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Baas and Rachal

OL issues are always more complex than they first appear.

Consistency and coordination between the players is critical. If one guy is not doing his job, it makes the job of the guy next to him more difficult, often also appearing to be not doing his job.

Shuffling guys in and out of the lineup also hurts performance, even if they are both capable. It takes some time to develop the chemistry to make things work.

Right now the weak link is clearly David Baas, and there is nothing we have seen in the last three years to indicate that is going to be solved any time soon. However, in fairness, he missed most of training camp with an injury and now has an ankle sprain. Still, he has never been the most agile guy nor does he have the quickness one needs to trap or pull effectively. He was a huge bulldozer-type that Nolan wanted, and that is about all he is.

Rachal is really about 1/3 of the way through his rookie year after coming out a year early. He has had some nice games but the Ram games was his low point. We should allow him some time to develop.

But there is another thing that is troublesome and that is the design of the offense: Opposing teams are loading the middle of the box and that, combined with the poor play of Baas, is making it hard to run. More misdirection and counter plays would help but first...the team needs to start hitting some quick passing plays - slants and curls behind the linebackers. Until Raye starts forcing the LBs to drop off the line, the OL issues will not look any better. Hill can through middle distance well enough to force some respect but the ball must come out sooner. I don't know if Morgan is the guy or if someone else must step up but the current WRs don't seem to be getting open soon enough. In general, this offense needs an enema - get rid of the stuff that is just things up. We saw a bit of that in the second half but there must be a lot more against Atlanta if this team is to compete in the next four games...and after that, it won't get any easier.

In summary, the OL will appear stronger if the offensive design becomes more varied to take the pressure off a couple of guys who are struggling right now - that is what good coaching is supposed to do. You don't have to have All Pros at every position to win. The 49ers won their first Super Bowl with a very forgettable Dan Audick at tackle. The next year he was out of the league but Walsh's offense protected him and used his limited abilities to best advantage. That is the kind of thing Raye/Singletary will need to do if Baas is to be useful. Rachal will be fine with more time, IMO, but will need help in the meantime.
  • cools
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 1,332
Originally posted by E-49er:
Why don't we start Pashos at RT, Move Snyder to LG next to Staley and start Wragge at RG id Rachal continues to Struggle? I think Snyder is a better guard than tackle and Wragge held his own when he started due to injury a couple of years ago.

That could happen. Baas is looking like a bust, and will be a FA at the end of the season anyway, In the past Snyder has said he prefers playing the left side of the line.
plug him in a LG next to his buddy Staley and hopefully we dont have to worry bout that side for many years

Pashos at RT, with Sims backing him up for now
In the off season we sign a solid vet RT and/or draft C.Black unless they feel Boone has the potential to be a starter for us

Leave Chilo in at RG, he just needs more experience

There is also a longshot on the PS D.Radovich, I actually wanted him with one of our late picks in the draft a couple years ago, not sure hows he's doing though

[ Edited by cools on Oct 6, 2009 at 09:01:52 ]
The Niners may need to switch Rachal to LG in 2010. He is simply beat way too often by the undertackle. If he plays at LG, he'll be matched up with a bigger, and slower DT, in this case the NT.
Originally posted by cools:
Originally posted by E-49er:
Why don't we start Pashos at RT, Move Snyder to LG next to Staley and start Wragge at RG id Rachal continues to Struggle? I think Snyder is a better guard than tackle and Wragge held his own when he started due to injury a couple of years ago.

That could happen. Baas is looking like a bust, and will be a FA at the end of the season anyway, In the past Snyder has said he prefers playing the left side of the line.
plug him in a LG next to his buddy Staley and hopefully we dont have to worry bout that side for many years

Pashos at RT, with Sims backing him up for now
In the off season we sign a solid vet RT and/or draft C.Black unless they feel Boone has the potential to be a starter for us

Leave Chilo in at RG, he just needs more experience

There is also a longshot on the PS D.Radovich, I actually wanted him with one of our late picks in the draft a couple years ago, not sure hows he's doing though

Apparently you missed most of last season because Synder and Staley played together on the leftside and it was a horrible mix. They don't complement each other well enough because both aren't great run blockers.

Baas is definitely playing injured. On a few run plays I saw he struggled just to get back on his own two feet. He has the ankle sprain and I think I remember hearing he had plantar fasciitis before the season started and that painful injury can linger a full season.
Baas and Rachal are fine. This is typical knee jerk reaction stuff.

Solution, leave pashos or Snyder at RT, this will help Rachal build continuity.

If Baas sucks it up for two more games, then put either Wragge or Snyder or Pashos at Guard. End of story.

The line will be fine, this is more coaching than a talent issue.
  • Lifer
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 949
I remember McCloughan saying he didn't believe in paying big bucks for guards…... like they're a dime a dozen. Yet the man has invested top picks in both these guys: Rachal was #40 overall and Baas was #33 overall. Very disappointing performance for guys drafted this high.

The problem is not so much physical ability... both Baas and Rachal show flashes. The problem is with consistency. Not sure if that comes down to coaching or lack of continuity, but we need to get this fixed. God, I miss Bob McKittrick.
Originally posted by dj43:
OL issues are always more complex than they first appear.

Consistency and coordination between the players is critical. If one guy is not doing his job, it makes the job of the guy next to him more difficult, often also appearing to be not doing his job.

Shuffling guys in and out of the lineup also hurts performance, even if they are both capable. It takes some time to develop the chemistry to make things work.

Right now the weak link is clearly David Baas, and there is nothing we have seen in the last three years to indicate that is going to be solved any time soon. However, in fairness, he missed most of training camp with an injury and now has an ankle sprain. Still, he has never been the most agile guy nor does he have the quickness one needs to trap or pull effectively. He was a huge bulldozer-type that Nolan wanted, and that is about all he is.

Rachal is really about 1/3 of the way through his rookie year after coming out a year early. He has had some nice games but the Ram games was his low point. We should allow him some time to develop.

But there is another thing that is troublesome and that is the design of the offense: Opposing teams are loading the middle of the box and that, combined with the poor play of Baas, is making it hard to run. More misdirection and counter plays would help but first...the team needs to start hitting some quick passing plays - slants and curls behind the linebackers. Until Raye starts forcing the LBs to drop off the line, the OL issues will not look any better. Hill can through middle distance well enough to force some respect but the ball must come out sooner. I don't know if Morgan is the guy or if someone else must step up but the current WRs don't seem to be getting open soon enough. In general, this offense needs an enema - get rid of the stuff that is just things up. We saw a bit of that in the second half but there must be a lot more against Atlanta if this team is to compete in the next four games...and after that, it won't get any easier.

In summary, the OL will appear stronger if the offensive design becomes more varied to take the pressure off a couple of guys who are struggling right now - that is what good coaching is supposed to do. You don't have to have All Pros at every position to win. The 49ers won their first Super Bowl with a very forgettable Dan Audick at tackle. The next year he was out of the league but Walsh's offense protected him and used his limited abilities to best advantage. That is the kind of thing Raye/Singletary will need to do if Baas is to be useful. Rachal will be fine with more time, IMO, but will need help in the meantime.

Good analysis.
Originally posted by dj43:
OL issues are always more complex than they first appear.

Consistency and coordination between the players is critical. If one guy is not doing his job, it makes the job of the guy next to him more difficult, often also appearing to be not doing his job.

Shuffling guys in and out of the lineup also hurts performance, even if they are both capable. It takes some time to develop the chemistry to make things work.

Right now the weak link is clearly David Baas, and there is nothing we have seen in the last three years to indicate that is going to be solved any time soon. However, in fairness, he missed most of training camp with an injury and now has an ankle sprain. Still, he has never been the most agile guy nor does he have the quickness one needs to trap or pull effectively. He was a huge bulldozer-type that Nolan wanted, and that is about all he is.

Rachal is really about 1/3 of the way through his rookie year after coming out a year early. He has had some nice games but the Ram games was his low point. We should allow him some time to develop.

But there is another thing that is troublesome and that is the design of the offense: Opposing teams are loading the middle of the box and that, combined with the poor play of Baas, is making it hard to run. More misdirection and counter plays would help but first...the team needs to start hitting some quick passing plays - slants and curls behind the linebackers. Until Raye starts forcing the LBs to drop off the line, the OL issues will not look any better. Hill can through middle distance well enough to force some respect but the ball must come out sooner. I don't know if Morgan is the guy or if someone else must step up but the current WRs don't seem to be getting open soon enough. In general, this offense needs an enema - get rid of the stuff that is just things up. We saw a bit of that in the second half but there must be a lot more against Atlanta if this team is to compete in the next four games...and after that, it won't get any easier.

In summary, the OL will appear stronger if the offensive design becomes more varied to take the pressure off a couple of guys who are struggling right now - that is what good coaching is supposed to do. You don't have to have All Pros at every position to win. The 49ers won their first Super Bowl with a very forgettable Dan Audick at tackle. The next year he was out of the league but Walsh's offense protected him and used his limited abilities to best advantage. That is the kind of thing Raye/Singletary will need to do if Baas is to be useful. Rachal will be fine with more time, IMO, but will need help in the meantime.

What about Wallace at Guard. I know he was taken last year as a Center but I heard he was good.
Originally posted by bassmanr:
Originally posted by dj43:
OL issues are always more complex than they first appear.

Consistency and coordination between the players is critical. If one guy is not doing his job, it makes the job of the guy next to him more difficult, often also appearing to be not doing his job.

Shuffling guys in and out of the lineup also hurts performance, even if they are both capable. It takes some time to develop the chemistry to make things work.

Right now the weak link is clearly David Baas, and there is nothing we have seen in the last three years to indicate that is going to be solved any time soon. However, in fairness, he missed most of training camp with an injury and now has an ankle sprain. Still, he has never been the most agile guy nor does he have the quickness one needs to trap or pull effectively. He was a huge bulldozer-type that Nolan wanted, and that is about all he is.

Rachal is really about 1/3 of the way through his rookie year after coming out a year early. He has had some nice games but the Ram games was his low point. We should allow him some time to develop.

But there is another thing that is troublesome and that is the design of the offense: Opposing teams are loading the middle of the box and that, combined with the poor play of Baas, is making it hard to run. More misdirection and counter plays would help but first...the team needs to start hitting some quick passing plays - slants and curls behind the linebackers. Until Raye starts forcing the LBs to drop off the line, the OL issues will not look any better. Hill can through middle distance well enough to force some respect but the ball must come out sooner. I don't know if Morgan is the guy or if someone else must step up but the current WRs don't seem to be getting open soon enough. In general, this offense needs an enema - get rid of the stuff that is just things up. We saw a bit of that in the second half but there must be a lot more against Atlanta if this team is to compete in the next four games...and after that, it won't get any easier.

In summary, the OL will appear stronger if the offensive design becomes more varied to take the pressure off a couple of guys who are struggling right now - that is what good coaching is supposed to do. You don't have to have All Pros at every position to win. The 49ers won their first Super Bowl with a very forgettable Dan Audick at tackle. The next year he was out of the league but Walsh's offense protected him and used his limited abilities to best advantage. That is the kind of thing Raye/Singletary will need to do if Baas is to be useful. Rachal will be fine with more time, IMO, but will need help in the meantime.

What about Wallace at Guard. I know he was taken last year as a Center but I heard he was good.
The 49ers appear to see him as a backup to Heitmann at center. He was not all that impressive in PS games. It would not be wise to move a player in the middle of the season unless you were certain it would be an improvement.

Wragge seems to be the first guard in line after Baas/Rachal.

I don't think it is panic time...yet. Rachal has shown more than enough to give us hope for the future. Baas, though playing below average this year, is still not healthy. The change in scheme may help him from his play of previous years, but right now, he really needs to get healthy and step up his play. He was so bad against the Rams that Heitmann seemed to be helping him about 50% of the time.
  • Mex49
  • Member
  • Posts: 2,979
Originally posted by GoFD74:
Baas was constantly being pushed backwards and even knocked on his arse a few times. Not sure if he's still hurt or if he just sucks, but he needs to switch things up real quick.

When isn't he hurt. He has been a HUGE draft disappointment and should not be getting a new contract with the Niners unless he accepts a back-up role. He has never f**king played up to his draft potential... a big ugly white p***y
Originally posted by 9erred:
Baas and Rachal are fine. This is typical knee jerk reaction stuff.

Solution, leave pashos or Snyder at RT, this will help Rachal build continuity.

If Baas sucks it up for two more games, then put either Wragge or Snyder or Pashos at Guard. End of story.

The line will be fine, this is more coaching than a talent issue.

It's not knee jerk when the HC is unhappy with their performance.
Originally posted by j3xperience:
rachal needs to step his game up.

what we need to do is stop with the turnstyle subs at RT. i feel that it does affect rachal because of who hes playing next to. there is not continuity and no way to understand the tendencies when the RT is continuously switched out.

That is what I was thinking as well, but I believe Matt M said Pashos didn't play a single snap on offense against the rams. Maybe I am wrong about that - I will try to look it up when I get a sec.
Snyder played LG for something like our first six games last year. And he sucked at it. Big time. They even had to start rotating Baas in on running downs because Snyder was getting no push in the ground game.
This offensive line needs to get it together quick. We are just getting our tails whopped a the snap. I have confidence Coach Singletary will do something to get things in order. Hope it happens sooner, than later!