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West Coast Offense for Hill.....

  • ZRF80
  • Member
  • Posts: 13,551
I know, I know.......Im dreaming.

It's the absolute opposite of what Sing is preaching to this young team. But somewhere along the line you have to mold your offense to the team's strengths. Is the running game a strength ? Sure. But with an oft-injured Gore, and a rookie backup still trying to find his game (not to mention the loss of Sheets), maybe it's time we DONT rely solely on Gore's legs to carry us to victory.

Which leaves us to Shaun Hill, and more specifically to Shaun Hill's arm. It's no mystery that the guy cannot throw deep. His comfort zone is between the 5-15 yard pass; he'll even give you a decent 20 yarder every now and then. But anything beyond that is outside his realm, which is a-ok, because thats exactly what we had with guys like Young and Garcia. So what do you do to solve this issue ?

You eliminate the 3rd and longs. Why keep running up the middle and force a long 3rd down conversion, when you you know your QB will have to make a play outside his comfort zone ? Why not "tune in" to his strengths and put him in a situation where he's 3rd and 5 (or less), and can actually squeeze a decent ball into coverage ? Especially when you know you're running game will falter because the opposition will adjust to Gore. There are a few articles out that claim that teams like Minn. and Atlanta actually adjusted their defenses to make SF one-dimensional. And when Hill was forced to throw outside his 5-15 yard zone, he botched.

The definite answer here would be to revert to a WCO type scheme. Give Hill plenty of screens, slants, short out patterns. A weak o-line means a weak pocket. Give the man some roll-outs (he's proven he can pass on the run), scrambles, etc.

Keep the defense honest, instead of succumbing to the typical "stand inside the pocket and die" mentality that Raye has implemented. I know Sing is hard headed, and he probably thinks a single change in the o-line (take Chilo out) and a semi-healthy Gore will be enough to go back to run, run, and more run. But unless we play to Hill's strengths, this offense will remain anemic and we will rely solely on our defense/ST to win. And that my friends is a no-no, especially with teams like Indy and GB coming up in the next month.

A lot of you guys have given up on Hill based on this season's play. But keep in mind that this was the SAME Hill who looked brilliant in Martz's offense, and even looked semi-good in Hostler's offense. The man has proven he can move the chains and put up some points, if given the right conditions. And sure, it sucks that he's no Brady and/or a Manning and cannot adjust to the game (he needs the game adjusted to him), but hey......thats all what got for now, and it wouldnt hurt to make things easier for him, especially with our o-line and receiving corp.



I hope Sing/Raye use these 2 weeks wisely.
Or maybe the run and shoot for Alex. But seriously I see what your saying, but it'll never happen with this staff and for an incumbent like Hill.
Just what kind of strengths does Hill possess? Gamer doesn't get it done, you have to actually have some physical abilities to work with. Pocket presence and accuracy were supposedly his strengths heading into this year, but so far he has lacked in both. He has the freedom to audible from run/pass or from pass.run, but I have yet to see him actually use this freedom to help move the chains. Teams have figured out that they can run blitz and make us a one dimensional team and put the pressure on Hill, and the Falcons made it work. I am by no means going to blame last week on Hill, I think the offensive line was the biggest culprit, but Hill was as bad as last year against the Rams, who exposed Hill's weaknesses.
  • ZRF80
  • Member
  • Posts: 13,551
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Just what kind of strengths does Hill possess? Gamer doesn't get it done, you have to actually have some physical abilities to work with. Pocket presence and accuracy were supposedly his strengths heading into this year, but so far he has lacked in both. He has the freedom to audible from run/pass or from pass.run, but I have yet to see him actually use this freedom to help move the chains. Teams have figured out that they can run blitz and make us a one dimensional team and put the pressure on Hill, and the Falcons made it work. I am by no means going to blame last week on Hill, I think the offensive line was the biggest culprit, but Hill was as bad as last year against the Rams, who exposed Hill's weaknesses.

He's an accurate passer in his comfort zone. He's not going to complete the 30 yard bomb on a deep post, but he'll squeeze in a good throw on a quick slant. Prime example: when we were down 14-10 this past week, driving inside the Falcons 40. 2nd and 5.....Hill squeezed a pretty good ball to Bruce on a quick slant. Bruce dropped it...Hill gets sacked next play......Niners punt.......results in 90 yard TD by White.

Hill has strengths..we just need to call more plays for him, instead of putting him in position to make a play he cannot make........
  • 9ermj
  • Info N/A
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Just what kind of strengths does Hill possess? Gamer doesn't get it done, you have to actually have some physical abilities to work with. Pocket presence and accuracy were supposedly his strengths heading into this year, but so far he has lacked in both. He has the freedom to audible from run/pass or from pass.run, but I have yet to see him actually use this freedom to help move the chains. Teams have figured out that they can run blitz and make us a one dimensional team and put the pressure on Hill, and the Falcons made it work. I am by no means going to blame last week on Hill, I think the offensive line was the biggest culprit, but Hill was as bad as last year against the Rams, who exposed Hill's weaknesses.

I've made my case against Hill pretty much everywhere, but at some point what can they do if the coaches think he's the guy, I'm far from convinced and was always concerned that with with such a small amount games he's played that teams would figure him out , well they have son now it's the coaches and Hill's move adapt or lose
I agree with the premise of this thread: Why not build our offense around the Quarterback's strengths instead of trying to be a team which the coach envisions as the type of football he likes to play?

Not sure what the answer to that question is, but from what I've seen we won't be changing much this bye week and especially not the offense when Hill leaves on Vacation instead of staying here to practice. Kind of disappointed that he didn't but you guys will probably twist that somehow. I've been behind Hill through 4 weeks, but this past week just really put me down on the guy.

[ Edited by Method on Oct 13, 2009 at 19:30:52 ]
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Just what kind of strengths does Hill possess? Gamer doesn't get it done, you have to actually have some physical abilities to work with. Pocket presence and accuracy were supposedly his strengths heading into this year, but so far he has lacked in both. He has the freedom to audible from run/pass or from pass.run, but I have yet to see him actually use this freedom to help move the chains. Teams have figured out that they can run blitz and make us a one dimensional team and put the pressure on Hill, and the Falcons made it work. I am by no means going to blame last week on Hill, I think the offensive line was the biggest culprit, but Hill was as bad as last year against the Rams, who exposed Hill's weaknesses.

He's an accurate passer in his comfort zone. He's not going to complete the 30 yard bomb on a deep post, but he'll squeeze in a good throw on a quick slant. Prime example: when we were down 14-10 this past week, driving inside the Falcons 40. 2nd and 5.....Hill squeezed a pretty good ball to Bruce on a quick slant. Bruce dropped it...Hill gets sacked next play......Niners punt.......results in 90 yard TD by White.

Hill has strengths..we just need to call more plays for him, instead of putting him in position to make a play he cannot make........

Your not wrong. He is accurate, is tough, a good leader and pretty consistant (consistanty ok), but hes wat too limited to to run an entire offense based on is srengths. Its not like hes the future, hes just in there temporarily.
  • ZRF80
  • Member
  • Posts: 13,551
Originally posted by jones49:
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Just what kind of strengths does Hill possess? Gamer doesn't get it done, you have to actually have some physical abilities to work with. Pocket presence and accuracy were supposedly his strengths heading into this year, but so far he has lacked in both. He has the freedom to audible from run/pass or from pass.run, but I have yet to see him actually use this freedom to help move the chains. Teams have figured out that they can run blitz and make us a one dimensional team and put the pressure on Hill, and the Falcons made it work. I am by no means going to blame last week on Hill, I think the offensive line was the biggest culprit, but Hill was as bad as last year against the Rams, who exposed Hill's weaknesses.

He's an accurate passer in his comfort zone. He's not going to complete the 30 yard bomb on a deep post, but he'll squeeze in a good throw on a quick slant. Prime example: when we were down 14-10 this past week, driving inside the Falcons 40. 2nd and 5.....Hill squeezed a pretty good ball to Bruce on a quick slant. Bruce dropped it...Hill gets sacked next play......Niners punt.......results in 90 yard TD by White.

Hill has strengths..we just need to call more plays for him, instead of putting him in position to make a play he cannot make........

Your not wrong. He is accurate, is tough, a good leader and pretty consistant (consistanty ok), but hes wat too limited to to run an entire offense based on is srengths. Its not like hes the future, hes just in there temporarily.

But this thread is not based on a hunch. Hill HAS run an entire offense in the past with very little limitations. He HAS sustained drives with his arm alone. It seems like when the playcalling is to his abilities, he has demonstrable success. It's when the coaching staff asks him to make plays outside what he's accustomed to (deep bombs, 3rd and 15 conversions), he goes awry.

As Method pointed, I think the coaching staff is too hard headed to do this. They want to make this run first offense with a star running back who has a low threshold for getting injured. And if I remember correctly, Gore doesnt necessarily return from these injuries in full form in the same season. We keep playing like this, we'll lose Gore and this offense.

Sing's gotta change, sooner rather than later......
Originally posted by jones49:
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Just what kind of strengths does Hill possess? Gamer doesn't get it done, you have to actually have some physical abilities to work with. Pocket presence and accuracy were supposedly his strengths heading into this year, but so far he has lacked in both. He has the freedom to audible from run/pass or from pass.run, but I have yet to see him actually use this freedom to help move the chains. Teams have figured out that they can run blitz and make us a one dimensional team and put the pressure on Hill, and the Falcons made it work. I am by no means going to blame last week on Hill, I think the offensive line was the biggest culprit, but Hill was as bad as last year against the Rams, who exposed Hill's weaknesses.

He's an accurate passer in his comfort zone. He's not going to complete the 30 yard bomb on a deep post, but he'll squeeze in a good throw on a quick slant. Prime example: when we were down 14-10 this past week, driving inside the Falcons 40. 2nd and 5.....Hill squeezed a pretty good ball to Bruce on a quick slant. Bruce dropped it...Hill gets sacked next play......Niners punt.......results in 90 yard TD by White.

Hill has strengths..we just need to call more plays for him, instead of putting him in position to make a play he cannot make........

Your not wrong. He is accurate, is tough, a good leader and pretty consistant (consistanty ok), but hes wat too limited to to run an entire offense based on is srengths. Its not like hes the future, hes just in there temporarily.

It's amazing how people can just believe this team wins by accident with Hill as the starter. Two years ago we were having a terrible season but Hill comes in and wins us two games. Last year we are again having a terrible season and Hill comes in and wins. Hill starts out this season and wins. Yet some how the winning is coincidence. I don't know if everyone understands how hard it is to win in the NFL but I know it doesn't happen by accident.

[ Edited by dirtysouthniner on Oct 13, 2009 at 19:40:21 ]
Bring in Shanahan and an understudy in case he leaves after a year. Do it.
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Just what kind of strengths does Hill possess? Gamer doesn't get it done, you have to actually have some physical abilities to work with. Pocket presence and accuracy were supposedly his strengths heading into this year, but so far he has lacked in both. He has the freedom to audible from run/pass or from pass.run, but I have yet to see him actually use this freedom to help move the chains. Teams have figured out that they can run blitz and make us a one dimensional team and put the pressure on Hill, and the Falcons made it work. I am by no means going to blame last week on Hill, I think the offensive line was the biggest culprit, but Hill was as bad as last year against the Rams, who exposed Hill's weaknesses.

He's an accurate passer in his comfort zone. He's not going to complete the 30 yard bomb on a deep post, but he'll squeeze in a good throw on a quick slant. Prime example: when we were down 14-10 this past week, driving inside the Falcons 40. 2nd and 5.....Hill squeezed a pretty good ball to Bruce on a quick slant. Bruce dropped it...Hill gets sacked next play......Niners punt.......results in 90 yard TD by White.

Hill has strengths..we just need to call more plays for him, instead of putting him in position to make a play he cannot make........

I agree....and although the OLINE was doing a horrible job of blocking...it seemed Shaun tried to adjust him self...but he and Vernon were not on the same page.... if Vernon cut in and caught those quick passes, as the Falcons were blitzing, it might have been a totally different game........ those could have been big gains or even TDs....Falcons would have backed off....we would have keep that f'k great QB off the field (he really impressed me) and our defense would have been rested as well as not felt pressured enough to try to do too much, like some of the players were trying to do. (Nate, Manny, etc)

I just CANNOT believe the offense was not prepared for that type of approach Atlanta was taking....it has been the same all year....blitz up the middle

like you and others have suggested, why not move the pocket on key 3rd downs.
Originally posted by dirtysouthniner:
Originally posted by jones49:
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Just what kind of strengths does Hill possess? Gamer doesn't get it done, you have to actually have some physical abilities to work with. Pocket presence and accuracy were supposedly his strengths heading into this year, but so far he has lacked in both. He has the freedom to audible from run/pass or from pass.run, but I have yet to see him actually use this freedom to help move the chains. Teams have figured out that they can run blitz and make us a one dimensional team and put the pressure on Hill, and the Falcons made it work. I am by no means going to blame last week on Hill, I think the offensive line was the biggest culprit, but Hill was as bad as last year against the Rams, who exposed Hill's weaknesses.

He's an accurate passer in his comfort zone. He's not going to complete the 30 yard bomb on a deep post, but he'll squeeze in a good throw on a quick slant. Prime example: when we were down 14-10 this past week, driving inside the Falcons 40. 2nd and 5.....Hill squeezed a pretty good ball to Bruce on a quick slant. Bruce dropped it...Hill gets sacked next play......Niners punt.......results in 90 yard TD by White.

Hill has strengths..we just need to call more plays for him, instead of putting him in position to make a play he cannot make........

Your not wrong. He is accurate, is tough, a good leader and pretty consistant (consistanty ok), but hes wat too limited to to run an entire offense based on is srengths. Its not like hes the future, hes just in there temporarily.

It's amazing how people can just believe this team wins by accident with Hill as the starter. Two years ago we were having a terrible season but Hill comes in and wins us two games. Last year we are again having a terrible season and Hill comes in and wins. Hill starts out this season and wins. Yet some how the winning is coincidence. I don't know if everyone understands how hard it is to win in the NFL but I know it doesn't happen by accident.

He wasn't winning by accident, the team was playing harder and there were changes made along the line. After Nolan was canned the defense went from 26th to 13th, we won more games because of the defense mainly. Last year Hill has 16 turnovers (8 fumbles 8 picks) and 13 td's, his completion % has steadily declined in each of the three seasons he has played in. This team wins because of defense, the defense plays good and we win, it sucks and we lose. The best thing about Hill this year is he has kept his turnovers down. Other than that, he has been pretty unimpressive.
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by dirtysouthniner:
Originally posted by jones49:
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Just what kind of strengths does Hill possess? Gamer doesn't get it done, you have to actually have some physical abilities to work with. Pocket presence and accuracy were supposedly his strengths heading into this year, but so far he has lacked in both. He has the freedom to audible from run/pass or from pass.run, but I have yet to see him actually use this freedom to help move the chains. Teams have figured out that they can run blitz and make us a one dimensional team and put the pressure on Hill, and the Falcons made it work. I am by no means going to blame last week on Hill, I think the offensive line was the biggest culprit, but Hill was as bad as last year against the Rams, who exposed Hill's weaknesses.

He's an accurate passer in his comfort zone. He's not going to complete the 30 yard bomb on a deep post, but he'll squeeze in a good throw on a quick slant. Prime example: when we were down 14-10 this past week, driving inside the Falcons 40. 2nd and 5.....Hill squeezed a pretty good ball to Bruce on a quick slant. Bruce dropped it...Hill gets sacked next play......Niners punt.......results in 90 yard TD by White.

Hill has strengths..we just need to call more plays for him, instead of putting him in position to make a play he cannot make........

Your not wrong. He is accurate, is tough, a good leader and pretty consistant (consistanty ok), but hes wat too limited to to run an entire offense based on is srengths. Its not like hes the future, hes just in there temporarily.

It's amazing how people can just believe this team wins by accident with Hill as the starter. Two years ago we were having a terrible season but Hill comes in and wins us two games. Last year we are again having a terrible season and Hill comes in and wins. Hill starts out this season and wins. Yet some how the winning is coincidence. I don't know if everyone understands how hard it is to win in the NFL but I know it doesn't happen by accident.

He wasn't winning by accident, the team was playing harder and there were changes made along the line. After Nolan was canned the defense went from 26th to 13th, we won more games because of the defense mainly. Last year Hill has 16 turnovers (8 fumbles 8 picks) and 13 td's, his completion % has steadily declined in each of the three seasons he has played in. This team wins because of defense, the defense plays good and we win, it sucks and we lose. The best thing about Hill this year is he has kept his turnovers down. Other than that, he has been pretty unimpressive.

last year the defense improved because they got to rest....mainly because of Hill and his dink and dunks and converting 3rd downs.
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by dirtysouthniner:
Originally posted by jones49:
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Just what kind of strengths does Hill possess? Gamer doesn't get it done, you have to actually have some physical abilities to work with. Pocket presence and accuracy were supposedly his strengths heading into this year, but so far he has lacked in both. He has the freedom to audible from run/pass or from pass.run, but I have yet to see him actually use this freedom to help move the chains. Teams have figured out that they can run blitz and make us a one dimensional team and put the pressure on Hill, and the Falcons made it work. I am by no means going to blame last week on Hill, I think the offensive line was the biggest culprit, but Hill was as bad as last year against the Rams, who exposed Hill's weaknesses.

He's an accurate passer in his comfort zone. He's not going to complete the 30 yard bomb on a deep post, but he'll squeeze in a good throw on a quick slant. Prime example: when we were down 14-10 this past week, driving inside the Falcons 40. 2nd and 5.....Hill squeezed a pretty good ball to Bruce on a quick slant. Bruce dropped it...Hill gets sacked next play......Niners punt.......results in 90 yard TD by White.

Hill has strengths..we just need to call more plays for him, instead of putting him in position to make a play he cannot make........

Your not wrong. He is accurate, is tough, a good leader and pretty consistant (consistanty ok), but hes wat too limited to to run an entire offense based on is srengths. Its not like hes the future, hes just in there temporarily.

It's amazing how people can just believe this team wins by accident with Hill as the starter. Two years ago we were having a terrible season but Hill comes in and wins us two games. Last year we are again having a terrible season and Hill comes in and wins. Hill starts out this season and wins. Yet some how the winning is coincidence. I don't know if everyone understands how hard it is to win in the NFL but I know it doesn't happen by accident.

He wasn't winning by accident, the team was playing harder and there were changes made along the line. After Nolan was canned the defense went from 26th to 13th, we won more games because of the defense mainly. Last year Hill has 16 turnovers (8 fumbles 8 picks) and 13 td's, his completion % has steadily declined in each of the three seasons he has played in. This team wins because of defense, the defense plays good and we win, it sucks and we lose. The best thing about Hill this year is he has kept his turnovers down. Other than that, he has been pretty unimpressive.

If you're saying that Hill isn't the future than I am with you. But he is the best we got. Garcia was run out of town because he didn't look good winning either.
Originally posted by ZRF80:
I know, I know.......Im dreaming.

It's the absolute opposite of what Sing is preaching to this young team. But somewhere along the line you have to mold your offense to the team's strengths. Is the running game a strength ? Sure. But with an oft-injured Gore, and a rookie backup still trying to find his game (not to mention the loss of Sheets), maybe it's time we DONT rely solely on Gore's legs to carry us to victory.

Which leaves us to Shaun Hill, and more specifically to Shaun Hill's arm. It's no mystery that the guy cannot throw deep. His comfort zone is between the 5-15 yard pass; he'll even give you a decent 20 yarder every now and then. But anything beyond that is outside his realm, which is a-ok, because thats exactly what we had with guys like Young and Garcia. So what do you do to solve this issue ?

You eliminate the 3rd and longs. Why keep running up the middle and force a long 3rd down conversion, when you you know your QB will have to make a play outside his comfort zone ? Why not "tune in" to his strengths and put him in a situation where he's 3rd and 5 (or less), and can actually squeeze a decent ball into coverage ? Especially when you know you're running game will falter because the opposition will adjust to Gore. There are a few articles out that claim that teams like Minn. and Atlanta actually adjusted their defenses to make SF one-dimensional. And when Hill was forced to throw outside his 5-15 yard zone, he botched.

The definite answer here would be to revert to a WCO type scheme. Give Hill plenty of screens, slants, short out patterns. A weak o-line means a weak pocket. Give the man some roll-outs (he's proven he can pass on the run), scrambles, etc.

Keep the defense honest, instead of succumbing to the typical "stand inside the pocket and die" mentality that Raye has implemented. I know Sing is hard headed, and he probably thinks a single change in the o-line (take Chilo out) and a semi-healthy Gore will be enough to go back to run, run, and more run. But unless we play to Hill's strengths, this offense will remain anemic and we will rely solely on our defense/ST to win. And that my friends is a no-no, especially with teams like Indy and GB coming up in the next month.

A lot of you guys have given up on Hill based on this season's play. But keep in mind that this was the SAME Hill who looked brilliant in Martz's offense, and even looked semi-good in Hostler's offense. The man has proven he can move the chains and put up some points, if given the right conditions. And sure, it sucks that he's no Brady and/or a Manning and cannot adjust to the game (he needs the game adjusted to him), but hey......thats all what got for now, and it wouldnt hurt to make things easier for him, especially with our o-line and receiving corp.



I hope Sing/Raye use these 2 weeks wisely.

LOL YOU DID NOT JUST COMPARE SHAUN HILL TO STEVE YOUNG. That's an insult to a former MVP, Superbowl champion, superbowl MVP, NFL leader in passer rating, etc. Come on man that's a joke. Young had a WAY better arm than Hill. Garcia's wasn't great but his was better too. But young actually had a good arm. Hill doesn't. He's not as mobile as Steve. That comparison is a joke. Young was a Brady/Manning type of player, not a Garcia and DEFINITELY not a Hill.

I knew people loved Shaun Hill but I never knew they loved him THIS much. And the WCO wouldn't even work for him because you have to go deep nowadays atleast once or twice per game to keep the defense honest. Just look at McNabb and Philly who uses the WCO but they got burners like Maclin and Jackson because they needed to stretch the field.