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Pass to set up the run

Originally posted by AKfanster:
Originally posted by backontop:
why not a play action on the first play of the game and take it deep to Morgan or Davis.


Why not just hit Davis over the middle? If the D is gonna clog the middle with run blitzes, throw the ball to where the blitzing defender WAS. Same with stacking the box with 8 or 9 defenders, attack the weak portion of the defense.

Raye needs to start making defenses pay for commiting to play the run. Pretty sure the league is on to his few plays he calls EVERY FREAKIN GAME. Draw, counter, screen, repeat.

However, the O-line is gonna need to block someone in order for that to happen. And so far this season, that hasn't worked out so well

This what I was talking about. It they know we're going running 60% of the time and when we are, we can't do much.
Walsh always passed to set up the run.
Originally posted by grizzlyadams:
Walsh always passed to set up the run.

Singletary is definitely not walsh though.
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by islavistan:
Originally posted by Darekster:
Just like the rest of the Niner Faithful I have been quite pleased so far this season, but Raye'S running at all costs bother's me.

I am not a coach, but it seems that when Shaun Hill passes successfully, the Niners seem to run the ball better. I will say this it seems that Raye is starting to pass first a bit more and it might just make it easier to run rather than the other way around.

Anyone have opinions on this?

With our OLine not playing well, its tough to pass to run. A sack on 1st down puts us in a hole and lets our opponents tee off expecting a pass play. A short run setting up a 2nd and 8 keeps opponents honest and could open up play action plays, screens, etc and eventually a manageable 3rd down. I believe Sing is really going to push the O Line this week and I look forward to see them against Atlanta. If we can by Hill 1/2 a second each play, I believe we will see more pass first series'.

did the team work on 3 second drills over the entire course of OTAs' and Camp, if Hill is going to hold the F'n thing longer than 3 seconds?!?!

I don't think that anyone can legitimately claim it's the OLine. There's going to be a time and point when a Rocky Bernard comes free and "schmears the @u33r" as the old sandlot game was named back in the day. Hill is just as much to blame for the Line issues as the Line is, if not more so. Wasn't he named Starter because he "protects the ball" better? Well holding the ball TOO LONG is one of the many facets of protecting the ball. If he's holding onto it when he takes a hit then it makes it easier to strip. And more and more Defenses are looking to strip sack a QB rather than just put him into the turf. I don't care how much easier the officials make it for the QB. Hill has to play smarter with the damn thing. Leaving it out in the open while he stares down his Receiver is NOT protecting the ball at all.And he done that EVERY game to date.

*Edit*But I digress, in theory with Shaun's superior short game they SHOULD be able to do that. But him holding the ball too long affects that negatively. *ediT*

~Ceadder

I agree he holds the ball too long, but in his defense, he has to have receivers open to throw too. Smith had the same problem. Its a vicious cycle; The line has to hold, QB has to get the ball out and recievers have to get off the line and get open. Maybe Crabs is the missing piece that makes things click.......
Originally posted by kemp_j:
I agree he holds the ball too long, but in his defense, he has to have receivers open to throw too. Smith had the same problem. Its a vicious cycle; The line has to hold, QB has to get the ball out and recievers have to get off the line and get open. Maybe Crabs is the missing piece that makes things click.......

These receivers are better than anything Smith ever had and they ARE getting open. The problem is Shaun is just staring down one receiver and if he's not open he dumps it off underneath, every time. Just because the one receiver he stares down doesn't get open doesn't mean no one else is.
Ok, so Hill and the O-line suck..... Put Smith in.......
Originally posted by grizzlyadams:
Walsh always passed to set up the run.

dude, Walsh never encouraged this horrible over simplification of pass to setup run or vice versa. He always said his goal is to use effective plays to setup more effective plays.
what bothers me the most is not that we run on every single first down, its the fact thats ITS THE EXACT SAME PLAY, run up the middle. How about a sweep? a run to the outside? a run to the inside? a reverse? i just dont get it
Originally posted by Daniel2778:
what bothers me the most is not that we run on every single first down, its the fact thats ITS THE EXACT SAME PLAY, run up the middle. How about a sweep? a run to the outside? a run to the inside? a reverse? i just dont get it

But if we do that, we might not hit em in the mouth. We might hit them in the shoulder or something.

Then we would be getting away from the number one part of our winning formula, remember?

Step one, "Hit em in the MOUTH." Not the shoulder.

It must be the mouth; very important. Its in all the commercials and billboards and everything.
Originally posted by AKfanster:
Originally posted by backontop:
why not a play action on the first play of the game and take it deep to Morgan or Davis.


Why not just hit Davis over the middle? If the D is gonna clog the middle with run blitzes, throw the ball to where the blitzing defender WAS. Same with stacking the box with 8 or 9 defenders, attack the weak portion of the defense.

Raye needs to start making defenses pay for commiting to play the run. Pretty sure the league is on to his few plays he calls EVERY FREAKIN GAME. Draw, counter, screen, repeat.

However, the O-line is gonna need to block someone in order for that to happen. And so far this season, that hasn't worked out so well

The problem is where the pressure is coming from and Ceaddarman is wrong about his analysis regarding the OL. You can work on a 3-second offense but that dictates, especially with the talent we have at WR, just what routes will be open. Our offense is "taking what the defense gives" instead of "attacking the defense". And you simply can't attack a D without better blocking (run or pass).

So what's happening is:

Team are seeing on film that they can be affective by applying pressure to the OGs - Atlanta watched the Rams to see what they were trying to do but didn't have the personnel to pull it off. 8 man run-blitz just in case we try to pass from a 2 TE set. OG are giving up serious penetration to the DL in the run and are incapable consistent pass-protection. Defense are learning in passing situations, just play man against the 49ers and put and force Davis to alter his routes because he and Hill haven't learned how to adjust (or Raye isn't adjusting the call).

OGs can't sustain blocks beyond 3 seconds which means the WRs are also not getting enough time to get open. Hill's passes are usually udnerthrown because he's throwing the ball well before the receiver is open in anticipation of blocking breakdowns. When he has time, you get his passes to VD for long gains or TDs. The beating is taking a toll because he's no long looking down-field and dumping everything short.

They can't run.

They can't pass.

I totally agree with you it all starts up front.

[ Edited by NinerGM on Oct 15, 2009 at 17:18:31 ]
I don't believe or O Line, WR's or QB are capable of that. Their best bet is to have Frank Gore do 200 yards a game and play incredible defense.
  • JC49
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 169
I think all of us are pretty frustrated with the offense. The whole pass/run question is starting to distil into a clear choice for me:

1) -1 to 2 yards
2) an incomplete pass or a larger gain

The run three times and punt gives me less hope than passing three times. At least passing on first and second down if you hit one for six to eight yards it sets up more options on third down. Draws might start to work on all three downs. The truth is I am so frustrated I just want to see some change, some adaptation. Stubbornness equates to stupidity at this point.

Atlanta exposed our defense. Other teams will watch the tape. Our D came out of the gate strong but teams adapt. Our defense will continue to be a strength but they can't win by themselves. They better start pulling some of the stops out on offense. They can't get much worse.
in this league...unless you're stacked like the vikes or dare i say miami...you have to toss the rock more to set up the run
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by AKfanster:
Originally posted by backontop:
why not a play action on the first play of the game and take it deep to Morgan or Davis.


Why not just hit Davis over the middle? If the D is gonna clog the middle with run blitzes, throw the ball to where the blitzing defender WAS. Same with stacking the box with 8 or 9 defenders, attack the weak portion of the defense.

Raye needs to start making defenses pay for commiting to play the run. Pretty sure the league is on to his few plays he calls EVERY FREAKIN GAME. Draw, counter, screen, repeat.

However, the O-line is gonna need to block someone in order for that to happen. And so far this season, that hasn't worked out so well

The problem is where the pressure is coming from and Ceaddarman is wrong about his analysis regarding the OL. You can work on a 3-second offense but that dictates, especially with the talent we have at WR, just what routes will be open. Our offense is "taking what the defense gives" instead of "attacking the defense". And you simply can't attack a D without better blocking (run or pass).

So what's happening is:

Team are seeing on film that they can be affective by applying pressure to the OGs - Atlanta watched the Rams to see what they were trying to do but didn't have the personnel to pull it off. 8 man run-blitz just in case we try to pass from a 2 TE set. OG are giving up serious penetration to the DL in the run and are incapable consistent pass-protection. Defense are learning in passing situations, just play man against the 49ers and put and force Davis to alter his routes because he and Hill haven't learned how to adjust (or Raye isn't adjusting the call).

OGs can't sustain blocks beyond 3 seconds which means the WRs are also not getting enough time to get open. Hill's passes are usually udnerthrown because he's throwing the ball well before the receiver is open in anticipation of blocking breakdowns. When he has time, you get his passes to VD for long gains or TDs. The beating is taking a toll because he's no long looking down-field and dumping everything short.

They can't run.

They can't pass.

I totally agree with you it all starts up front.


I agree with you. But the reason the 49ers can't do either is more of their own doing than what defenses are being thrown at them. The O-line play has been terrible, but if it were as atrocious as some are describing, Hill would never be able to get a pass off.

Mixing it up a little bit more would spread the defense out more, allow our passing game to establish an actual rhythm by design as opposed to being forced to (in 3rd and long situations or playing from behind), and will in turn allow our running game to open up.

They have a week to look at film to analyze what defenses are doing against us. Hopefully a shift in philosophy will come as a result of that. In todays NFL, you have to outsmart your opponents. Outhitting them isn't enough, especially when your offense doesn't hit that hard.

I think instead of openly declaring we are going to be this smashed mouth, run the ball down your throat team, we need to find out what we do well on offense, what our bread and butter plays will be. Plays that when called upon, we can out execute any team, regardless of what is being called. At this point, we don't know. We don't have our line from 2006, so simply running down hill isn't going to cut it.

I'm confident that at the bare minimum, we will not come out executing the same tired plays for the remainder of the season. SIngletary may be a rookie HC and it definitely shows, but he has shown over his first 14 games that he is very willing to make changes if something isn't working.
Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by AKfanster:
Originally posted by backontop:
why not a play action on the first play of the game and take it deep to Morgan or Davis.


Why not just hit Davis over the middle? If the D is gonna clog the middle with run blitzes, throw the ball to where the blitzing defender WAS. Same with stacking the box with 8 or 9 defenders, attack the weak portion of the defense.

Raye needs to start making defenses pay for commiting to play the run. Pretty sure the league is on to his few plays he calls EVERY FREAKIN GAME. Draw, counter, screen, repeat.

However, the O-line is gonna need to block someone in order for that to happen. And so far this season, that hasn't worked out so well

The problem is where the pressure is coming from and Ceaddarman is wrong about his analysis regarding the OL. You can work on a 3-second offense but that dictates, especially with the talent we have at WR, just what routes will be open. Our offense is "taking what the defense gives" instead of "attacking the defense". And you simply can't attack a D without better blocking (run or pass).

So what's happening is:

Team are seeing on film that they can be affective by applying pressure to the OGs - Atlanta watched the Rams to see what they were trying to do but didn't have the personnel to pull it off. 8 man run-blitz just in case we try to pass from a 2 TE set. OG are giving up serious penetration to the DL in the run and are incapable consistent pass-protection. Defense are learning in passing situations, just play man against the 49ers and put and force Davis to alter his routes because he and Hill haven't learned how to adjust (or Raye isn't adjusting the call).

OGs can't sustain blocks beyond 3 seconds which means the WRs are also not getting enough time to get open. Hill's passes are usually udnerthrown because he's throwing the ball well before the receiver is open in anticipation of blocking breakdowns. When he has time, you get his passes to VD for long gains or TDs. The beating is taking a toll because he's no long looking down-field and dumping everything short.

They can't run.

They can't pass.

I totally agree with you it all starts up front.


I agree with you. But the reason the 49ers can't do either is more of their own doing than what defenses are being thrown at them. The O-line play has been terrible, but if it were as atrocious as some are describing, Hill would never be able to get a pass off.

Mixing it up a little bit more would spread the defense out more, allow our passing game to establish an actual rhythm by design as opposed to being forced to (in 3rd and long situations or playing from behind), and will in turn allow our running game to open up.

They have a week to look at film to analyze what defenses are doing against us. Hopefully a shift in philosophy will come as a result of that. In todays NFL, you have to outsmart your opponents. Outhitting them isn't enough, especially when your offense doesn't hit that hard.

I think instead of openly declaring we are going to be this smashed mouth, run the ball down your throat team, we need to find out what we do well on offense, what our bread and butter plays will be. Plays that when called upon, we can out execute any team, regardless of what is being called. At this point, we don't know. We don't have our line from 2006, so simply running down hill isn't going to cut it.

I'm confident that at the bare minimum, we will not come out executing the same tired plays for the remainder of the season. SIngletary may be a rookie HC and it definitely shows, but he has shown over his first 14 games that he is very willing to make changes if something isn't working.

I wish I were as confident. There have been no changes tot he OL and this is after a week. I think it's more than just mixing things up. I should say they can't consistently run and that they can't consistently pass. The 49ers lead the league in 3 and outs for a reason. We usually run on 1st and second down. Understanding that even on 3rd and short that we're passing and not coming up with conversions tell me when the 49ers are in a passing down, opposing defenses challenge Hill and his protection.

Until we address the OG issue, WRs won't have enough time to get open. Mixing it up with screens, reverses and other plays require again superior blocking against decent to good teams that have the ability to counter what you would like to do.

However, we'll see in the coming weeks.