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Heard on KNBR on why we looked lost on the deep ball

Originally posted by singfan:
Originally posted by BirdmanJr:
I don't know which player it was but they said

"The reason that we didn't do well at all during those plays, is that we didn't practice those"

Is Raye this stubborn not to practice the deep ball? No wonder Hill looks so lost out there on deep routes, if you don't practice them how are you supposed to connect with your receivers?


This is not the philosophy of our HC. We're going to run, even when they know we're going to run, remember?

yea man but, even he has said u cant run the ball when ur down 0-14... just like the great Bill Walsh said...... "While your trying to establish the run... you look up at the scoreboard and its 0-21
I don't buy this garbage about Hill being the reason the team doesn't throw deep. It's all Raye's scheme.

Hill's 2008 stats when attempting passes of 31+ yds;
28 completions out of 42 attempts, that's 66%. 296yds with 4TDs and 1int. 108.8 QB rating.

He threw deep last year with some success. Of course some bad things come along with that, like more sacks. But the proof is there, the guy CAN throw deeper than 10 yds. The only thing that's different this year is the man calling the plays.
Originally posted by AKfanster:
I don't buy this garbage about Hill being the reason the team doesn't throw deep. It's all Raye's scheme.

Hill's 2008 stats when attempting passes of 31+ yds;
28 completions out of 42 attempts, that's 66%. 296yds with 4TDs and 1int. 108.8 QB rating.

He threw deep last year with some success. Of course some bad things come along with that, like more sacks. But the proof is there, the guy CAN throw deeper than 10 yds. The only thing that's different this year is the man calling the plays.

It's not that he cant throw 30+ yards, its how he does it. While most starting QB's can throw a bullet at 30yards Hill is lobbing the ball. If you watch most of his long passes they almost become jump balls because the have so much air underneath them.

If you increase the distance to 45+ yards he cant hit the WR in full stride and usually they are coming back to get the ball.
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by AKfanster:
I don't buy this garbage about Hill being the reason the team doesn't throw deep. It's all Raye's scheme.

Hill's 2008 stats when attempting passes of 31+ yds;
28 completions out of 42 attempts, that's 66%. 296yds with 4TDs and 1int. 108.8 QB rating.

He threw deep last year with some success. Of course some bad things come along with that, like more sacks. But the proof is there, the guy CAN throw deeper than 10 yds. The only thing that's different this year is the man calling the plays.

It's not that he cant throw 30+ yards, its how he does it. While most starting QB's can throw a bullet at 30yards Hill is lobbing the ball. If you watch most of his long passes they almost become jump balls because the have so much air underneath them.

If you increase the distance to 45+ yards he cant hit the WR in full stride and usually they are coming back to get the ball.


I don't care how he throws it. That wasn't my point. My point was that Hill has had success throwing deeper passes than what we've seen this year. I'm so tired of seeing screen after screen and dumpoff after dumpoff. Hill did fairly well throwing 30+ yds last year, what's the problem this year?
It's Raye with his 1930s playbook
  • mando1988
  • Info N/A
jimmy raye needs to wake his ass up and get this offense going...if not the 49ers need to show him the door...at some point theres gonna have to be a change if the offense keeps looking like this...
  • obx49
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 4,415
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Blitz:
He's right with his analysis, IMHO. You say some can make the throws: Well, Hill can't make all the throws. He simply does not have the abiltity to make all the throws. Now you throw in an o-line playing like s**t, and you have just cut your already handicapped QB (because he can't make all the throws even under the best of circumstances) down to nothing. Hill takes a large support cast, there is no doubt about that. So, the root of the problem is the o-line, both run blocking and pass protection, followed by having a QB who can't make all the throws that a top notch QB usually can, even when not pressured.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying but it appears we, as fans, tend to only look at the most recent events with players. What we don't do is look at the bigger picture or even history. In the case of Hill, Hill DID make all the throws necessary in a Martz system that was designed to go down field early and often. Last year, Hill made ALL of the throws in tight windows and with confidence. He was allowed to get into a rhythm and his confidence to throw grew with each game, as did his confidence in his WR's and offense as a whole.

This year, I see zero adjustments by Raye, a you-can't-throw and don't-lose-the-ball attitude now forced on Hill, WR's and the QB are not even mentioned in the keys to winning according to Singletary and Raye and yet, with the minimal chances Hill and this ENTIRE offense has had to grow and develop, self-inflicted, it's amazing to me we've been able to do anything at all. Our 3rd down %'s are a direct result of poor, conservative play-calling and an inability of an OC and coach to adjust to defenses and play to a team's strength and supported by a HC's philosophy to play scared and close to the vest.

But I digress and repeat myself again; Hill CAN make the throws as evidenced last year in a system that fit him and this offense much better, even if it was pulled back by Singletary who, as evidenced even more, fired Martz b/c he couldn't (or wouldn't) be even more vanilla on offense. It was a "philosophical difference."

We are seeing the results right now of this philosophy and out-dated offensive game-plan but the QB is NOT to blame here, nor is the offensive line or the WR's or the TE's or the RB's nor are the fans. Players are NOT put in position to be successful.

It ALL starts with philosophy (at the top) and filters down to the field.

Case closed, argument over. Great Post!
Originally posted by AKfanster:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by AKfanster:
I don't buy this garbage about Hill being the reason the team doesn't throw deep. It's all Raye's scheme.

Hill's 2008 stats when attempting passes of 31+ yds;
28 completions out of 42 attempts, that's 66%. 296yds with 4TDs and 1int. 108.8 QB rating.

He threw deep last year with some success. Of course some bad things come along with that, like more sacks. But the proof is there, the guy CAN throw deeper than 10 yds. The only thing that's different this year is the man calling the plays.

It's not that he cant throw 30+ yards, its how he does it. While most starting QB's can throw a bullet at 30yards Hill is lobbing the ball. If you watch most of his long passes they almost become jump balls because the have so much air underneath them.

If you increase the distance to 45+ yards he cant hit the WR in full stride and usually they are coming back to get the ball.


I don't care how he throws it. That wasn't my point. My point was that Hill has had success throwing deeper passes than what we've seen this year. I'm so tired of seeing screen after screen and dumpoff after dumpoff. Hill did fairly well throwing 30+ yds last year, what's the problem this year?
It's Raye with his 1930s playbook

You blame Raye but you don't look at the reads by Hill. We do have WR's that run deep but he isn't getting the ball to them. He was given a few shots on Sunday and didn't do much with those opportunity's.
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by AKfanster:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by AKfanster:
I don't buy this garbage about Hill being the reason the team doesn't throw deep. It's all Raye's scheme.

Hill's 2008 stats when attempting passes of 31+ yds;
28 completions out of 42 attempts, that's 66%. 296yds with 4TDs and 1int. 108.8 QB rating.

He threw deep last year with some success. Of course some bad things come along with that, like more sacks. But the proof is there, the guy CAN throw deeper than 10 yds. The only thing that's different this year is the man calling the plays.

It's not that he cant throw 30+ yards, its how he does it. While most starting QB's can throw a bullet at 30yards Hill is lobbing the ball. If you watch most of his long passes they almost become jump balls because the have so much air underneath them.

If you increase the distance to 45+ yards he cant hit the WR in full stride and usually they are coming back to get the ball.


I don't care how he throws it. That wasn't my point. My point was that Hill has had success throwing deeper passes than what we've seen this year. I'm so tired of seeing screen after screen and dumpoff after dumpoff. Hill did fairly well throwing 30+ yds last year, what's the problem this year?
It's Raye with his 1930s playbook

You blame Raye but you don't look at the reads by Hill. We do have WR's that run deep but he isn't getting the ball to them. He was given a few shots on Sunday and didn't do much with those opportunity's.

On sunday all I saw was receivers with two defenders right on top of them. I haven't heard any criticism of Hill missing open receivers?
Originally posted by dirtysouthniner:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by AKfanster:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by AKfanster:
I don't buy this garbage about Hill being the reason the team doesn't throw deep. It's all Raye's scheme.

Hill's 2008 stats when attempting passes of 31+ yds;
28 completions out of 42 attempts, that's 66%. 296yds with 4TDs and 1int. 108.8 QB rating.

He threw deep last year with some success. Of course some bad things come along with that, like more sacks. But the proof is there, the guy CAN throw deeper than 10 yds. The only thing that's different this year is the man calling the plays.

It's not that he cant throw 30+ yards, its how he does it. While most starting QB's can throw a bullet at 30yards Hill is lobbing the ball. If you watch most of his long passes they almost become jump balls because the have so much air underneath them.

If you increase the distance to 45+ yards he cant hit the WR in full stride and usually they are coming back to get the ball.


I don't care how he throws it. That wasn't my point. My point was that Hill has had success throwing deeper passes than what we've seen this year. I'm so tired of seeing screen after screen and dumpoff after dumpoff. Hill did fairly well throwing 30+ yds last year, what's the problem this year?
It's Raye with his 1930s playbook

You blame Raye but you don't look at the reads by Hill. We do have WR's that run deep but he isn't getting the ball to them. He was given a few shots on Sunday and didn't do much with those opportunity's.

On sunday all I saw was receivers with two defenders right on top of them. I haven't heard any criticism of Hill missing open receivers?

That's because Hill is actually Jesus.
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by AKfanster:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by AKfanster:
I don't buy this garbage about Hill being the reason the team doesn't throw deep. It's all Raye's scheme.

Hill's 2008 stats when attempting passes of 31+ yds;
28 completions out of 42 attempts, that's 66%. 296yds with 4TDs and 1int. 108.8 QB rating.

He threw deep last year with some success. Of course some bad things come along with that, like more sacks. But the proof is there, the guy CAN throw deeper than 10 yds. The only thing that's different this year is the man calling the plays.

It's not that he cant throw 30+ yards, its how he does it. While most starting QB's can throw a bullet at 30yards Hill is lobbing the ball. If you watch most of his long passes they almost become jump balls because the have so much air underneath them.

If you increase the distance to 45+ yards he cant hit the WR in full stride and usually they are coming back to get the ball.


I don't care how he throws it. That wasn't my point. My point was that Hill has had success throwing deeper passes than what we've seen this year. I'm so tired of seeing screen after screen and dumpoff after dumpoff. Hill did fairly well throwing 30+ yds last year, what's the problem this year?
It's Raye with his 1930s playbook

You blame Raye but you don't look at the reads by Hill. We do have WR's that run deep but he isn't getting the ball to them. He was given a few shots on Sunday and didn't do much with those opportunity's.


You blame Hill but don't look at the predictable play calling and horrible offensive line play.
Look, I'm not saying Hill is Steve Young. He wouldn't even start on 30 teams in the league. But you can't blame solely him for this horrible offense.
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by dirtysouthniner:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by AKfanster:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by AKfanster:
I don't buy this garbage about Hill being the reason the team doesn't throw deep. It's all Raye's scheme.

Hill's 2008 stats when attempting passes of 31+ yds;
28 completions out of 42 attempts, that's 66%. 296yds with 4TDs and 1int. 108.8 QB rating.

He threw deep last year with some success. Of course some bad things come along with that, like more sacks. But the proof is there, the guy CAN throw deeper than 10 yds. The only thing that's different this year is the man calling the plays.

It's not that he cant throw 30+ yards, its how he does it. While most starting QB's can throw a bullet at 30yards Hill is lobbing the ball. If you watch most of his long passes they almost become jump balls because the have so much air underneath them.

If you increase the distance to 45+ yards he cant hit the WR in full stride and usually they are coming back to get the ball.


I don't care how he throws it. That wasn't my point. My point was that Hill has had success throwing deeper passes than what we've seen this year. I'm so tired of seeing screen after screen and dumpoff after dumpoff. Hill did fairly well throwing 30+ yds last year, what's the problem this year?
It's Raye with his 1930s playbook

You blame Raye but you don't look at the reads by Hill. We do have WR's that run deep but he isn't getting the ball to them. He was given a few shots on Sunday and didn't do much with those opportunity's.

On sunday all I saw was receivers with two defenders right on top of them. I haven't heard any criticism of Hill missing open receivers?

That's because Hill is actually Jesus.



JK. Seriously. The niners have more beat writers than anyother team I follow that love to write negative articles. I haven't heard anything about receivers running open and Hill not being able to find them. Most would agree that he doesn't have much time to look though.
  • Blitz
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 7,858
Originally posted by AKfanster:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by AKfanster:
I don't buy this garbage about Hill being the reason the team doesn't throw deep. It's all Raye's scheme.

Hill's 2008 stats when attempting passes of 31+ yds;
28 completions out of 42 attempts, that's 66%. 296yds with 4TDs and 1int. 108.8 QB rating.

He threw deep last year with some success. Of course some bad things come along with that, like more sacks. But the proof is there, the guy CAN throw deeper than 10 yds. The only thing that's different this year is the man calling the plays.

It's not that he cant throw 30+ yards, its how he does it. While most starting QB's can throw a bullet at 30yards Hill is lobbing the ball. If you watch most of his long passes they almost become jump balls because the have so much air underneath them.

If you increase the distance to 45+ yards he cant hit the WR in full stride and usually they are coming back to get the ball.


I don't care how he throws it. That wasn't my point. My point was that Hill has had success throwing deeper passes than what we've seen this year. I'm so tired of seeing screen after screen and dumpoff after dumpoff. Hill did fairly well throwing 30+ yds last year, what's the problem this year?
It's Raye with his 1930s playbook

lol

Last year VD stayed into to block so the play would have time to develop down field. That's how we were able to throw it there. We still got our ass whipped in pass protection even with max protect going, which we did A LOT. This year, he's out running routes but the drawback is there is less time for the play to develop when you have him do that. We are also not running near as much max protect. And, we are still getting our ass whipped in pass protection.

Take your pick...you can hold VD back to let the play develop down field, or you can send him out on the routes. Pick either one, but either which one you do...your not going to get your cake and be able to eat it to.

My hunch is that if he was to hold VD back you would b***h about not using VD the right way.

Raye has chosen (correctly I add) utilize VD more as a receiving weapon instead of a blocker. That has come with a price...less time for plays to develop. Hence, the game plan is short to medium, which is exactly where it should be given our lack of execution on the o-line, and our lack of QB who can fire that ball out with some zip.

Now, if you get the o-line to pass protect worth a s**t, and a QB who can fire that ball accurately with zip (particularly on the medium to deep out routes) then you will get to have your cake and eat it to. It won't happen a moment before then, no matter who the O coordinator is, I guarantee it.

[ Edited by Blitz on Oct 13, 2009 at 18:18:09 ]
Originally posted by AKfanster:
I don't buy this garbage about Hill being the reason the team doesn't throw deep. It's all Raye's scheme.

Hill's 2008 stats when attempting passes of 31+ yds;
28 completions out of 42 attempts, that's 66%. 296yds with 4TDs and 1int. 108.8 QB rating.

He threw deep last year with some success. Of course some bad things come along with that, like more sacks. But the proof is there, the guy CAN throw deeper than 10 yds. The only thing that's different this year is the man calling the plays.

several things are different yes the OC is one but the OL is playing WAY worse than last year when Sing took over. If we can get the line to start playing better that will be the key to us opening up the passing game. Don't forget also our WR core took a beating in TC and early in the year w/Crabtree holding out, Jones/Battle getting hurt, doesn't help that Bruce is another year older on top of that. Fact is the offense has some real viable weapons in Gore/Davis/Morgan eventually Crabtree hopefully Jones also.
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by AKfanster:
I don't buy this garbage about Hill being the reason the team doesn't throw deep. It's all Raye's scheme.

Hill's 2008 stats when attempting passes of 31+ yds;
28 completions out of 42 attempts, that's 66%. 296yds with 4TDs and 1int. 108.8 QB rating.

He threw deep last year with some success. Of course some bad things come along with that, like more sacks. But the proof is there, the guy CAN throw deeper than 10 yds. The only thing that's different this year is the man calling the plays.

It's not that he cant throw 30+ yards, its how he does it. While most starting QB's can throw a bullet at 30yards Hill is lobbing the ball. If you watch most of his long passes they almost become jump balls because the have so much air underneath them.

If you increase the distance to 45+ yards he cant hit the WR in full stride and usually they are coming back to get the ball.

Unfortunate truth. I like Hill, and I've been pulling for him to succeed. He's a capable backup, game manager, all that s**t. Not a guy who can throw it on a frozen rope. Floaters get picked, everyone knows that, hence all the short passes.

Davis was throwing it at the sideline 25 yards with relative ease and accuracy during preseason, so I at least know Raye knows how to call deeper pass plays, he just has little faith in Hill's ability.

Hill's leash is growing shorter, and Smith will be in at some point whether headz on here like it or not.

Alls I know is, I'm getting tired of 3 yard run AND pass plays.
Originally posted by AKfanster:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by AKfanster:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by AKfanster:
I don't buy this garbage about Hill being the reason the team doesn't throw deep. It's all Raye's scheme.

Hill's 2008 stats when attempting passes of 31+ yds;
28 completions out of 42 attempts, that's 66%. 296yds with 4TDs and 1int. 108.8 QB rating.

He threw deep last year with some success. Of course some bad things come along with that, like more sacks. But the proof is there, the guy CAN throw deeper than 10 yds. The only thing that's different this year is the man calling the plays.

It's not that he cant throw 30+ yards, its how he does it. While most starting QB's can throw a bullet at 30yards Hill is lobbing the ball. If you watch most of his long passes they almost become jump balls because the have so much air underneath them.

If you increase the distance to 45+ yards he cant hit the WR in full stride and usually they are coming back to get the ball.


I don't care how he throws it. That wasn't my point. My point was that Hill has had success throwing deeper passes than what we've seen this year. I'm so tired of seeing screen after screen and dumpoff after dumpoff. Hill did fairly well throwing 30+ yds last year, what's the problem this year?
It's Raye with his 1930s playbook

You blame Raye but you don't look at the reads by Hill. We do have WR's that run deep but he isn't getting the ball to them. He was given a few shots on Sunday and didn't do much with those opportunity's.


You blame Hill but don't look at the predictable play calling and horrible offensive line play.
Look, I'm not saying Hill is Steve Young. He wouldn't even start on 30 teams in the league. But you can't blame solely him for this horrible offense.

Raye can only work with what he has...lets take a look shall we?
1. QB that struggles with passes over 35 yards and has 0 mobility
2. Star RB who has been hurt for a few weeks
3. Backup RB who still is like a deer in headlights
4. WR's who are struggling to get separation
5. O Line that struggles in pass protection and run blocking

What exactly do you expect him to call to counter all of those issues?

The point is when the opportunities present themselves Hill isnt taking full advantage of them. Goes back to my point that Hill cant punish a D when they make a mistake...he isn't the kind of QB. Game managers don't lose games, they sustain them. But the flip-side is you cant put the game on their shoulders and expect them to take the game over...a la Favre. Yes he is a probowler but what makes him that is the ability to take over the game, Hill doesn't do that.