Disapointed in our defense

Originally posted by Cuphalffull:
Do you not see a correlation between our D’s production and how our offense has performed? Look in that games that our O has played well (early in the season) moving the ball and controlling the clock the D was ranked in the top 10. Now, our offense becomes anemic (Atlanta and 1st half of Houston) and our D looks pathetic.

The defense isn't the offense and vis-versa. And you can find times where the offense stalled, but the defense gave it back to them.

Recently the defense has failed. Why expect it to be different against Indy, a legit playoff team?

Originally posted by Cuphalffull:
I am not saying that our D is great or even top 10.

They're ranked 14th.

Originally posted by Cuphalffull:

the O produced giving our D a chance to perform.

That goes under the heading of - so what?

The O plays or doesn't play, the defense is expected to give them the ball and not let the opponent score. It's certainly not rocket science.

And we've seen the same problems with 49ers D for years, now.

Originally posted by Cuphalffull:

I am holding my judgment to see if our O can produce

I hope they can, too. But Indy now knows Smith is starting. They know they have to take Crabtree into their plans. So there is no surprising a good playoff team.

It'll be up to the D, I think, to stop them.

I hope they can, too.

BTW, Roman played not too bad.

First of all, our D has been what's keeping us in these games due to an extremely anemic offense. Do we still have some holes? Sure, but don't lay it where it doesn't belong. And that TD off the muffed punt by Battle? I'm surprised no one has made an issue of that Texan practically tackling Willis as he went for the ballcarrier. That should not have been a TD, but a holding call! Who's to say if they would have scored if the penalty was called. If they only got a field goal from it, then we win! I was furious since it was an obvious grab byy the offensive player. The announcers even replayed it and still didn't comment on the flagrant penalty! Oh well. Anyway, yes the defense has it's problems, but lay the bulk of the blame where it belongs; the offense.

Originally posted by PatrickWillisHOF:
So we all said that Atlanta game was just "one of those bad games that happen every once in a while". Well what happened today? I know that our offense was not producing in the first half, but our offense has struggled all season and our Defense kept us in the game. When we needed to make a key stop today, it didnt happen. For example, look at one of the Texans last drives. We had them at their own 15 and they complete a bomb to Andre Johnson, which later sets up a field goal. WHEN WE NEEDED THEM TO STEP UP AND MAKE A PLAY, IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

Aren't you kind of picking and choosing here? Yes, the defense could have played better but this was nothing like the Atlanta game. The offense provided no help in the first half. The defense had forced a punt when Battle muffed the punt and the Texans took over at the 11 yard line. They held Johnson to 2 catches, including the long pass you reference which was a very good catch on his part but the DBs were there. He just made a better play. In the 2nd half, they gave up only a FG when the offense did their part. They also give up just 3.3 yards per carry rushing.

The two things you could criticize them for were: (1) most of the big plays the Texas got throwing the ball were the instances when they didn't get pressure. They got pressure in spurts but it wasn't consistent; and (2) it would have been nice if they could have stopped the Texans on a 3 and out and gotten the ball back to Smith in better field position and with more time on the clock. The first downs they gave up hurt, though the Texans helped out a bit by running out of bounds once and throwing the incomplete pass right before the punt.

They need to be better but it wasn't Atlanta all over again.

Originally posted by dust-7:

Originally posted by Cuphalffull:
Do you not see a correlation between our D’s production and how our offense has performed? Look in that games that our O has played well (early in the season) moving the ball and controlling the clock the D was ranked in the top 10. Now, our offense becomes anemic (Atlanta and 1st half of Houston) and our D looks pathetic.

Recently the defense has failed. Why expect it to be different against Indy, a legit playoff team?

Originally posted by Cuphalffull:

the O produced giving our D a chance to perform.

That goes under the heading of - so what?

The O plays or doesn't play, the defense is expected to give them the ball and not let the opponent score. It's certainly not rocket science.

And we've seen the same problems with 49ers D for years, now.

I'm not really sure what you expect from our or any D. Teams will score on them, it happens, its a game. Your complete incompetence when it comes to this argument is very troubling. How do you expect the team to win if the D gives the ball to the O and they don't score with it....like in the first half? You keep blaming the D all the time because a team scores on them, you have no idea what you are talking about. Why don't you blame the O for not scoring on every drive? I still dont get how you blame the D every week.

I guess you think the D should shut out every team and then they will be doing their job?

Originally posted by 49erfourlife:

Originally posted by PatrickWillisHOF:
So we all said that Atlanta game was just "one of those bad games that happen every once in a while". Well what happened today? I know that our offense was not producing in the first half, but our offense has struggled all season and our Defense kept us in the game. When we needed to make a key stop today, it didnt happen. For example, look at one of the Texans last drives. We had them at their own 15 and they complete a bomb to Andre Johnson, which later sets up a field goal. WHEN WE NEEDED THEM TO STEP UP AND MAKE A PLAY, IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

Again ...someone who didn't watch the game...wtf can the defense do when the others team offense has a starting field position @ the 50 yard line !!! Not to mention a muffed punt inside your own 10 yard line !!!! are you freakin kidding me ???!!! Please have a clue before you post... We held them to just 3 pts second half !!!! Held Andre Johnson to 67 yards !!! These post are starting to get really pathetic !!!

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Originally posted by Eduardo75:
The defense shows it true colors when we play good offensive teams...

The 49er defense is like the best defense in the NFL on 1st and 2nd down.. And the absolute worst on 3rd downs or whenever a stop is vital...

NT and LDE even though Ice and Franklin are playing better was not upgraded, cause better can be had.. We could have made a better play for players like Igor from the Chargers who went to Dallas or Canty who went to N.Y. Last year could have made some type of play or even inquiry for Jason Ferguson who is in Miami now.. Even Ronald Fields who we let go, is doing pretty good over in Denver.. Thanks Nolan for waiting till then to get something out of him.. Could have drafted Phillip Merling, we took Kentwan Balmer... Could have taken Kenny Phillips and had are FS position set, nope we took Balmer.. Hell, we took Rashaun Woods back in the day trading down all the way to 31, when we could have taken Wolfork at 15...

And we still don't have a pass rusher...

We do not have the tools to be a great defense.. Sure we are great against the Rams.. And we always play AZ tuff, but, Atlanta, Houston and probably Indy exposes our defense for what it really is.. Bad! With the exception of a few players....

It's like nobody since Walsh has been able to really put anything together...

We are still looking for another Haley.. Never have been able to replace that guy...

We just don't have the tools, and it doesn't seem our scouting department has the tools either....

I agree! We are missing that dominant NT. Franklin is OK but still was 13th against the run coming in to this game. Our OLB's, well, I don't need to go over that again.

But there are three things that really bother me about this defense that I have been saying for a while:
1. Scheme - against good coaches, we are almost ALWAYS out-coached and I don't see Manusky's scheme playing to our strengths
2. We are TERRIBLE in coverage in the middle of the field and yes people, that even includes Willis
3. We are TERRIBLE in short yardage defense esp. around the goal line

You already mentioned the 3rd down defense. I don't buy the "it's the offenses excuse" either b/c the reverse could be said. If the defense, like all the great defenses, can get off the field on 3rd downs and produce turnovers and generate stops, the OFFENSE gets the ball more and has more chances to develop a rhythm. They are mutually exclusive and it's a very weak argument.

We played one of the best offenses in the NFL and held them to 24 points. 7 of those points came from a drive they started on OUR 10 yard line.

Not a bad day.

Originally posted by Conejo:
the bomb to Andre was an excellent throw and an even better catch

one of Houston's TD's came on a short drive as a result of the Battle muffed punt

they only allowed 3 pts in the 2nd half

I'm not disappointed in them after this game. They shut down the run except for that late Slaton run, had decent pressure on the qb (couple of sacks, coverage ones I believe), and were facing one of the top passing offenses in the league.

1st half: our offense is barely on the field making our defense be out there and get tired quickly; 2nd half: our offense puts together nice drives and our defense responds.


Nope, I'll still put the blame on our anemic 1st half offense, and I'm primarily talking about our O-line and playcalling, and Shaun as the secondary blame-receiver

I agree completely that having our defense out on the field the entire first half killed our guys. I actually fully blame this loss on Battles muffed punt return. You just can't stop the offense and then give them the ball back 50 yards down the field the next play. We win that game without that play.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Eduardo75:
The defense shows it true colors when we play good offensive teams...

The 49er defense is like the best defense in the NFL on 1st and 2nd down.. And the absolute worst on 3rd downs or whenever a stop is vital...

NT and LDE even though Ice and Franklin are playing better was not upgraded, cause better can be had.. We could have made a better play for players like Igor from the Chargers who went to Dallas or Canty who went to N.Y. Last year could have made some type of play or even inquiry for Jason Ferguson who is in Miami now.. Even Ronald Fields who we let go, is doing pretty good over in Denver.. Thanks Nolan for waiting till then to get something out of him.. Could have drafted Phillip Merling, we took Kentwan Balmer... Could have taken Kenny Phillips and had are FS position set, nope we took Balmer.. Hell, we took Rashaun Woods back in the day trading down all the way to 31, when we could have taken Wolfork at 15...

And we still don't have a pass rusher...

We do not have the tools to be a great defense.. Sure we are great against the Rams.. And we always play AZ tuff, but, Atlanta, Houston and probably Indy exposes our defense for what it really is.. Bad! With the exception of a few players....

It's like nobody since Walsh has been able to really put anything together...

We are still looking for another Haley.. Never have been able to replace that guy...

We just don't have the tools, and it doesn't seem our scouting department has the tools either....

I agree! We are missing that dominant NT. Franklin is OK but still was 13th against the run coming in to this game. Our OLB's, well, I don't need to go over that again.

But there are three things that really bother me about this defense that I have been saying for a while:
1. Scheme - against good coaches, we are almost ALWAYS out-coached and I don't see Manusky's scheme playing to our strengths
2. We are TERRIBLE in coverage in the middle of the field and yes people, that even includes Willis
3. We are TERRIBLE in short yardage defense esp. around the goal line

You already mentioned the 3rd down defense. I don't buy the "it's the offenses excuse" either b/c the reverse could be said. If the defense, like all the great defenses, can get off the field on 3rd downs and produce turnovers and generate stops, the OFFENSE gets the ball more and has more chances to develop a rhythm. They are mutually exclusive and it's a very weak argument.

Explain to me why it is that when our O performs, our D has looked good. The reality is that our D does need some work but if an O goes 3 and out over and over, the other team is going to at a minimum win the field position battle capitalize at least once if they are not very good and more if they are good. If both your O and the D are bad, then you have the Rams.

Come on, while the D did not play great, they played much better in the second half giving the O the opportunity to score 3 tds and allowing only 3 points. One could easily argue that each playing well made the other look better. The O playing bad puts the other team in better field position and puts them in a better position to score. How is that a weak argument?

Our D didn't play as bad as the score shows, they gave up a couple of big plays, but that's to be expected when you go up against that explosive Texans offense. There were many holding calls that stood out and weren't called, especially on Slatons second touchdown run, were Willis got tackled by the RT.

We had some 3 and outs, we brought good pressure on half of Schaub's throws, and stopped their run; we did some good things.

If anything our secondary was disappointing, and the calls at times.

Our inconsistent pass rush is going to kill us against Indy, GB, Chicago, and Arizona. All of those QB's have errant throws when under pressure, but will make you look horrible with no pressure... While I would not say that I am disappointed, I am losing optimism about the rest of the season...

Originally posted by Cuphalffull:
Explain to me why it is that when our O performs, our D has looked good. The reality is that our D does need some work but if an O goes 3 and out over and over, the other team is going to at a minimum win the field position battle capitalize at least once if they are not very good and more if they are good. If both your O and the D are bad, then you have the Rams.

Come on, while the D did not play great, they played much better in the second half giving the O the opportunity to score 3 tds and allowing only 3 points. One could easily argue that each playing well made the other look better. The O playing bad puts the other team in better field position and puts them in a better position to score. How is that a weak argument?

How? B/c players are human. There are psychological effects. When the offense is playing well, they get more motivated and play off emotion and often times, perform better, ala the second half. But the reverse is true too. When the defense is playing very well and producing lots of 3-and-outs and even scoring points, the offense can build on that, play with confidence and even start opening it up like what we saw with Raye/Smith yesterday. We had nothing to lose. In short, you proved my point. The offense and defense are mutually exclusive. But to IGNORE the defenses constant and predictable deficiences just b/c they are a little more talented then the offense is equally offensive. We have just as many holes on defense as we do on offense - the difference is that we've spent a truck load more money and draft picks on the defense and they have played more together as a collective group under ONE scheme longer now.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Cuphalffull:
Explain to me why it is that when our O performs, our D has looked good. The reality is that our D does need some work but if an O goes 3 and out over and over, the other team is going to at a minimum win the field position battle capitalize at least once if they are not very good and more if they are good. If both your O and the D are bad, then you have the Rams.

Come on, while the D did not play great, they played much better in the second half giving the O the opportunity to score 3 tds and allowing only 3 points. One could easily argue that each playing well made the other look better. The O playing bad puts the other team in better field position and puts them in a better position to score. How is that a weak argument?

How? B/c players are human. There are psychological effects. When the offense is playing well, they get more motivated and play off emotion and often times, perform better, ala the second half. But the reverse is true too. When the defense is playing very well and producing lots of 3-and-outs and even scoring points, the offense can build on that, play with confidence and even start opening it up like what we saw with Raye/Smith yesterday. We had nothing to lose. In short, you proved my point. The offense and defense are mutually exclusive. But to IGNORE the defenses constant and predictable deficiences just b/c they are a little more talented then the offense is equally offensive. We have just as many holes on defense as we do on offense - the difference is that we've spent a truck load more money and draft picks on the defense and they have played more together as a collective group under ONE scheme longer now.

Where did I say that I was ignoring the constant and predictable deficiencies of our D? I have said that our defense has some problems, but I also believe that those problems are magnified by the fact that our O has been so anemic. The more a team is allowed the opportunity to exploit ones deficiencies, the more likely it will happen. The more 3 and out an offense has; the worse the field position, the more fatigued the D, and the more opportunities for the opposing O to capitalize. How can you not agree that when a defense regularly has its back against the wall because of the offense’s lack of production that is not totally on the D.?

Originally posted by PatrickWillisHOF:
So we all said that Atlanta game was just "one of those bad games that happen every once in a while". Well what happened today? I know that our offense was not producing in the first half, but our offense has struggled all season and our Defense kept us in the game. When we needed to make a key stop today, it didnt happen. For example, look at one of the Texans last drives. We had them at their own 15 and they complete a bomb to Andre Johnson, which later sets up a field goal. WHEN WE NEEDED THEM TO STEP UP AND MAKE A PLAY, IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

They did get off the field, battle dropped the ball. You can't expect your defense to cover for both offensive and special teams mistakes without a few of there own...