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Heard on KNBR on why we looked lost on the deep ball

here we go again..
  • kem99
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 570
Originally posted by BirdmanJr:
Originally posted by kem99:
Originally posted by BirdmanJr:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by singfan:
Originally posted by BirdmanJr:
I don't know which player it was but they said

"The reason that we didn't do well at all during those plays, is that we didn't practice those"

Is Raye this stubborn not to practice the deep ball? No wonder Hill looks so lost out there on deep routes, if you don't practice them how are you supposed to connect with your receivers?


This is not the philosophy of our HC. We're going to run, even when they know we're going to run, remember?

We have a 56% pass to run ratio! Well if you include the sacks as a pass play. But doesn't include Hill's scrambles as called pass plays.

See please stop with the all we do is run mumbo jumbo! ALL OF YOU!

Yea srsly we pass that's not the problem, the problem is the Falcons took away our medium/short passes and made us go down the field and we couldn't..this explains on WHY we have so much trouble with the medium/deep passes, we don't f**king practice them!

Its funny how people complain or critique one thing but then never connect the dots. Here is why they're struggling with the medium to deep passing game: The OL is struggling in opening up holes for the running game and Gore has been out for essentially the last 3 games. As a result of not being able to run the ball, the offense has been stuck in a lot of 2nd and 3rd and long situations. Remember the announcers pointed out a couple of times that the Falcons were playing a 4-2-5 defense at times and the 49ers still could not run the ball. The inability to run the ball has also hurt the play-action game. All of which has left the 49ers in more obvious passing downs than they would like and allowed the opposing teams to dial up the pressure on Hill by either rushing 4 without having to worry about the run or bringing blitzers. The result is Hill is often being harassed and often does not have the time to let the long to medium throws develop or can't step into the deep ball, which he has to do given his "average" arm strength. And, knowing that they can get pressure on the QB and now having some film on Hill, teams know to play the short to medium passing game, which is why it looked like all the Falcons were within 5 yards of the line of scrimage on every pass play on Sunday.

If they can get the run game fixed with Gore coming back and changes on the OL, the pass rush will slow down and play action will work as well. The down and distance will also make the offense less predictable. Hill will have more time, etc. But, if they can't get Gore and the running game going, Hill just is not the QB to carry them. That QB is likely not on the roster.

Yes but it doesn't help when you don't practice the plays AT ALL every QB gets pressured and some can still make the throws..but if you aren't practicing them during the week what makes you think you will be able to execute during the game?

So...assuming the statement that started this thread was actually said by a 49ers player, were they not practicing the long throw to Morgan in the Rams game that hit him right in the hands and he dropped? Or, was that a case of Hill had time to make the throw and he made a good throw but Morgan dropped it?
Originally posted by kem99:
Originally posted by BirdmanJr:
Originally posted by kem99:
Originally posted by BirdmanJr:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by singfan:
Originally posted by BirdmanJr:
I don't know which player it was but they said

"The reason that we didn't do well at all during those plays, is that we didn't practice those"

Is Raye this stubborn not to practice the deep ball? No wonder Hill looks so lost out there on deep routes, if you don't practice them how are you supposed to connect with your receivers?


This is not the philosophy of our HC. We're going to run, even when they know we're going to run, remember?

We have a 56% pass to run ratio! Well if you include the sacks as a pass play. But doesn't include Hill's scrambles as called pass plays.

See please stop with the all we do is run mumbo jumbo! ALL OF YOU!

Yea srsly we pass that's not the problem, the problem is the Falcons took away our medium/short passes and made us go down the field and we couldn't..this explains on WHY we have so much trouble with the medium/deep passes, we don't f**king practice them!

Its funny how people complain or critique one thing but then never connect the dots. Here is why they're struggling with the medium to deep passing game: The OL is struggling in opening up holes for the running game and Gore has been out for essentially the last 3 games. As a result of not being able to run the ball, the offense has been stuck in a lot of 2nd and 3rd and long situations. Remember the announcers pointed out a couple of times that the Falcons were playing a 4-2-5 defense at times and the 49ers still could not run the ball. The inability to run the ball has also hurt the play-action game. All of which has left the 49ers in more obvious passing downs than they would like and allowed the opposing teams to dial up the pressure on Hill by either rushing 4 without having to worry about the run or bringing blitzers. The result is Hill is often being harassed and often does not have the time to let the long to medium throws develop or can't step into the deep ball, which he has to do given his "average" arm strength. And, knowing that they can get pressure on the QB and now having some film on Hill, teams know to play the short to medium passing game, which is why it looked like all the Falcons were within 5 yards of the line of scrimage on every pass play on Sunday.

If they can get the run game fixed with Gore coming back and changes on the OL, the pass rush will slow down and play action will work as well. The down and distance will also make the offense less predictable. Hill will have more time, etc. But, if they can't get Gore and the running game going, Hill just is not the QB to carry them. That QB is likely not on the roster.

Yes but it doesn't help when you don't practice the plays AT ALL every QB gets pressured and some can still make the throws..but if you aren't practicing them during the week what makes you think you will be able to execute during the game?

So...assuming the statement that started this thread was actually said by a 49ers player, were they not practicing the long throw to Morgan in the Rams game that hit him right in the hands and he dropped? Or, was that a case of Hill had time to make the throw and he made a good throw but Morgan dropped it?

You can't compare the Rams to the Falcons, the Rams are an awful team all around.

When you play good PLAYOFF teams you need to practice as much as u can, just because you executed against an awful team doesn't mean you just stop practicing and think you are going to execute against any team.
Originally posted by BirdmanJr:
I don't know which player it was but they said

"The reason that we didn't do well at all during those plays, is that we didn't practice those"

Is Raye this stubborn not to practice the deep ball? No wonder Hill looks so lost out there on deep routes, if you don't practice them how are you supposed to connect with your receivers?

Raye is the reason this team is not succeeding on offense, he is a cancer, once a loser, always a loser no matter how you try to disguise it. Sing just got Raye because its someone he can control.
  • Blitz
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 7,858
Originally posted by BirdmanJr:
Originally posted by kem99:
Originally posted by BirdmanJr:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by singfan:
Originally posted by BirdmanJr:
I don't know which player it was but they said

"The reason that we didn't do well at all during those plays, is that we didn't practice those"

Is Raye this stubborn not to practice the deep ball? No wonder Hill looks so lost out there on deep routes, if you don't practice them how are you supposed to connect with your receivers?


This is not the philosophy of our HC. We're going to run, even when they know we're going to run, remember?

We have a 56% pass to run ratio! Well if you include the sacks as a pass play. But doesn't include Hill's scrambles as called pass plays.

See please stop with the all we do is run mumbo jumbo! ALL OF YOU!

Yea srsly we pass that's not the problem, the problem is the Falcons took away our medium/short passes and made us go down the field and we couldn't..this explains on WHY we have so much trouble with the medium/deep passes, we don't f**king practice them!

Its funny how people complain or critique one thing but then never connect the dots. Here is why they're struggling with the medium to deep passing game: The OL is struggling in opening up holes for the running game and Gore has been out for essentially the last 3 games. As a result of not being able to run the ball, the offense has been stuck in a lot of 2nd and 3rd and long situations. Remember the announcers pointed out a couple of times that the Falcons were playing a 4-2-5 defense at times and the 49ers still could not run the ball. The inability to run the ball has also hurt the play-action game. All of which has left the 49ers in more obvious passing downs than they would like and allowed the opposing teams to dial up the pressure on Hill by either rushing 4 without having to worry about the run or bringing blitzers. The result is Hill is often being harassed and often does not have the time to let the long to medium throws develop or can't step into the deep ball, which he has to do given his "average" arm strength. And, knowing that they can get pressure on the QB and now having some film on Hill, teams know to play the short to medium passing game, which is why it looked like all the Falcons were within 5 yards of the line of scrimage on every pass play on Sunday.

If they can get the run game fixed with Gore coming back and changes on the OL, the pass rush will slow down and play action will work as well. The down and distance will also make the offense less predictable. Hill will have more time, etc. But, if they can't get Gore and the running game going, Hill just is not the QB to carry them. That QB is likely not on the roster.

Yes but it doesn't help when you don't practice the plays AT ALL every QB gets pressured and some can still make the throws..but if you aren't practicing them during the week what makes you think you will be able to execute during the game?

He's right with his analysis, IMHO. You say some can make the throws: Well, Hill can't make all the throws. He simply does not have the abiltity to make all the throws. Now you throw in an o-line playing like s**t, and you have just cut your already handicapped QB (because he can't make all the throws even under the best of circumstances) down to nothing. Hill takes a large support cast, there is no doubt about that. So, the root of the problem is the o-line, both run blocking and pass protection, followed by having a QB who can't make all the throws that a top notch QB usually can, even when not pressured.

This is what the defenses do with Hill: They squeeze the field from the outside in because they know he struggles to make the big out route sideline throw with zip. When we don't run the ball, we we don't command extra men in the box, they are able to squeeze it tighter and tighter. They know that the niner's are going to stay away from Hill's weakness (anything outside the hash mark's, except short) and try and set up situations where Hill throws to his strengths. That's the middle of the field...inside the hash marks, and it's not very deep (not a dump off though). Indeed, that has been our most successful pass play...right in the middle to VD. Why is that? Because that's Hills strength and outside of that he is weak, so Raye try's to set up situations where he can play into that, while at the same time avoiding having to play into his weakness. That's the horses we have right now and the best way to utilize them is to run that f**king rock because it helps to play into Hill's strength, which is short and inside the hash mark's. YOu can't change Hill's inherent weakness's, but you can change the weakness on the o-line, so that's what you do.

This is what Singletary means when he talks about being able to run the ball. He means: "We don't have the horses to do it any other way, and it's the best way to utilize what horses we do have right now."

Nowhere does he say that it will always be like this. I gaurantee you, we get an o'line that can run block and pass protect and a QB who can make all the throws that an NFL starting QB should be making and he will be using those horses as best he can as well. Meaning, he will still run the ball, but you will be seeing a lot more big time throws, even under pressure.

[ Edited by Blitz on Oct 13, 2009 at 12:09:26 ]
  • 9ermj
  • Info N/A
Originally posted by ApatheticIAm:
I think that Raye might be as bad,or worse than Hostler. There I said it.

I would agree , but he ran KC O with Marty when they were good , Norv loves the guy, except for Frank's big chunks they haven't run the ball or passed the ball very well all year
shoulda kept Martz
  • 9ermj
  • Info N/A
Originally posted by Blitz:
Originally posted by BirdmanJr:
Originally posted by kem99:
Originally posted by BirdmanJr:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by singfan:
Originally posted by BirdmanJr:
I don't know which player it was but they said

"The reason that we didn't do well at all during those plays, is that we didn't practice those"

Is Raye this stubborn not to practice the deep ball? No wonder Hill looks so lost out there on deep routes, if you don't practice them how are you supposed to connect with your receivers?


This is not the philosophy of our HC. We're going to run, even when they know we're going to run, remember?

We have a 56% pass to run ratio! Well if you include the sacks as a pass play. But doesn't include Hill's scrambles as called pass plays.

See please stop with the all we do is run mumbo jumbo! ALL OF YOU!

Yea srsly we pass that's not the problem, the problem is the Falcons took away our medium/short passes and made us go down the field and we couldn't..this explains on WHY we have so much trouble with the medium/deep passes, we don't f**king practice them!

Its funny how people complain or critique one thing but then never connect the dots. Here is why they're struggling with the medium to deep passing game: The OL is struggling in opening up holes for the running game and Gore has been out for essentially the last 3 games. As a result of not being able to run the ball, the offense has been stuck in a lot of 2nd and 3rd and long situations. Remember the announcers pointed out a couple of times that the Falcons were playing a 4-2-5 defense at times and the 49ers still could not run the ball. The inability to run the ball has also hurt the play-action game. All of which has left the 49ers in more obvious passing downs than they would like and allowed the opposing teams to dial up the pressure on Hill by either rushing 4 without having to worry about the run or bringing blitzers. The result is Hill is often being harassed and often does not have the time to let the long to medium throws develop or can't step into the deep ball, which he has to do given his "average" arm strength. And, knowing that they can get pressure on the QB and now having some film on Hill, teams know to play the short to medium passing game, which is why it looked like all the Falcons were within 5 yards of the line of scrimage on every pass play on Sunday.

If they can get the run game fixed with Gore coming back and changes on the OL, the pass rush will slow down and play action will work as well. The down and distance will also make the offense less predictable. Hill will have more time, etc. But, if they can't get Gore and the running game going, Hill just is not the QB to carry them. That QB is likely not on the roster.

Yes but it doesn't help when you don't practice the plays AT ALL every QB gets pressured and some can still make the throws..but if you aren't practicing them during the week what makes you think you will be able to execute during the game?

He's right with his analysis, IMHO. You say some can make the throws: Well, Hill can't make all the throws. He simply does not have the abiltity to make all the throws. Now you throw in an o-line playing like s**t, and you have just cut your already handicapped QB (because he can't make all the throws even under the best of circumstances) down to nothing. Hill takes a large support cast, there is no doubt about that. So, the root of the problem is the o-line, both run blocking and pass protection, followed by having a QB who can't make all the throws that a top notch QB usually can, even when not pressured.

This is what the defenses do with Hill: They squeeze the field from the outside in because they know he struggles to make the big out route sideline throw with zip. When we don't run the ball, we we don't command extra men in the box, they are able to squeeze it tighter and tighter. They know that the niner's are going to stay away from Hill's weakness (anything outside the hash mark's, except short) and try and set up situations where Hill throws to his strengths. That's the middle of the field...inside the hash marks, and it's not very deep (not a dump off though). Indeed, that has been our most successful pass play...right in the middle to VD. Why is that? Because that's Hills strength and outside of that he is weak, so Raye try's to set up situations where he can play into that, while at the same time avoiding having to play into his weakness. That's the horses we have right now and the best way to utilize them is to run that f**king rock because it helps to play into Hill's strength, which is short and inside the hash mark's. YOu can't change Hill's inherent weakness's, but you can change the weakness on the o-line, so that's what you do.

This is what Singletary means when he talks about being able to run the ball. He means: "We don't have the horses to do it any other way, and it's the best way to utilize what horses we do have right now."

Nowhere does he say that it will always be like this. I gaurantee you, we get an o'line that can run block and pass protect and a QB who can make all the throws that an NFL starting QB should be making and he will be using those horses as best he can as well. Meaning, he will still run the ball, but you will be seeing a lot more big time throws, even under pressure.


I hope you're right, how are they supposed to be competitive with such a lack of talent on the O
Originally posted by BirdmanJr:
Originally posted by dirtysouthniner:
I am sorry to say but this is what Singletary wants

Coach what is you offensive strategy?

We are going to run the ball!

What happens when that doesn't work? Contingency plan?

There isn't one. We are going to run the ball!

I think it has more to do with Raye not trusting Hill

That's what I think, I'm afraid.
Originally posted by 9ermj:
Originally posted by ApatheticIAm:
I think that Raye might be as bad,or worse than Hostler. There I said it.

I would agree , but he ran KC O with Marty when they were good , Norv loves the guy, except for Frank's big chunks they haven't run the ball or passed the ball very well all year

The whole offense is a joke besides for Gore and Vernon Davis.

QB stinks
OL stinks

kinda hard for an OC to come in a do well when you got that. I still acknowledge that Raye isnt doing a good job but its not all on him
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by singfan:
Originally posted by BirdmanJr:
I don't know which player it was but they said

"The reason that we didn't do well at all during those plays, is that we didn't practice those"

Is Raye this stubborn not to practice the deep ball? No wonder Hill looks so lost out there on deep routes, if you don't practice them how are you supposed to connect with your receivers?


This is not the philosophy of our HC. We're going to run, even when they know we're going to run, remember?

We have a 56% pass to run ratio! Well if you include the sacks as a pass play. But doesn't include Hill's scrambles as called pass plays.

See please stop with the all we do is run mumbo jumbo! ALL OF YOU!

Your #1 flaw in this forum. Taking the opion of a few and projecting it onto the rest of us.
If anyone remembers that long pass in the first game against Hill to Bruce, what Hill said afterwords. He said that he didn't make that pass very much in practice.

Meaning, it must have been practiced, or else he wouldn't have said that. And, Hill isn't a superstar with the deep ducks he throws, so it probably isn't a focus for practice.
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by krizay:
Originally posted by singfan:
Originally posted by BirdmanJr:
I don't know which player it was but they said

"The reason that we didn't do well at all during those plays, is that we didn't practice those"

Is Raye this stubborn not to practice the deep ball? No wonder Hill looks so lost out there on deep routes, if you don't practice them how are you supposed to connect with your receivers?


This is not the philosophy of our HC. We're going to run, even when they know we're going to run, remember?

We have a 56% pass to run ratio! Well if you include the sacks as a pass play. But doesn't include Hill's scrambles as called pass plays.

See please stop with the all we do is run mumbo jumbo! ALL OF YOU!


It's 56% because of last weeks fiasco. This is a BS offense.
Originally posted by ApatheticIAm:
I think that Raye might be as bad,or worse than Hostler. There I said it.

I shouldn't do so much thinking if I were you...
Originally posted by Blitz:
He's right with his analysis, IMHO. You say some can make the throws: Well, Hill can't make all the throws. He simply does not have the abiltity to make all the throws. Now you throw in an o-line playing like s**t, and you have just cut your already handicapped QB (because he can't make all the throws even under the best of circumstances) down to nothing. Hill takes a large support cast, there is no doubt about that. So, the root of the problem is the o-line, both run blocking and pass protection, followed by having a QB who can't make all the throws that a top notch QB usually can, even when not pressured.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying but it appears we, as fans, tend to only look at the most recent events with players. What we don't do is look at the bigger picture or even history. In the case of Hill, Hill DID make all the throws necessary in a Martz system that was designed to go down field early and often. Last year, Hill made ALL of the throws in tight windows and with confidence. He was allowed to get into a rhythm and his confidence to throw grew with each game, as did his confidence in his WR's and offense as a whole.

This year, I see zero adjustments by Raye, a you-can't-throw and don't-lose-the-ball attitude now forced on Hill, WR's and the QB are not even mentioned in the keys to winning according to Singletary and Raye and yet, with the minimal chances Hill and this ENTIRE offense has had to grow and develop, self-inflicted, it's amazing to me we've been able to do anything at all. Our 3rd down %'s are a direct result of poor, conservative play-calling and an inability of an OC and coach to adjust to defenses and play to a team's strength and supported by a HC's philosophy to play scared and close to the vest.

But I digress and repeat myself again; Hill CAN make the throws as evidenced last year in a system that fit him and this offense much better, even if it was pulled back by Singletary who, as evidenced even more, fired Martz b/c he couldn't (or wouldn't) be even more vanilla on offense. It was a "philosophical difference."

We are seeing the results right now of this philosophy and out-dated offensive game-plan but the QB is NOT to blame here, nor is the offensive line or the WR's or the TE's or the RB's nor are the fans. Players are NOT put in position to be successful.

It ALL starts with philosophy (at the top) and filters down to the field.