OL on this team by sportswriters, coaches, and fellow players who continue to name him team captain, that it doesn't matter. The earth is flat and the center of the solar system, dogs moo and cows bark, and Hilary Clinton is really controlled by aliens."

Just admit to the board that you do not know what you are talking about, and that no one should ever take your analysis seriously.

We'll see you next year, when you hope that nobody remembers this year, which was the same argument that you were humilated with last year.

Why would anyone continue to be humiliated year after year with an argument so pathetic?

Well saying he was one of the 49ers most consistant offensive lineman is not saying much when you consider Adam Snyder sucks(ed), Rachal was awful the first half of the season as was Baas who was playing hurt and Staley was basically out for the year after week 7. So basically Heitman was our most consistant o-lneman by default and he was consistant in getting driven back into the backfield when we most needed a yard and I don't know what MM was thinking in writing that Heitman is one of the league's most physical centers? Hmmm...

If Heitman was so great why did the team want to get Cody Wallace onto the field the last couple of games?

First, let's eliminate one of the great myths in some people's minds. Heitmann does not get driven back any more than any other center in the NFL. The fantasy that there are all these NFL centers who drive their guys off the ball in short yardage situations is just that...a fantasy. Maiocco is right that Heitmann is one of the stronger blockers, more physical players at the line of scrimmage for NFL centers. I watch nearly every center every week during the season, and testify that this is not an issue. If it is, then nearly every single center in the NFL should be replaced.

Second, your premise is that we should take one of our worst starting players, and have him replace the best, or second best lineman on the team. Heitmann is easily the best interior lineman, and it is not even close. So, why in hell would we bench him for a guy like Baas?

Finally, Wallace was not getting playing time to replace Heitmann in the starting lineup. He was getting time to see if the team wants to retain Baas, or let him walk in free agency. This may mean moving Heitmann to guard, but probably is having Wallace get playing time on the interior to see if he can play at guard next year. This had nothing to do with a future Heitmann benching, which would be idiotic.

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by PatrickJira411:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Another bad day for the Heitmann haters (which is so bizarre that I will never understand it).

Maiocco latest entry on the Niners' OL in 2009:
"Center Eric Heitmann was the team's most consistent offensive lineman. Playing that position is more cerebral than anything else, but Heitmann is one of the more physical centers in the game. He's not nearly as productive in space."
Heitmann's evaluation from Maiocco

Next, we will hear the same thing from Barrows, then the same thing from Sando, and then from the OC, just like last year.

So, if you are one of the four people on this board who have a bias against Heitmann, and are so blinded by your hatred for this player that you are determined to argue year-in, year-out that Heitmann is a problem for this team, it means you have zero knowledge of the game. Please list your names below. You may agree to this statement:
"I agree that I have become so biased against Eric Heitmann that even though year-in, year-out, he is determined to be one of the best, if not the best OL on this team by sportswriters, coaches, and fellow players who continue to name him team captain, that it doesn't matter. The earth is flat and the center of the solar system, dogs moo and cows bark, and Hilary Clinton is really controlled by aliens."

Just admit to the board that you do not know what you are talking about, and that no one should ever take your analysis seriously.

We'll see you next year, when you hope that nobody remembers this year, which was the same argument that you were humilated with last year.

Why would anyone continue to be humiliated year after year with an argument so pathetic?

Well saying he was one of the 49ers most consistant offensive lineman is not saying much when you consider Adam Snyder sucks(ed), Rachal was awful the first half of the season as was Baas who was playing hurt and Staley was basically out for the year after week 7. So basically Heitman was our most consistant o-lneman by default and he was consistant in getting driven back into the backfield when we most needed a yard and I don't know what MM was thinking in writing that Heitman is one of the league's most physical centers? Hmmm...

If Heitman was so great why did the team want to get Cody Wallace onto the field the last couple of games?

First, let's eliminate one of the great myths in some people's minds. Heitmann does not get driven back any more than any other center in the NFL. The fantasy that there are all these NFL centers who drive their guys off the ball in short yardage situations is just that...a fantasy. Maiocco is right that Heitmann is one of the stronger blockers, more physical players at the line of scrimmage for NFL centers. I watch nearly every center every week during the season, and testify that this is not an issue. If it is, then nearly every single center in the NFL should be replaced.

Second, your premise is that we should take one of our worst starting players, and have him replace the best, or second best lineman on the team. Heitmann is easily the best interior lineman, and it is not even close. So, why in hell would we bench him for a guy like Baas?

Finally, Wallace was not getting playing time to replace Heitmann in the starting lineup. He was getting time to see if the team wants to retain Baas, or let him walk in free agency. This may mean moving Heitmann to guard, but probably is having Wallace get playing time on the interior to see if he can play at guard next year. This had nothing to do with a future Heitmann benching, which would be idiotic.

Eric Heitmann is the least of our worries. If you get him a legitimate left guard, and let Baas and Rachal battle it out for the RG spot, I guarantee you that he'll perform at a near-pro bowl level.

I agree, it doesnt matter if he Bass hasnt played Center since College, he can make the move and I say put Heitman on Tackle. But it would make even more since to give the Pats our first round pic for Mankins and give Gore some seasoned blocking. The question is, even if Mankins does land in SF, who will take over at Tackle... and since Mankins can improve the middle by far, it would make since to try Heitman at Tackle just to see right? Our Niners two weakest points this last year was the Off. line and secondary so Mankins makes an emmediant improvment and can focus the secondary.

This whole argument is bogus...when you consider Baas played C for exactly half of his senior season. He was an OG the rest of his career at Mich...so, what makes any of you think he could be an effective C now? He's a mauler...not what's needed at the position. Heitmann's been lauded not just by his current coaches, but those from the past, as well. Coaches like Martz, Norv Turner, Mike McCarthy...these guys know a lot about OL, in particular C, because they're all OC's/head coaches. To be fair, there are better blockers who play the position...but they don't have the smarts Heitmann has. That's why it makes no sense to shift Baas to the position...so, pls, let's end this charade of an argument, because it has no merit. There are far more important things to talk about...such as both OG positions and RT. Now...there's something worth debating...cheez.

Originally posted by Constantine:
I agree, it doesnt matter if he Bass hasnt played Center since College, he can make the move and I say put Heitman on Tackle. But it would make even more since to give the Pats our first round pic for Mankins and give Gore some seasoned blocking. The question is, even if Mankins does land in SF, who will take over at Tackle... and since Mankins can improve the middle by far, it would make since to try Heitman at Tackle just to see right? Our Niners two weakest points this last year was the Off. line and secondary so Mankins makes an emmediant improvment and can focus the secondary.

Move Heitmann to tackle??? really?? I can see moving him BACK to guard, but tackle???

Originally posted by smileyman:

Originally posted by Legbreaker:

Heitmann is the best player on his line, and it isn't close. Watch a game, and watch what he does with almost no help from his left, and a little help on his right. The guy is a bona fide player, and if the Niners had a better record, he'd have the media swinging on his nuts.

This is why we don't want to move Baas to center.

Rachal is on the ground and Heitmann is blocking two Seattle players by himself.

WTH are you looking at. Heitmann is blocking ONE player on his own. Rachal is in the process of going down. What is Baas sposed to do look out his earhole and drive through Heitman to pick up the blitzer?

Oh but he shouldn't have to since Superman Heitmann is holding off two blitzers all by his lonesome.

~Ceadder

Originally posted by PatrickJira411:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Another bad day for the Heitmann haters (which is so bizarre that I will never understand it).

Maiocco latest entry on the Niners' OL in 2009:
"Center Eric Heitmann was the team's most consistent offensive lineman. Playing that position is more cerebral than anything else, but Heitmann is one of the more physical centers in the game. He's not nearly as productive in space."
Heitmann's evaluation from Maiocco

Next, we will hear the same thing from Barrows, then the same thing from Sando, and then from the OC, just like last year.

So, if you are one of the four people on this board who have a bias against Heitmann, and are so blinded by your hatred for this player that you are determined to argue year-in, year-out that Heitmann is a problem for this team, it means you have zero knowledge of the game. Please list your names below. You may agree to this statement:
"I agree that I have become so biased against Eric Heitmann that even though year-in, year-out, he is determined to be one of the best, if not the best OL on this team by sportswriters, coaches, and fellow players who continue to name him team captain, that it doesn't matter. The earth is flat and the center of the solar system, dogs moo and cows bark, and Hilary Clinton is really controlled by aliens."

Just admit to the board that you do not know what you are talking about, and that no one should ever take your analysis seriously.

We'll see you next year, when you hope that nobody remembers this year, which was the same argument that you were humilated with last year.

Why would anyone continue to be humiliated year after year with an argument so pathetic?

Well saying he was one of the 49ers most consistant offensive lineman is not saying much when you consider Adam Snyder sucks(ed), Rachal was awful the first half of the season as was Baas who was playing hurt and Staley was basically out for the year after week 7. So basically Heitman was our most consistant o-lneman by default and he was consistant in getting driven back into the backfield when we most needed a yard and I don't know what MM was thinking in writing that Heitman is one of the league's most physical centers? Hmmm...

If Heitman was so great why did the team want to get Cody Wallace onto the field the last couple of games?

Most consistently awful maybe. I mean when you have a guy on the field for the entire season and nobody else can say they either played the same position the entire season, or that they even played the entire season without going down due to injury then of course you have consistency.

Man I wish I could tape the games from the net. Cause what I saw made me sick. Heitman was CONSISTENTLY giving up the PoA when we went to the IForm.

MM says he sucks in space? IForm is bunched there is NO space. So how in the hell can he be even serviceable as a Center? imho Heitmann should move over to RG. Because he doesn't have the tools to be a Center. Oh he's plenty smart enough but so am I. Does that make me a Center?

~Ceadder

Originally posted by Ceadderman:

Originally posted by PatrickJira411:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Another bad day for the Heitmann haters (which is so bizarre that I will never understand it).

Maiocco latest entry on the Niners' OL in 2009:
"Center Eric Heitmann was the team's most consistent offensive lineman. Playing that position is more cerebral than anything else, but Heitmann is one of the more physical centers in the game. He's not nearly as productive in space."
Heitmann's evaluation from Maiocco

Next, we will hear the same thing from Barrows, then the same thing from Sando, and then from the OC, just like last year.

So, if you are one of the four people on this board who have a bias against Heitmann, and are so blinded by your hatred for this player that you are determined to argue year-in, year-out that Heitmann is a problem for this team, it means you have zero knowledge of the game. Please list your names below. You may agree to this statement:
"I agree that I have become so biased against Eric Heitmann that even though year-in, year-out, he is determined to be one of the best, if not the best OL on this team by sportswriters, coaches, and fellow players who continue to name him team captain, that it doesn't matter. The earth is flat and the center of the solar system, dogs moo and cows bark, and Hilary Clinton is really controlled by aliens."

Just admit to the board that you do not know what you are talking about, and that no one should ever take your analysis seriously.

We'll see you next year, when you hope that nobody remembers this year, which was the same argument that you were humilated with last year.

Why would anyone continue to be humiliated year after year with an argument so pathetic?

Well saying he was one of the 49ers most consistant offensive lineman is not saying much when you consider Adam Snyder sucks(ed), Rachal was awful the first half of the season as was Baas who was playing hurt and Staley was basically out for the year after week 7. So basically Heitman was our most consistant o-lneman by default and he was consistant in getting driven back into the backfield when we most needed a yard and I don't know what MM was thinking in writing that Heitman is one of the league's most physical centers? Hmmm...

If Heitman was so great why did the team want to get Cody Wallace onto the field the last couple of games?

Most consistently awful maybe. I mean when you have a guy on the field for the entire season and nobody else can say they either played the same position the entire season, or that they even played the entire season without going down due to injury then of course you have consistency.

Man I wish I could tape the games from the net. Cause what I saw made me sick. Heitman was CONSISTENTLY giving up the PoA when we went to the IForm.

MM says he sucks in space? IForm is bunched there is NO space. So how in the hell can he be even serviceable as a Center? imho Heitmann should move over to RG. Because he doesn't have the tools to be a Center. Oh he's plenty smart enough but so am I. Does that make me a Center?

~Ceadder

Maddog talks like he knows what he is talking about! Ask him about Brooks? Our best pass rusher at LB who he thinks shouldnt even be in the NFL. I cant respect a guys opinion who can be so far off on player endorsements. He has zero credibility with me! Anyone who watched Brooks play could see he had something special when he was on the field. Just as anyone who watches Hymen play can see he has nothing special to offer when playing.