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Whats wrong through 5 games....

Originally posted by ginseng1000:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
This is not a doom and gloom post. What happened yesterday does not spell the end of the season and it doe snot represent what the niners are this year.

However, through 5 games there have been a few patterns.

1) O-Line. I don't know whats up with this one. I actually like the players, so I dunno if I'm just wrong about the talent, If its something that can be fixed with existing personell, or if its a scheme issue. They seem to have trouble in BOTH pass protection and in run blocking. For this team to improve, this is the #1 unit that needs to improve.

2) Coffee. I dunno if its just because he's a rookie, or if he doesn't have the talent to make it, but even when the line makes a hole, Coffee seems unable to find it. It could be that he just lacks the field vision to find the hole or it could be that its all kinda to big for him now and he's playing timid. I'm not writing the guy off, not by a long shot, but SOMETHING isn't clicking with him.

3) WRs. This one may get a boost with Crabtree, but the WR core seems to have alot of trouble getting separation. Seeing Morgan get caught so easily from behind yesterday may explain why...he just doesn't seem all that quick in and out of his breaks and he doesn't have much speed. Bruce is showing his age.

4) Hill. He has been a big reason the team was ALMOST 4-0, but he has some problems that need to be addressed in the future. I like Hill and I'm not suggesting replacing him, but this team really needs to look at this position in the future. I like Nate Davis so maybe thats the future (and his best friend on the team is Crabtree...hmmm...), or maybe that means a guy not yet on the team, but I just don't see Hill as the long term answer. I'll love to see him stick tho and the #2.

5) Pass Rush. The 49ers have been able to manufacture a pass-rush through scheme, but at some point thats going to come back to haunt them...like it did yesterday. They still need a true big time pass-rusher.

None of these are earthshattering and aren't new, but if just a few of these could be resolved, this team really can contend. Even after yesterday, I think this is a playoff team...they just got kicked in the teeth.


1) I agree that we need to address the OLine either by draft or FE next year. I think we are seeing the effects of Scotty gambling on Marvel Smith (who retired). And we ended up sticking Synder in there with street bum Tony Pashos.

2) I am actually not against the idea of Kory Sheets competing with Coffee for the #2 spot. Coffee is a between the tackles type runner, where as Kory seems more like a change of pace back from Gore. I still think we give Kory Sheets and Glenn Coffee a chance to compete for #2. This is okay. I dont think we need to bring in someone else as long as we have Gore, coffee and sheets. I say we let go of M Robinson and activate Kory Sheets.

3) Okay..IMHO, Morgan is only a #2 guy. We really don't have a true #1 guy. When I say #1 caliber, I am talking about guys like Andre Johnson, Brandon Marshall, TO, Moss, Roddy White, etc? Man Roddy White does have some serious speed. Will Crabtree become a #1 guy? Only time will tell....but for some reason, I am not sold on Crabtree just because he lacks size and speed...

4) Hill is only a game manager IMHO. He's not a game changer or a franchise QB. You compare him to guys like Brees, Rivers, Matt Ryan, Ben R, etc...Hill just doesn't cut it. You cant expect to be dominant in the run game or short passing game if the opposing teams doesn't fear your long or 20+ yard passes plays...
I really do not think Shaun Hill or A Smith will be the long term solution.
I think we should give Nate Davis a shot next year.....and also draft someone. But i would like to see Nate Davis given a chance....he seems to have all the tools and skillsets (aside people claiming that he's dumb).

5) I am actually satisfied with our pass rush but I do agree that it was non exsistant in the Altanta game. Dunno what happened there. We still need a dominant DT.

Just a comment on your Crabtree comment...

I'm not saying he's a sure fire great player, but I don't think he lacks size or speed.

No, he's not 6'5" and he doesn't run a 4.3 40, but he's 6'1" and a half and 215 lbs. Jerry Rice was never considered small and he was 1/2 an inch taller and 15 pounds lighter.

As for speed, its the most overrated attribute to a WR. My Concern with Morgan is that he lacks speed AND quickness. The quickness is the important one.

I think Crabtree will be just fine.
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by ginseng1000:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
This is not a doom and gloom post. What happened yesterday does not spell the end of the season and it doe snot represent what the niners are this year.

However, through 5 games there have been a few patterns.

1) O-Line. I don't know whats up with this one. I actually like the players, so I dunno if I'm just wrong about the talent, If its something that can be fixed with existing personell, or if its a scheme issue. They seem to have trouble in BOTH pass protection and in run blocking. For this team to improve, this is the #1 unit that needs to improve.

2) Coffee. I dunno if its just because he's a rookie, or if he doesn't have the talent to make it, but even when the line makes a hole, Coffee seems unable to find it. It could be that he just lacks the field vision to find the hole or it could be that its all kinda to big for him now and he's playing timid. I'm not writing the guy off, not by a long shot, but SOMETHING isn't clicking with him.

3) WRs. This one may get a boost with Crabtree, but the WR core seems to have alot of trouble getting separation. Seeing Morgan get caught so easily from behind yesterday may explain why...he just doesn't seem all that quick in and out of his breaks and he doesn't have much speed. Bruce is showing his age.

4) Hill. He has been a big reason the team was ALMOST 4-0, but he has some problems that need to be addressed in the future. I like Hill and I'm not suggesting replacing him, but this team really needs to look at this position in the future. I like Nate Davis so maybe thats the future (and his best friend on the team is Crabtree...hmmm...), or maybe that means a guy not yet on the team, but I just don't see Hill as the long term answer. I'll love to see him stick tho and the #2.

5) Pass Rush. The 49ers have been able to manufacture a pass-rush through scheme, but at some point thats going to come back to haunt them...like it did yesterday. They still need a true big time pass-rusher.

None of these are earthshattering and aren't new, but if just a few of these could be resolved, this team really can contend. Even after yesterday, I think this is a playoff team...they just got kicked in the teeth.


1) I agree that we need to address the OLine either by draft or FE next year. I think we are seeing the effects of Scotty gambling on Marvel Smith (who retired). And we ended up sticking Synder in there with street bum Tony Pashos.

2) I am actually not against the idea of Kory Sheets competing with Coffee for the #2 spot. Coffee is a between the tackles type runner, where as Kory seems more like a change of pace back from Gore. I still think we give Kory Sheets and Glenn Coffee a chance to compete for #2. This is okay. I dont think we need to bring in someone else as long as we have Gore, coffee and sheets. I say we let go of M Robinson and activate Kory Sheets.

3) Okay..IMHO, Morgan is only a #2 guy. We really don't have a true #1 guy. When I say #1 caliber, I am talking about guys like Andre Johnson, Brandon Marshall, TO, Moss, Roddy White, etc? Man Roddy White does have some serious speed. Will Crabtree become a #1 guy? Only time will tell....but for some reason, I am not sold on Crabtree just because he lacks size and speed...

4) Hill is only a game manager IMHO. He's not a game changer or a franchise QB. You compare him to guys like Brees, Rivers, Matt Ryan, Ben R, etc...Hill just doesn't cut it. You cant expect to be dominant in the run game or short passing game if the opposing teams doesn't fear your long or 20+ yard passes plays...
I really do not think Shaun Hill or A Smith will be the long term solution.
I think we should give Nate Davis a shot next year.....and also draft someone. But i would like to see Nate Davis given a chance....he seems to have all the tools and skillsets (aside people claiming that he's dumb).

5) I am actually satisfied with our pass rush but I do agree that it was non exsistant in the Altanta game. Dunno what happened there. We still need a dominant DT.

Just a comment on your Crabtree comment...

I'm not saying he's a sure fire great player, but I don't think he lacks size or speed.

No, he's not 6'5" and he doesn't run a 4.3 40, but he's 6'1" and a half and 215 lbs. Jerry Rice was never considered small and he was 1/2 an inch taller and 15 pounds lighter.

As for speed, its the most overrated attribute to a WR. My Concern with Morgan is that he lacks speed AND quickness. The quickness is the important one.

I think Crabtree will be just fine.

You are right, Crabs is big and fast and low to the ground for his weight. He is also very shifty. If he can step up his route running he can be good.

Speed is not an issue. Guys like Keyshawn Johnson and Tony Gonzales don't have what you call elite speed. But they are good at catching the ball and running routes.
  • Blitz
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 7,858
Originally posted by Black59Razor:
Originally posted by 9erluv415:
Originally posted by CRH49:
You forgot offensive playcalling.

inexperienced head coach that seems to relish taking time outs to inspire the team.

Hard to do much if there is no blocking!

Why can't anyone get this through their heads?

Because they think football is something more than blocking and tackling. Lombardi said it and it is still that way:

"Football is blocking and tackling."

Notice that both aspects sucked ass in the biggest way yesterday.

[ Edited by Blitz on Oct 12, 2009 at 14:34:58 ]
Originally posted by Blitz:
Originally posted by Black59Razor:
Originally posted by 9erluv415:
Originally posted by CRH49:
You forgot offensive playcalling.

inexperienced head coach that seems to relish taking time outs to inspire the team.

Hard to do much if there is no blocking!

Why can't anyone get this through their heads?

Because they think football is something more than blocking and tackling. Lombardi said it and it is still that way:

"Football is blocking and tackling."

Notice that both aspects sucked ass in the biggest way yesterday.

Anyone that has played it should know it starts up front! Coaches say it all the time because its true. You can have the best QB, RB and WR on the same team being coached by Bill Walsh, but if we cant block...they are all useless!!!!

I don't know if its coaching or its just an attitude adjustment, but from what I see...the OL is still "patty-cake" blocking. I bet the OL's helmets are as clean as an egg!!!

[ Edited by 9erluv415 on Oct 12, 2009 at 14:40:15 ]
O Line
O Line
And O Line
Yeah did I forget to mention Oline.

WR's
Pass Rush
Play calling
QB
Underacheiving DB's (some of whom are over paid).
Originally posted by rxrunner:
Originally posted by danimal:
My opinion is and always has been over the last 7 years is.....that our BIGGEST issue is player talent. We just don't have enough worthy starters.

Take Nate Clements for example, I cringe when people call him a Great Corner. He is a good corner and nothing more. And he is by far our best guy in the secondary. SO what does that tell you.

Linebackers, we have one great player.
Dline, we have no great players
Oline, we may have one great player but that is debatable
Receivers, we may have one great player but that is debatable
Backfield, we have one great player.

Everything else we do is just talk, I give credit to Sing for extracting a high level of play from this team, but throughout an entire season this team will be exposed for the average collection of NFL football players that they are.



this

Pure nonsense.

Spencer and Clements are good cornerbacks.

We faced Matt Ryan, who is unlike any quarterback we have faced so far.

He stays in the pocket and doesn't get rattled by pressure in his face.

We have played some good OLD quarterbacks who get rattled easily with pressure.

That throw that Ryan made on the quick out where Clements got beat was a PERFECT throw. If the throw was not PERFECT (I mean perfect, down to the inch) the receiver never could have turned around so quickly, and in fact the pass would have likely been defended.

You can't defend a perfect pass, its just that simple.

We learned that in the Vikings game, and we learned it this past Sunday.

Trent Dilfer (of all people) a few years ago threw a similar perfect quick out pass to Arnaz Battle. The perfect pass allowed Battle to turn quickly upfield. He likewise scored a touchdown on the play.

A great quarterback changes everything.

Evidence? Hmm, gee, I don't know, how about... the ATLANTA FALCONS before Matt Ryan showed up?

We had not up to that point faced GREAT quarterbacking like that all season.

If we had Ryan, the score would have been the opposite.
Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
O Line
O Line
And O Line
Yeah did I forget to mention Oline.

WR's
Pass Rush
Play calling
QB
Underacheiving DB's (some of whom are over paid).

Correction: DB (non-plural) He's horrible, just horrible!!!!

Our other DBs are doing okay, especially Spence.
Originally posted by BrianGO:
Originally posted by rxrunner:
Originally posted by danimal:
My opinion is and always has been over the last 7 years is.....that our BIGGEST issue is player talent. We just don't have enough worthy starters.

Take Nate Clements for example, I cringe when people call him a Great Corner. He is a good corner and nothing more. And he is by far our best guy in the secondary. SO what does that tell you.

Linebackers, we have one great player.
Dline, we have no great players
Oline, we may have one great player but that is debatable
Receivers, we may have one great player but that is debatable
Backfield, we have one great player.

Everything else we do is just talk, I give credit to Sing for extracting a high level of play from this team, but throughout an entire season this team will be exposed for the average collection of NFL football players that they are.



this

Pure nonsense.

Spencer and Clements are good cornerbacks.

We faced Matt Ryan, who is unlike any quarterback we have faced so far.

He stays in the pocket and doesn't get rattled by pressure in his face.

We have played some good OLD quarterbacks who get rattled easily with pressure.

That throw that Ryan made on the quick out where Clements got beat was a PERFECT throw. If the throw was not PERFECT (I mean perfect, down to the inch) the receiver never could have turned around so quickly, and in fact the pass would have likely been defended.

You can't defend a perfect pass, its just that simple.

We learned that in the Vikings game, and we learned it this past Sunday.

Trent Dilfer (of all people) a few years ago threw a similar perfect quick out pass to Arnaz Battle. The perfect pass allowed Battle to turn quickly upfield. He likewise scored a touchdown on the play.

A great quarterback changes everything.

Evidence? Hmm, gee, I don't know, how about... the ATLANTA FALCONS before Matt Ryan showed up?

We had not up to that point faced GREAT quarterbacking like that all season.

If we had Ryan, the score would have been the opposite.

So I have been hearing for 7 years. But I do agree about the QB. If this same exact 49er team had Matt Ryan instead of Shaun Hill then my outlook would be completely different
Originally posted by CRH49:
You forgot offensive playcalling.

inexperienced head coach that seems to relish taking time outs to inspire the team.

Where were you a few games ago when Sing called timeout and then the defense stepped up?
Originally posted by ginseng1000:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
This is not a doom and gloom post. What happened yesterday does not spell the end of the season and it doe snot represent what the niners are this year.

However, through 5 games there have been a few patterns.

1) O-Line. I don't know whats up with this one. I actually like the players, so I dunno if I'm just wrong about the talent, If its something that can be fixed with existing personell, or if its a scheme issue. They seem to have trouble in BOTH pass protection and in run blocking. For this team to improve, this is the #1 unit that needs to improve.

2) Coffee. I dunno if its just because he's a rookie, or if he doesn't have the talent to make it, but even when the line makes a hole, Coffee seems unable to find it. It could be that he just lacks the field vision to find the hole or it could be that its all kinda to big for him now and he's playing timid. I'm not writing the guy off, not by a long shot, but SOMETHING isn't clicking with him.

3) WRs. This one may get a boost with Crabtree, but the WR core seems to have alot of trouble getting separation. Seeing Morgan get caught so easily from behind yesterday may explain why...he just doesn't seem all that quick in and out of his breaks and he doesn't have much speed. Bruce is showing his age.

4) Hill. He has been a big reason the team was ALMOST 4-0, but he has some problems that need to be addressed in the future. I like Hill and I'm not suggesting replacing him, but this team really needs to look at this position in the future. I like Nate Davis so maybe thats the future (and his best friend on the team is Crabtree...hmmm...), or maybe that means a guy not yet on the team, but I just don't see Hill as the long term answer. I'll love to see him stick tho and the #2.

5) Pass Rush. The 49ers have been able to manufacture a pass-rush through scheme, but at some point thats going to come back to haunt them...like it did yesterday. They still need a true big time pass-rusher.

None of these are earthshattering and aren't new, but if just a few of these could be resolved, this team really can contend. Even after yesterday, I think this is a playoff team...they just got kicked in the teeth.


1) I agree that we need to address the OLine either by draft or FE next year. I think we are seeing the effects of Scotty gambling on Marvel Smith (who retired). And we ended up sticking Synder in there with street bum Tony Pashos.

2) I am actually not against the idea of Kory Sheets competing with Coffee for the #2 spot. Coffee is a between the tackles type runner, where as Kory seems more like a change of pace back from Gore. I still think we give Kory Sheets and Glenn Coffee a chance to compete for #2. This is okay. I dont think we need to bring in someone else as long as we have Gore, coffee and sheets. I say we let go of M Robinson and activate Kory Sheets.

3) Okay..IMHO, Morgan is only a #2 guy. We really don't have a true #1 guy. When I say #1 caliber, I am talking about guys like Andre Johnson, Brandon Marshall, TO, Moss, Roddy White, etc? Man Roddy White does have some serious speed. Will Crabtree become a #1 guy? Only time will tell....but for some reason, I am not sold on Crabtree just because he lacks size and speed...

4) Hill is only a game manager IMHO. He's not a game changer or a franchise QB. You compare him to guys like Brees, Rivers, Matt Ryan, Ben R, etc...Hill just doesn't cut it. You cant expect to be dominant in the run game or short passing game if the opposing teams doesn't fear your long or 20+ yard passes plays...
I really do not think Shaun Hill or A Smith will be the long term solution.
I think we should give Nate Davis a shot next year.....and also draft someone. But i would like to see Nate Davis given a chance....he seems to have all the tools and skillsets (aside people claiming that he's dumb).

5) I am actually satisfied with our pass rush but I do agree that it was non exsistant in the Altanta game. Dunno what happened there. We still need a dominant DT.

Coffee is anything EXCEPT a between the tackles type runner in the NFL, they should have more plays with him bouncing outside...or screen passes.
Originally posted by danimal:
Originally posted by BrianGO:
Originally posted by rxrunner:
Originally posted by danimal:
My opinion is and always has been over the last 7 years is.....that our BIGGEST issue is player talent. We just don't have enough worthy starters.

Take Nate Clements for example, I cringe when people call him a Great Corner. He is a good corner and nothing more. And he is by far our best guy in the secondary. SO what does that tell you.

Linebackers, we have one great player.
Dline, we have no great players
Oline, we may have one great player but that is debatable
Receivers, we may have one great player but that is debatable
Backfield, we have one great player.

Everything else we do is just talk, I give credit to Sing for extracting a high level of play from this team, but throughout an entire season this team will be exposed for the average collection of NFL football players that they are.



this

Pure nonsense.

Spencer and Clements are good cornerbacks.

We faced Matt Ryan, who is unlike any quarterback we have faced so far.

He stays in the pocket and doesn't get rattled by pressure in his face.

We have played some good OLD quarterbacks who get rattled easily with pressure.

That throw that Ryan made on the quick out where Clements got beat was a PERFECT throw. If the throw was not PERFECT (I mean perfect, down to the inch) the receiver never could have turned around so quickly, and in fact the pass would have likely been defended.

You can't defend a perfect pass, its just that simple.

We learned that in the Vikings game, and we learned it this past Sunday.

Trent Dilfer (of all people) a few years ago threw a similar perfect quick out pass to Arnaz Battle. The perfect pass allowed Battle to turn quickly upfield. He likewise scored a touchdown on the play.

A great quarterback changes everything.

Evidence? Hmm, gee, I don't know, how about... the ATLANTA FALCONS before Matt Ryan showed up?

We had not up to that point faced GREAT quarterbacking like that all season.

If we had Ryan, the score would have been the opposite.

So I have been hearing for 7 years. But I do agree about the QB. If this same exact 49er team had Matt Ryan instead of Shaun Hill then my outlook would be completely different

So I guess we agree on the quarterback part.

Its just that, I think Justin Smith is a great player, and I think Spencer and Clements are very good corners.

Quarterbacking and likewise, pass rush are the most important things in football. This is also where we are weakest.

The weakest two positions are perhaps RT and RG; based upon their play so far.

The other thing is that we have gone from an OK offense (last year) to an offense which LEADS THE LEAGUE in three n outs.

I snapped at you because I am tired of all the defense bashing, sure we could improve our pass rush, but my God, we led the league in three n' outs before the Atlanta game and afterwards, we might be on our way for a three n' out record.

It was a problem BEFORE this game. Things snowballed in this game, but that can easily happen in a game if you lead the league in three n' outs.

Our offense (with the same players) was not this poor last year.

OBVIOUSLY our offensive "philosophy" has a large part to do with this.

[ Edited by BrianGO on Oct 12, 2009 at 15:14:37 ]
Originally posted by MSteitz468:
Originally posted by ginseng1000:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
This is not a doom and gloom post. What happened yesterday does not spell the end of the season and it doe snot represent what the niners are this year.

However, through 5 games there have been a few patterns.

1) O-Line. I don't know whats up with this one. I actually like the players, so I dunno if I'm just wrong about the talent, If its something that can be fixed with existing personell, or if its a scheme issue. They seem to have trouble in BOTH pass protection and in run blocking. For this team to improve, this is the #1 unit that needs to improve.

2) Coffee. I dunno if its just because he's a rookie, or if he doesn't have the talent to make it, but even when the line makes a hole, Coffee seems unable to find it. It could be that he just lacks the field vision to find the hole or it could be that its all kinda to big for him now and he's playing timid. I'm not writing the guy off, not by a long shot, but SOMETHING isn't clicking with him.

3) WRs. This one may get a boost with Crabtree, but the WR core seems to have alot of trouble getting separation. Seeing Morgan get caught so easily from behind yesterday may explain why...he just doesn't seem all that quick in and out of his breaks and he doesn't have much speed. Bruce is showing his age.

4) Hill. He has been a big reason the team was ALMOST 4-0, but he has some problems that need to be addressed in the future. I like Hill and I'm not suggesting replacing him, but this team really needs to look at this position in the future. I like Nate Davis so maybe thats the future (and his best friend on the team is Crabtree...hmmm...), or maybe that means a guy not yet on the team, but I just don't see Hill as the long term answer. I'll love to see him stick tho and the #2.

5) Pass Rush. The 49ers have been able to manufacture a pass-rush through scheme, but at some point thats going to come back to haunt them...like it did yesterday. They still need a true big time pass-rusher.

None of these are earthshattering and aren't new, but if just a few of these could be resolved, this team really can contend. Even after yesterday, I think this is a playoff team...they just got kicked in the teeth.


1) I agree that we need to address the OLine either by draft or FE next year. I think we are seeing the effects of Scotty gambling on Marvel Smith (who retired). And we ended up sticking Synder in there with street bum Tony Pashos.

2) I am actually not against the idea of Kory Sheets competing with Coffee for the #2 spot. Coffee is a between the tackles type runner, where as Kory seems more like a change of pace back from Gore. I still think we give Kory Sheets and Glenn Coffee a chance to compete for #2. This is okay. I dont think we need to bring in someone else as long as we have Gore, coffee and sheets. I say we let go of M Robinson and activate Kory Sheets.

3) Okay..IMHO, Morgan is only a #2 guy. We really don't have a true #1 guy. When I say #1 caliber, I am talking about guys like Andre Johnson, Brandon Marshall, TO, Moss, Roddy White, etc? Man Roddy White does have some serious speed. Will Crabtree become a #1 guy? Only time will tell....but for some reason, I am not sold on Crabtree just because he lacks size and speed...

4) Hill is only a game manager IMHO. He's not a game changer or a franchise QB. You compare him to guys like Brees, Rivers, Matt Ryan, Ben R, etc...Hill just doesn't cut it. You cant expect to be dominant in the run game or short passing game if the opposing teams doesn't fear your long or 20+ yard passes plays...
I really do not think Shaun Hill or A Smith will be the long term solution.
I think we should give Nate Davis a shot next year.....and also draft someone. But i would like to see Nate Davis given a chance....he seems to have all the tools and skillsets (aside people claiming that he's dumb).

5) I am actually satisfied with our pass rush but I do agree that it was non exsistant in the Altanta game. Dunno what happened there. We still need a dominant DT.

Coffee is anything EXCEPT a between the tackles type runner in the NFL, they should have more plays with him bouncing outside...or screen passes.

Dang you couldn't be more wrong...I'm sorry to say!!!

In-between-the tackles is Coffee game! Screen passes are for Westbrook/Sproles type players...which Coffee IS NOT!!!! Coffee is not fast, but explosive to the hole. His problem, AS A ROOK, is his vision. Right now he is just running where he is told to run. As he gains more experience he will see the holes and make those cuts.

Oh yeah...better run blocking would help. I mean if our OL is getting pushed back of course our RBs or pulling lineman is going to run into them.

[ Edited by 9erluv415 on Oct 12, 2009 at 15:16:24 ]
Originally posted by billbird2111:
this thread.

...