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West Coast Offense for Hill.....

Originally posted by Afrikan:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by dirtysouthniner:
Originally posted by jones49:
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Just what kind of strengths does Hill possess? Gamer doesn't get it done, you have to actually have some physical abilities to work with. Pocket presence and accuracy were supposedly his strengths heading into this year, but so far he has lacked in both. He has the freedom to audible from run/pass or from pass.run, but I have yet to see him actually use this freedom to help move the chains. Teams have figured out that they can run blitz and make us a one dimensional team and put the pressure on Hill, and the Falcons made it work. I am by no means going to blame last week on Hill, I think the offensive line was the biggest culprit, but Hill was as bad as last year against the Rams, who exposed Hill's weaknesses.

He's an accurate passer in his comfort zone. He's not going to complete the 30 yard bomb on a deep post, but he'll squeeze in a good throw on a quick slant. Prime example: when we were down 14-10 this past week, driving inside the Falcons 40. 2nd and 5.....Hill squeezed a pretty good ball to Bruce on a quick slant. Bruce dropped it...Hill gets sacked next play......Niners punt.......results in 90 yard TD by White.

Hill has strengths..we just need to call more plays for him, instead of putting him in position to make a play he cannot make........

Your not wrong. He is accurate, is tough, a good leader and pretty consistant (consistanty ok), but hes wat too limited to to run an entire offense based on is srengths. Its not like hes the future, hes just in there temporarily.

It's amazing how people can just believe this team wins by accident with Hill as the starter. Two years ago we were having a terrible season but Hill comes in and wins us two games. Last year we are again having a terrible season and Hill comes in and wins. Hill starts out this season and wins. Yet some how the winning is coincidence. I don't know if everyone understands how hard it is to win in the NFL but I know it doesn't happen by accident.

He wasn't winning by accident, the team was playing harder and there were changes made along the line. After Nolan was canned the defense went from 26th to 13th, we won more games because of the defense mainly. Last year Hill has 16 turnovers (8 fumbles 8 picks) and 13 td's, his completion % has steadily declined in each of the three seasons he has played in. This team wins because of defense, the defense plays good and we win, it sucks and we lose. The best thing about Hill this year is he has kept his turnovers down. Other than that, he has been pretty unimpressive.

last year the defense improved because they got to rest....mainly because of Hill and his dink and dunks and converting 3rd downs.

I agree that was part of it, but we were still near last in the league in third down conversions.
Originally posted by dirtysouthniner:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by dirtysouthniner:
Originally posted by jones49:
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Just what kind of strengths does Hill possess? Gamer doesn't get it done, you have to actually have some physical abilities to work with. Pocket presence and accuracy were supposedly his strengths heading into this year, but so far he has lacked in both. He has the freedom to audible from run/pass or from pass.run, but I have yet to see him actually use this freedom to help move the chains. Teams have figured out that they can run blitz and make us a one dimensional team and put the pressure on Hill, and the Falcons made it work. I am by no means going to blame last week on Hill, I think the offensive line was the biggest culprit, but Hill was as bad as last year against the Rams, who exposed Hill's weaknesses.

He's an accurate passer in his comfort zone. He's not going to complete the 30 yard bomb on a deep post, but he'll squeeze in a good throw on a quick slant. Prime example: when we were down 14-10 this past week, driving inside the Falcons 40. 2nd and 5.....Hill squeezed a pretty good ball to Bruce on a quick slant. Bruce dropped it...Hill gets sacked next play......Niners punt.......results in 90 yard TD by White.

Hill has strengths..we just need to call more plays for him, instead of putting him in position to make a play he cannot make........

Your not wrong. He is accurate, is tough, a good leader and pretty consistant (consistanty ok), but hes wat too limited to to run an entire offense based on is srengths. Its not like hes the future, hes just in there temporarily.

It's amazing how people can just believe this team wins by accident with Hill as the starter. Two years ago we were having a terrible season but Hill comes in and wins us two games. Last year we are again having a terrible season and Hill comes in and wins. Hill starts out this season and wins. Yet some how the winning is coincidence. I don't know if everyone understands how hard it is to win in the NFL but I know it doesn't happen by accident.

He wasn't winning by accident, the team was playing harder and there were changes made along the line. After Nolan was canned the defense went from 26th to 13th, we won more games because of the defense mainly. Last year Hill has 16 turnovers (8 fumbles 8 picks) and 13 td's, his completion % has steadily declined in each of the three seasons he has played in. This team wins because of defense, the defense plays good and we win, it sucks and we lose. The best thing about Hill this year is he has kept his turnovers down. Other than that, he has been pretty unimpressive.

If you're saying that Hill isn't the future than I am with you. But he is the best we got. Garcia was run out of town because he didn't look good winning either.

He is doing his best to convince me otherwise so far.
I hope no one has given up on Hill. He isn't a pro bowler, but he is serviceable. I like your idea of the WCO. I think he would fit well in that offense. Garcia has a different game, although, he couldn't throw deep either. The WCO offense helped hide some of his flaws, and maybe the same will be done with Hill. Of course this will never happen though.
Originally posted by sacniner:
I hope no one has given up on Hill. He isn't a pro bowler, but he is serviceable. I like your idea of the WCO. I think he would fit well in that offense. Garcia has a different game, although, he couldn't throw deep either. The WCO offense helped hide some of his flaws, and maybe the same will be done with Hill. Of course this will never happen though.

Garcia could throw a spiral, did a much better job moving around in the pocket, had better presence in the pocket, was more accurate, and most importantly, he threw the ball to the receivers. Hill < Garcia.
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by sacniner:
I hope no one has given up on Hill. He isn't a pro bowler, but he is serviceable. I like your idea of the WCO. I think he would fit well in that offense. Garcia has a different game, although, he couldn't throw deep either. The WCO offense helped hide some of his flaws, and maybe the same will be done with Hill. Of course this will never happen though.

Garcia could throw a spiral, did a much better job moving around in the pocket, had better presence in the pocket, was more accurate, and most importantly, he threw the ball to the receivers. Hill < Garcia.

I agree, Garcia was better. I didn't say Hill is better. But I think the WCO could hide Hill's biggest flaw, his arm strength. The WCO helped Garcia's game a lot. And, Garcia did have TO in his prime. That helped a lot.
steve youngs arm was WAY better than shauns. but you do make a valid point. they need to work to his strengths. short, quick passes, an imaginative running game would help, jimmy raye has no concept of a sweep or RB screen, draw, draw, draw, draw... all day. singletary is a football guy, he knows changes have to be made and i think he will make them
Originally posted by sacniner:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by sacniner:
I hope no one has given up on Hill. He isn't a pro bowler, but he is serviceable. I like your idea of the WCO. I think he would fit well in that offense. Garcia has a different game, although, he couldn't throw deep either. The WCO offense helped hide some of his flaws, and maybe the same will be done with Hill. Of course this will never happen though.

Garcia could throw a spiral, did a much better job moving around in the pocket, had better presence in the pocket, was more accurate, and most importantly, he threw the ball to the receivers. Hill < Garcia.

I agree, Garcia was better. I didn't say Hill is better. But I think the WCO could hide Hill's biggest flaw, his arm strength. The WCO helped Garcia's game a lot. And, Garcia did have TO in his prime. That helped a lot.

at the end of his career with the 49ers Garcia really struggled.... teams adjusted to him...but he did not adjust back....

defenses gave up trying to over rush him and kept him in the pocket and forced him to throw from the pocket.....they even had a DT drop back and spy him every now and then...just so he didn't step up and run or do his jump pass.......

then what happened was Garcia had trouble throwing from the pocket and would bump into his own lineman trying to run out of the pocket and try to make a play.....he also threw alot of passes out of bounce....... that is why Rattay replaced him during the season and stayed as starter....when he came in, Rattay showed the ability to throw from with in the pocket and made quick reads and also had great touch on his deep passes.

Garcia left and struggled (Browns)......then went to Philli and did fine...and did fine in Tampa.....but when we played him this preseason, I saw he still had the same tendencies...and struggled against us....he even threw a pass that dropped, literally, 5 yards before reaching the receiver.

that is one of the main reasons why I did not want him back here.....and one of the main reason I had problems with Alex a couple of years back, they were playing very similar.

[ Edited by Afrikan on Oct 13, 2009 at 20:50:18 ]
Thats all nice and dandy and the WCO is probably the best offense to fit hin, problem is we are not installing the WCO mid season. We are going to have to deal with the players we have and hope the play calling improves and the offense starts showing signs of cohesiveness.
"Give Hill plenty of screens, slants, short out patterns. "

I like this idea. More shorter routes to compliment Hill's passing style and comfort zone. We need better receivers though. Davis has been our only threat.
Makes sense, actually a lot of sense. Unfortunately, that's not this coaching staff's philosophy, and we don't have an intelligent enough of an OC to make WCO style adjustments.
  • ZRF80
  • Member
  • Posts: 13,551
Originally posted by WillistheWall:
Originally posted by ZRF80:
I know, I know.......Im dreaming.

It's the absolute opposite of what Sing is preaching to this young team. But somewhere along the line you have to mold your offense to the team's strengths. Is the running game a strength ? Sure. But with an oft-injured Gore, and a rookie backup still trying to find his game (not to mention the loss of Sheets), maybe it's time we DONT rely solely on Gore's legs to carry us to victory.

Which leaves us to Shaun Hill, and more specifically to Shaun Hill's arm. It's no mystery that the guy cannot throw deep. His comfort zone is between the 5-15 yard pass; he'll even give you a decent 20 yarder every now and then. But anything beyond that is outside his realm, which is a-ok, because thats exactly what we had with guys like Young and Garcia. So what do you do to solve this issue ?

You eliminate the 3rd and longs. Why keep running up the middle and force a long 3rd down conversion, when you you know your QB will have to make a play outside his comfort zone ? Why not "tune in" to his strengths and put him in a situation where he's 3rd and 5 (or less), and can actually squeeze a decent ball into coverage ? Especially when you know you're running game will falter because the opposition will adjust to Gore. There are a few articles out that claim that teams like Minn. and Atlanta actually adjusted their defenses to make SF one-dimensional. And when Hill was forced to throw outside his 5-15 yard zone, he botched.

The definite answer here would be to revert to a WCO type scheme. Give Hill plenty of screens, slants, short out patterns. A weak o-line means a weak pocket. Give the man some roll-outs (he's proven he can pass on the run), scrambles, etc.

Keep the defense honest, instead of succumbing to the typical "stand inside the pocket and die" mentality that Raye has implemented. I know Sing is hard headed, and he probably thinks a single change in the o-line (take Chilo out) and a semi-healthy Gore will be enough to go back to run, run, and more run. But unless we play to Hill's strengths, this offense will remain anemic and we will rely solely on our defense/ST to win. And that my friends is a no-no, especially with teams like Indy and GB coming up in the next month.

A lot of you guys have given up on Hill based on this season's play. But keep in mind that this was the SAME Hill who looked brilliant in Martz's offense, and even looked semi-good in Hostler's offense. The man has proven he can move the chains and put up some points, if given the right conditions. And sure, it sucks that he's no Brady and/or a Manning and cannot adjust to the game (he needs the game adjusted to him), but hey......thats all what got for now, and it wouldnt hurt to make things easier for him, especially with our o-line and receiving corp.



I hope Sing/Raye use these 2 weeks wisely.

LOL YOU DID NOT JUST COMPARE SHAUN HILL TO STEVE YOUNG. That's an insult to a former MVP, Superbowl champion, superbowl MVP, NFL leader in passer rating, etc. Come on man that's a joke. Young had a WAY better arm than Hill. Garcia's wasn't great but his was better too. But young actually had a good arm. Hill doesn't. He's not as mobile as Steve. That comparison is a joke. Young was a Brady/Manning type of player, not a Garcia and DEFINITELY not a Hill.

I knew people loved Shaun Hill but I never knew they loved him THIS much. And the WCO wouldn't even work for him because you have to go deep nowadays atleast once or twice per game to keep the defense honest. Just look at McNabb and Philly who uses the WCO but they got burners like Maclin and Jackson because they needed to stretch the field.


I never said Shaun Hill's quarterbacking ability was comparable to Steve Young's. And besides you, I dont think anyone interpeted my post in that sense. All I said was that Young didnt have the strongest arm in the world either. Nor was he known for putting zip on his passes. What he was good for, however, was playing smart football. Limiting turnovers, taking advantage of short routes turned big by YACs. Shaun Hill has a similar game. He is accurate; maybe not as accurate as Young or Garcia, but nonetheless he limits the turnover percentage. Why not call plays that he can execute, rather than hope that he will thread the needle between 2 defenders on a seam route. It just doesnt make sense, and the only reason he even ends up in that position is because our OC calls 2 lame draws up the middle equating for 1-2 yards, thus forcing Hill to convert on 3rd and long.

Again, as others pointed out.......you mold the team based on your strengths. You dont just put out your philosophy and enforce it, regardless of the players you have. Hill is not a deep passer, so why do we keep calling this ludicrous plays for him where the ball ends up looking like a punt ?
Hill can't even run THIS Offense, what makes ANYONE think that he can run an intricate system like the WCO?

Seriously?

~Ceadder
Aint gonna happen with the obsession they have at smash mouth. Too bad this team's offesne isn't built for smash mouth, and they are the ones getting smashed in the mouth by opposing defenses.
  • ZRF80
  • Member
  • Posts: 13,551
Originally posted by djfullshred:
Aint gonna happen with the obsession they have at smash mouth. Too bad this team's offesne isn't built for smash mouth, and they are the ones getting smashed in the mouth by opposing defenses.

Agreed. Smash mouth football in today's game is not like the good ole days, where a Natrone Means and/or Jerome Bettis could bull rush their way for yardage. You need an efficient 2-back system (ala Giants/Cowboys) to make this philosophy work. Gore has a tendency to get injured, and Coffee is not up to par yet in this offense.

if Sing thinks he can relive the 85 Bears with this roster, he's got another thing coming. Considering the importance of Gore in this offense, i would hope he would decrease the risk of Gore getting injured.

For that, he needs to pass more. For that, he needs to tweak that playbook.

Will it happen ? Never. But here's to hoping....
Originally posted by ZRF80:
He's an accurate passer in his comfort zone. He's not going to complete the 30 yard bomb on a deep post, but he'll squeeze in a good throw on a quick slant.

Not often enough. Not nearly as often as he did last year. Which is the problem. Last year he could do exactly what you are talking about with some consistency. This year he hasn't been able to.

I dont think the Bill Walsh Offense (I'm assuming that is what you're talking about, not the WCO, the Don Coryell system that Raye is already running) would make much of a difference for Hill IF he keeps playing like he has this season.