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Move David Baas to center

Every coach Heitmann has had, has a high opinion of him. That's in addtn to fellow and opposing players. But, I guess these far more knowledgeable 'Zoners know better. I can see disagreeing with the current regime, or his fellow players, or the opposing players, but ALL OF THEM? They're ALL wrong? Well , I guess he must really suck then.
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dj43:
A point about blitzes:

The development of the A/B gap blitz is a new tactic in the league. Steve Spagnuolo at NY was one of the early pioneers, along with Jim Johnson. It puts tremendous pressure on the middle of the OL by pushing through both gaps beside the center. In essence, it is a 4-on-3 scheme, and it has proven to be very effective. Executed well, it is unblockable. Not only does it result in a lot of sacks, it also puts hands in front of the QB and denies the quick hot release into the most preferred area - the area in which the QB is directly facing. Now the QB has to look to the wings for a release. We have seen the development of so many bubble screens to be a partial response to this middle blitz.

There are variations on it where the defense will line up as if to send both but then drop one back just at the snap. This requires great quickness by the center and guards, along with perfect understanding to make switches on the fly - there is no time to make verbal adjustments anymore.

This past season, most teams in the league added this scheme to their package, some of them during the season itself. Every offense in the league had trouble with it, including Indy. It was new and there was not the TC time to learn how to handle it.

The implications of this scheme will not only affect the time spent with the OL in training camp next season, but the choice of draft picks will be affected as well, especially at guard. If a college prospect does not have the quickness and footwork to adjust to this scheme, they will drop down in the draft. For that reason, I expect that the trend to huge bulldozer-type guards will reverse itself to the extent teams feel the need to get quicker, not bigger, at guard in the future.

As an adjunct; here is an area where losing Justin Smiley, a very quick guard, in favor of a couple of plodding bulldozers, is still hurting the 49ers.

I'm sure teams can make adjustments during the season to the A/B blitz. I'm not saying E. H. is the weak link on the line, but when there are that many breakdowns, the signal caller must take some blame. Those front 3 are all responsible for most of the sacks, not just the Guards. I just feel the Center gets hidden in a lot of plays. Baas and Rachal finished last year off very well, so I'm sure they didn't go from solid players to absolute idiots in one offseason.

Either way, we don't know what Pashos will give us but we do know that RT needs to be upgraded. Another thing we absolutely know is the middle three are potentially average at best but are performing below average.
I appreciate your thoughs. I didn't post about the A/B blitz packages to defend Heitmann. I am done with that portion of the discussion and will not get sucked back into it again.

My purpose in posting about this new tactic was two part, one, to note that every team has had a hard time blocking it because it is a very sound tactic, especially if the team has placed an emphasis on size, not quickness. Secondly, a part of the discussion of OL line improvement via FA or the draft, this issue of quickness, I believe, will be given more weight than in the past because of this blitz package.

Therefore, I believe, or should I say, hope, that McCloughan will value quickness in whoever he drafts over just size and bulk.

This is where I'm not sure if McCloughan is very good. He may be a good talent evaluator but he hasn't shown to really know his football conceptually in terms of the team. McCloughan also has that "big is better" mentality but I have rarely heard him in interviews breakdown the thing in the league and the adjustments we need to make to it.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dj43:
A point about blitzes:

The development of the A/B gap blitz is a new tactic in the league. Steve Spagnuolo at NY was one of the early pioneers, along with Jim Johnson. It puts tremendous pressure on the middle of the OL by pushing through both gaps beside the center. In essence, it is a 4-on-3 scheme, and it has proven to be very effective. Executed well, it is unblockable. Not only does it result in a lot of sacks, it also puts hands in front of the QB and denies the quick hot release into the most preferred area - the area in which the QB is directly facing. Now the QB has to look to the wings for a release. We have seen the development of so many bubble screens to be a partial response to this middle blitz.

There are variations on it where the defense will line up as if to send both but then drop one back just at the snap. This requires great quickness by the center and guards, along with perfect understanding to make switches on the fly - there is no time to make verbal adjustments anymore.

This past season, most teams in the league added this scheme to their package, some of them during the season itself. Every offense in the league had trouble with it, including Indy. It was new and there was not the TC time to learn how to handle it.

The implications of this scheme will not only affect the time spent with the OL in training camp next season, but the choice of draft picks will be affected as well, especially at guard. If a college prospect does not have the quickness and footwork to adjust to this scheme, they will drop down in the draft. For that reason, I expect that the trend to huge bulldozer-type guards will reverse itself to the extent teams feel the need to get quicker, not bigger, at guard in the future.

As an adjunct; here is an area where losing Justin Smiley, a very quick guard, in favor of a couple of plodding bulldozers, is still hurting the 49ers.

I'm sure teams can make adjustments during the season to the A/B blitz. I'm not saying E. H. is the weak link on the line, but when there are that many breakdowns, the signal caller must take some blame. Those front 3 are all responsible for most of the sacks, not just the Guards. I just feel the Center gets hidden in a lot of plays. Baas and Rachal finished last year off very well, so I'm sure they didn't go from solid players to absolute idiots in one offseason.

Either way, we don't know what Pashos will give us but we do know that RT needs to be upgraded. Another thing we absolutely know is the middle three are potentially average at best but are performing below average.
I appreciate your thoughs. I didn't post about the A/B blitz packages to defend Heitmann. I am done with that portion of the discussion and will not get sucked back into it again.

My purpose in posting about this new tactic was two part, one, to note that every team has had a hard time blocking it because it is a very sound tactic, especially if the team has placed an emphasis on size, not quickness. Secondly, a part of the discussion of OL line improvement via FA or the draft, this issue of quickness, I believe, will be given more weight than in the past because of this blitz package.

Therefore, I believe, or should I say, hope, that McCloughan will value quickness in whoever he drafts over just size and bulk.

This is where I'm not sure if McCloughan is very good. He may be a good talent evaluator but he hasn't shown to really know his football conceptually in terms of the team. McCloughan also has that "big is better" mentality but I have rarely heard him in interviews breakdown the thing in the league and the adjustments we need to make to it.
We agree. So let's give him a call and suggest a lunch meeting to bring him up to speed. Next Monday works for me. You?
[ Edited by dj43 on Jan 5, 2010 at 11:33 AM ]
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dj43:
A point about blitzes:

The development of the A/B gap blitz is a new tactic in the league. Steve Spagnuolo at NY was one of the early pioneers, along with Jim Johnson. It puts tremendous pressure on the middle of the OL by pushing through both gaps beside the center. In essence, it is a 4-on-3 scheme, and it has proven to be very effective. Executed well, it is unblockable. Not only does it result in a lot of sacks, it also puts hands in front of the QB and denies the quick hot release into the most preferred area - the area in which the QB is directly facing. Now the QB has to look to the wings for a release. We have seen the development of so many bubble screens to be a partial response to this middle blitz.

There are variations on it where the defense will line up as if to send both but then drop one back just at the snap. This requires great quickness by the center and guards, along with perfect understanding to make switches on the fly - there is no time to make verbal adjustments anymore.

This past season, most teams in the league added this scheme to their package, some of them during the season itself. Every offense in the league had trouble with it, including Indy. It was new and there was not the TC time to learn how to handle it.

The implications of this scheme will not only affect the time spent with the OL in training camp next season, but the choice of draft picks will be affected as well, especially at guard. If a college prospect does not have the quickness and footwork to adjust to this scheme, they will drop down in the draft. For that reason, I expect that the trend to huge bulldozer-type guards will reverse itself to the extent teams feel the need to get quicker, not bigger, at guard in the future.

As an adjunct; here is an area where losing Justin Smiley, a very quick guard, in favor of a couple of plodding bulldozers, is still hurting the 49ers.

I'm sure teams can make adjustments during the season to the A/B blitz. I'm not saying E. H. is the weak link on the line, but when there are that many breakdowns, the signal caller must take some blame. Those front 3 are all responsible for most of the sacks, not just the Guards. I just feel the Center gets hidden in a lot of plays. Baas and Rachal finished last year off very well, so I'm sure they didn't go from solid players to absolute idiots in one offseason.

Either way, we don't know what Pashos will give us but we do know that RT needs to be upgraded. Another thing we absolutely know is the middle three are potentially average at best but are performing below average.
I appreciate your thoughs. I didn't post about the A/B blitz packages to defend Heitmann. I am done with that portion of the discussion and will not get sucked back into it again.

My purpose in posting about this new tactic was two part, one, to note that every team has had a hard time blocking it because it is a very sound tactic, especially if the team has placed an emphasis on size, not quickness. Secondly, a part of the discussion of OL line improvement via FA or the draft, this issue of quickness, I believe, will be given more weight than in the past because of this blitz package.

Therefore, I believe, or should I say, hope, that McCloughan will value quickness in whoever he drafts over just size and bulk.

This is where I'm not sure if McCloughan is very good. He may be a good talent evaluator but he hasn't shown to really know his football conceptually in terms of the team. McCloughan also has that "big is better" mentality but I have rarely heard him in interviews breakdown the thing in the league and the adjustments we need to make to it.
We agree. So let's give him a call and suggest a lunch meeting to bring him up to speed. Next Monday works for me. You?



I'm sure this draft will be a make or break year for McCloughan.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dj43:
A point about blitzes:

The development of the A/B gap blitz is a new tactic in the league. Steve Spagnuolo at NY was one of the early pioneers, along with Jim Johnson. It puts tremendous pressure on the middle of the OL by pushing through both gaps beside the center. In essence, it is a 4-on-3 scheme, and it has proven to be very effective. Executed well, it is unblockable. Not only does it result in a lot of sacks, it also puts hands in front of the QB and denies the quick hot release into the most preferred area - the area in which the QB is directly facing. Now the QB has to look to the wings for a release. We have seen the development of so many bubble screens to be a partial response to this middle blitz.

There are variations on it where the defense will line up as if to send both but then drop one back just at the snap. This requires great quickness by the center and guards, along with perfect understanding to make switches on the fly - there is no time to make verbal adjustments anymore.

This past season, most teams in the league added this scheme to their package, some of them during the season itself. Every offense in the league had trouble with it, including Indy. It was new and there was not the TC time to learn how to handle it.

The implications of this scheme will not only affect the time spent with the OL in training camp next season, but the choice of draft picks will be affected as well, especially at guard. If a college prospect does not have the quickness and footwork to adjust to this scheme, they will drop down in the draft. For that reason, I expect that the trend to huge bulldozer-type guards will reverse itself to the extent teams feel the need to get quicker, not bigger, at guard in the future.

As an adjunct; here is an area where losing Justin Smiley, a very quick guard, in favor of a couple of plodding bulldozers, is still hurting the 49ers.

I'm sure teams can make adjustments during the season to the A/B blitz. I'm not saying E. H. is the weak link on the line, but when there are that many breakdowns, the signal caller must take some blame. Those front 3 are all responsible for most of the sacks, not just the Guards. I just feel the Center gets hidden in a lot of plays. Baas and Rachal finished last year off very well, so I'm sure they didn't go from solid players to absolute idiots in one offseason.

Either way, we don't know what Pashos will give us but we do know that RT needs to be upgraded. Another thing we absolutely know is the middle three are potentially average at best but are performing below average.
I appreciate your thoughs. I didn't post about the A/B blitz packages to defend Heitmann. I am done with that portion of the discussion and will not get sucked back into it again.

My purpose in posting about this new tactic was two part, one, to note that every team has had a hard time blocking it because it is a very sound tactic, especially if the team has placed an emphasis on size, not quickness. Secondly, a part of the discussion of OL line improvement via FA or the draft, this issue of quickness, I believe, will be given more weight than in the past because of this blitz package.

Therefore, I believe, or should I say, hope, that McCloughan will value quickness in whoever he drafts over just size and bulk.

This is where I'm not sure if McCloughan is very good. He may be a good talent evaluator but he hasn't shown to really know his football conceptually in terms of the team. McCloughan also has that "big is better" mentality but I have rarely heard him in interviews breakdown the thing in the league and the adjustments we need to make to it.

I don't know if I can definitively say this is a talent issue. The OL coaching over the past few years save one season when Norv Turner helped has been dubious at best. Warhop being replaced by Foerster just isn't an upgrade.
Heitman just needs to work on his strength, he gets pushed back way too often to be playing center. He does have good technique it looks like, he just isn't strong enough.
You're out to lunch if you think that Bass is better than Heitmann, absolutely out to lunch.

Heitmann was the team's best O-lineman last year.
Erick Hetimanimann does fine at the OC.

He can hold the point of the pocket but the guards at this point make it collapse narrower than a virgin vagina.
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dj43:
A point about blitzes:

The development of the A/B gap blitz is a new tactic in the league. Steve Spagnuolo at NY was one of the early pioneers, along with Jim Johnson. It puts tremendous pressure on the middle of the OL by pushing through both gaps beside the center. In essence, it is a 4-on-3 scheme, and it has proven to be very effective. Executed well, it is unblockable. Not only does it result in a lot of sacks, it also puts hands in front of the QB and denies the quick hot release into the most preferred area - the area in which the QB is directly facing. Now the QB has to look to the wings for a release. We have seen the development of so many bubble screens to be a partial response to this middle blitz.

There are variations on it where the defense will line up as if to send both but then drop one back just at the snap. This requires great quickness by the center and guards, along with perfect understanding to make switches on the fly - there is no time to make verbal adjustments anymore.

This past season, most teams in the league added this scheme to their package, some of them during the season itself. Every offense in the league had trouble with it, including Indy. It was new and there was not the TC time to learn how to handle it.

The implications of this scheme will not only affect the time spent with the OL in training camp next season, but the choice of draft picks will be affected as well, especially at guard. If a college prospect does not have the quickness and footwork to adjust to this scheme, they will drop down in the draft. For that reason, I expect that the trend to huge bulldozer-type guards will reverse itself to the extent teams feel the need to get quicker, not bigger, at guard in the future.

As an adjunct; here is an area where losing Justin Smiley, a very quick guard, in favor of a couple of plodding bulldozers, is still hurting the 49ers.

I'm sure teams can make adjustments during the season to the A/B blitz. I'm not saying E. H. is the weak link on the line, but when there are that many breakdowns, the signal caller must take some blame. Those front 3 are all responsible for most of the sacks, not just the Guards. I just feel the Center gets hidden in a lot of plays. Baas and Rachal finished last year off very well, so I'm sure they didn't go from solid players to absolute idiots in one offseason.

Either way, we don't know what Pashos will give us but we do know that RT needs to be upgraded. Another thing we absolutely know is the middle three are potentially average at best but are performing below average.
I appreciate your thoughs. I didn't post about the A/B blitz packages to defend Heitmann. I am done with that portion of the discussion and will not get sucked back into it again.

My purpose in posting about this new tactic was two part, one, to note that every team has had a hard time blocking it because it is a very sound tactic, especially if the team has placed an emphasis on size, not quickness. Secondly, a part of the discussion of OL line improvement via FA or the draft, this issue of quickness, I believe, will be given more weight than in the past because of this blitz package.

Therefore, I believe, or should I say, hope, that McCloughan will value quickness in whoever he drafts over just size and bulk.

This is where I'm not sure if McCloughan is very good. He may be a good talent evaluator but he hasn't shown to really know his football conceptually in terms of the team. McCloughan also has that "big is better" mentality but I have rarely heard him in interviews breakdown the thing in the league and the adjustments we need to make to it.

I don't know if I can definitively say this is a talent issue. The OL coaching over the past few years save one season when Norv Turner helped has been dubious at best. Warhop being replaced by Foerster just isn't an upgrade.

Not more-so a talent issue but the correct talent issue. Of course a top OL is talented enough to fit in just about any offense, but when we are getting them in the 2nd to 4th rounds, then you have to consider the concept of the blocking AND what the new stuff being used around the league such as the A/B dj mentions. He must consider that more teams will be implementing this and maybe we need quicker lineman rather than behemoths.

Let's say a guy like Holmgren will consider the details of what's involved for an OL in his offense whereas McCloughan will go with the bigger guy. Look at Parcells, he was quick to acquire Smiley because of Smiley's overall contribution and ability.
Originally posted by Bluefalcon61:
Erick Hetimanimann does fine at the OC.

He can hold the point of the pocket but the guards at this point make it collapse narrower than a virgin vagina.

You've been away too long.

That is a unique but descriptive way of putting it, although it has been many years since I've done any qualitative analysis. However, from memory, I think the analogy works.
Originally posted by 4evrfan:
Every coach Heitmann has had, has a high opinion of him. That's in addtn to fellow and opposing players. But, I guess these far more knowledgeable 'Zoners know better. I can see disagreeing with the current regime, or his fellow players, or the opposing players, but ALL OF THEM? They're ALL wrong? Well , I guess he must really suck then.

Every coach that has been with Alex Smith has said the same thing about him. But that doesnt stop him from getting bashed on this board. What are the coaches supposed to say? They arent just going to put their players on blast to the media.
Baas is a vagina. His feet are slow, he has a really weak hand punch out of his stance, he has marginal leg drive, and he rarely makes it to the second level.

Heitmann is solid, if unspectacular. He's one of our best linemen, and he's far more of a starter than Bass.
Originally posted by Legbreaker:
Baas is a vagina. His feet are slow, he has a really weak hand punch out of his stance, he has marginal leg drive, and he rarely makes it to the second level.

Heitmann is solid, if unspectacular. He's one of our best linemen, and he's far more of a starter than Bass.

Stack Heitman up against other NFL centers and where do you rank him?
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Any person who think that Heitmann has not played well the past two years doesn't understand the first thing about football. Sorry, but this is not even an area for debate. He was our best lineman now the past two years.

Next subject: Move McKillop into the starting lineup and replace Patrick Willis.

P.S. Replace our best lineman for David Baas? Scary.

MadDog ftw. Lock this thread.
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Heitman just needs to work on his strength, he gets pushed back way too often to be playing center. He does have good technique it looks like, he just isn't strong enough.


I just don't think he has the frame to add more muscle and he has short arms plus I think he lost a lot of his push off strength when he broke his leg late in the 2006 season. Im not sure he ever really recoverd from that.