Originally posted by Brazilian49er:
Originally posted by Blitz:
Originally posted by Brazilian49er:
Originally posted by Blitz:
I am with you on your summation of your position, I have the same except:
I still don't know where you are getting this thing about our offense being serviceable under Martz. He simply did not score enough points to say that he was guiding a serviceable offense, and that was because his offense sucked ass inside the opponents 40. I really don't see how Mart'z is an improvement over Raye, I just don't see it. Maybe it just looks prettier? And, I do believe, Norv is stinking it up pretty bad down there in SD, which says a lot because the talent level on that O is WAY higher than what we have here. He has River's, he has Sproles, he has LT, he has Gates...much more talent than here..... and he is still stinking it up big time. And you think he can somehow do more with less, here? I just don't see it.
Of course he did. Our offense did not score enough points to be called a GOOD offense, but it was certainly serviceable.
And Martz is an improvement over Raye across the board. Yards, points, 3rd conversions, you name it.
To me what you're saying basically is, you're either Bill Walsh or you're garbage. And my point is that there are several different degrees of good/bad.
Here's my proposition: Martz/Turner are much better than Raye/Hostler.
Now, pointing out flaws in Martz/Turner's offenses is by no means a refutation of the proposition above. The refutation would be to either make the argument that Raye's offense is better or at least just as good and I'm saying that it can't be done.
That's not the refutation I was proposing. Nowhere did I say that Rayes offense was better, or propose to prove that it was. You have spun it around. This is what I said: I just don't see how Martz offense would be better than Rayes. Raye may suck, but Martz sucked too, there isn't a f**king difference in my book. They both suck. Why do you insist on trying to make Martz out to be something other than a different shade of suck? You might have a valid argument to me if Martz had actually guided the offense to more points scored last year, or even YPG, then I may believe that he could actually produce more wins than some other person who sucked too. A suck is a suck bro, they are the same.
Now, all the stats you listed as "better" are complete and utter pointless stats in the grand scheme. The only stat that truly matter's is the points for/points against. That is because teams are awarded a win based SOLEY on that one stat and not a single damn thing else. Third downs, yards, you name it, none of them mean jack s**t if you don't put points on the board, and Martz failed to do that, considerably, ranking 22nd. In short, he sucked in the primary stat he was responsible for, points for.
Now Hostler. There's a lot of mumbo jumbo blah blah blah going on this board about Raye/Hostler comparison's. It's complete BS. Raye's offense is NOWHERE as bad as the Hostler offense. Not even close. That was the worst ranked offense in 49er history, and Raye's offense is nowhere near that. Using the primary offensive stat:
Hostler: 219 points for the entire year.
Raye: 112 over four games.
Do the rough math in the head and Rayes offense would end up with 448 points for the season, over double what Hostler's offense produced.
Again, the Hostler/Raye comparison's are complete BS in light of the primary offensive stat used.
I will say one thing, they are both ugly offenses.
Now, out of curiosity, where does Raye's offense stack up with Martz's in the points department?
And how many of those 112 points came out of ST and DEF? And you're forgetting something crucial: Raye has by far the better D, which sends his unit to the field more frequently, giving him more chance of scoring.
You can't simply look at the points and draw a conclusion from there.
And for the last time, a suck is NOT a suck. 22 sucks, but sucks less than 32, that sucks more than 25 that sucks more than 10 and so on.
We are going to have to agree to disagree here. There comes a point where a suck is a suck. Martz was at that point that I call a suck. He sucked before he got here too.
So, for the last time, a suck is a suck and I don't give two s**ts the shade of the stink. You might, but I damn sure don't. So, agree to disagree.
Now we can go on arguing the intricacies and get nowhere. Things like "Raye has a better defense so on the filed more" etc. Fine, dandy, and even swell.... AND it's still not going to change the fact that Martz didn't score a lot of points, and that he sucked once he got to the opponents 40.
Now, we can also go into the stats this year about defensive and ST points you mentioned. Fine, swell, peachy even. My belief is it's still not going to change the fact that Rayes offense is nowhere near as bad as what Hostler's was, so far, in the primary stat that matter's for an offense points for. I don't have the time nor the inclination to go sort that stat out, nor the intricacies of it, nor the inclination to explain the reasoning behind why that stat is the beginning and the end to figuring what offense is worth a s**t and what offense isn't.... so if you want to believe otherwise, you can go and do the work to prove to me otherwise, and I will gladly submit I was wrong about that, should you do that. Absent of that, we will just have to agree to disagree, as I WILL hold my position that Hostler's offense was much worse, until proven otherwise. However, just to be clear, Norv, Hostler, Martz and the current (subject to change) Raye offense, suck. They all suck when you get down to it, and only Raye has the chance to prove otherwise, about 12 games worth of chance. The rest can kiss my ass as far as getting another crack it, because, they sucked in the past and I'm confident they will suck again.
Just to be clear, for the last time...a suck is a suck is a suck, and I don't give two s**ts about the shade of stink with each. Trading one suck for another doesn't make a lick of common sense to me. Hence, I don't buy the Martz or Norv woulda coulda shoulda making this offense anything other than a suck, past nor future. We will have to agree to disagree.
[ Edited by Blitz on Oct 13, 2009 at 20:04:20 ]
