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OLB's in the 3-4/Sack Stats

Originally posted by BrianGO:
That tackle for a loss that Brooks made, was one of the most explosive plays I have ever seen from a linebacker. That was unbelievable.

It looked like he was out of the play and the running back (was it Peterson?!) would easily take the edge, but he exploded five yards upfield for the tackle.

Now I know why people have talked about his potential for so long.


But don't forget, Manny made some terrific plays as well throughout the game.
He blew up a running play on the left, and he got pressure on Favre early (I thought for sure he would get the sack).

I think Manny is one of the best run stuffing outside linebackers in the league.

I agree though, we should continue to work Brooks into the rotation.

Yeah, that play was like first and 10 to 2nd and 18 in a split second. It's something I noticed all pre-season, not just his hustle down the field or all game but that EXPLOSION...he closes so quickly for a guy who's 260 pounds.

Brooks: 3 plays = 2 solo tackles (including the 8 yard TFL) and 1 pass defended. Not a bad start.

Manny had a fantastic tackle-game against MN but prior to that, only had 6 tackles and a couple pressures. He's a solid player but he just doesn't have the skill set we need to run a proper 3-4 IMHO. I don't hate the guy at all...would love him in a 4-3 as an OLB but we run a 3-4 and we REALLY need pass rushers to make this defense a top 10 or even 5. Right now, we're #13 in the league giving up almost 320 yards a game (tied 9th in points allowed).

Not surprisngly, the top two defenses are 3-4 defenses and 6 of the 11 are 3-4 defenses. All of them, whether 3-4 or 4-3 are marquee pass rushing teams (eg. sacks): Denver, NY Jets, Indy, Giants, Hawks, Redskins, Pats, Steelers, Falcons, Ravens and then...us.
Originally posted by 49wyztoscore:
Good post. I would bet that Parys is among the top in QB pressures though. Just from the AZ game alone.

That would be another level of stats you can bring to this topic. Please feel free to provide that information for the aforementioned 3-4 OLB's. I would LOVE to see where we stack up.
Note: I added team totals in sacks (and percentages of the OLB's to team sacks) to the original post and the trend appears to holds true for 3-4 defenses...team sacks go as the OLB's go. Period.
Its ironic that Nolan's defense on players he passed up on during the draft.

Eddie Royal, Elvis Dumervil.

Elvis he passed up twice - picking Brandon Williams and Michael Robinson...

A player that never was and a player that will never be....
[ Edited by TDNiners on Sep 29, 2009 at 3:21 PM ]
Originally posted by TDNiners:
Its ironic that Nolan's defense on players he passed up on during the draft.

Eddie Royal, Elvis Dumervil.

Elvis he passed up twice - picking Brandon Williams and Michael Robinson...

A player that never was and a player that will never be....

And he goes to an ulta-aggressive scheme too. I don't even want to talk about it!
Some of you wanted to go beyond sacks. Using the Pro Football Focus link provided to us by BrianUKNiner. Here is how Manny/Parys stack up through the first two games against Arizona & Seattle:

Manny Lawson:
Total Plays: (124) of which (40) were run plays, (67) were pass-rushing plays & only (17) were in pass coverage
Sacks: 0
QB Hits: 1
QB Pressures: 3
Batted Passes: 0
Tackles: 4
Assists: 1
Stops: 2

Parys Haralson:
Total Plays: (120) of which (36) were run plays, (71) were pass-rushing plays & only (13) were in pass coverage
Sacks: 1
QB Hits: 3
QB Pressures: 9
Batted Passes: 0
Tackles: 3
Assists: 0
Stops: 4

They have a rating scale that goes from +12 tp -12:
Manny = -1.5 overall (-1.9 in pass rush, .7 in coverage & -.3 against the run)
Parys = 6.2 overall (6.2 in pass rush, -.3 in coverage, 2.3 against the run & -2.0 for penalties)

It'll be interesting to see the stats after the Vikings game.

Note: It appears each player is watched individually so their stats may differ from NFL.com
Some interesting rankings on our D through the first two games:

Smith - best 3-4 DE
Franklin - 10th best over all DT/NT and 5th best NT
Sopoaga - 32nd (should go up after MN)
Haralson - 2nd best OLB
Lawson - only 7 OLB's are worse (and most are injured); 42 total OLB's
Willis - 15th best ILB (should go down a lot after MN and the very poor pass coverage)
Clements - 3rd best
Spencer - 6th best
Lewis - 54th
Goldson - 100th

Roman - 18th
Bly - 32nd

Evans - 16th
Balmer - 21st
McDonald - 27th
[ Edited by NCommand on Oct 1, 2009 at 12:40 PM ]
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by FourNine49:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by FourNine49:
If you think about it, Lawons and Harralson are doing more than producing sacks. All of the hits, hurries, and ass. sacks are also helping us.

As long as were in the + in turnover ratio, that's fine with me. Not to mention that our D is getting respect as one of the tougher football teams

I'm sure you could say the same thing for ALL of the OLB's in the 3-4 but most are still getting sacks too. I did notice that many of the other LB's also have comparble tackles/assist but more INT's, FF's & passes defended. The difference = low sacks.

Yeah you're right . But given the fact that we had no personnel changes in the front 7 from last year, and we're seeing considerably better results, I'll take it. That just goes to show you that the coaching and mentality of this team is better off. GO NINERS!

Good point and I agree. We've got good depth along the line which has really helped too and so far, no injuries.

But I am worried b/c we only have one sack from our OLB's and they are going to wear down/injuries. We need a better rotation in there with Brooks/Harris.

While some people have posted that sacks are game changers, if the opposing team is passing and we wind up at 10th best in the league in opposing qb's rating after 3 games, aren't we doing something right? The hits, pressures, coverage, scheme all play to the objective and it's not just sacks, it's reducing the opponent's passing efficiency.

Focusing on one stat for a particular position (OLB) without considering the scheme (1-gap, 2-gap, stunts, styles, etc.) totally ignores the concept of TEAM.

IMO, Manusky/Sing are doing a pretty darn good job with last year's crew (coached up and with another year together).
Originally posted by nyfl9erfan:
While some people have posted that sacks are game changers, if the opposing team is passing and we wind up at 10th best in the league in opposing qb's rating after 3 games, aren't we doing something right? The hits, pressures, coverage, scheme all play to the objective and it's not just sacks, it's reducing the opponent's passing efficiency.

Focusing on one stat for a particular position (OLB) without considering the scheme (1-gap, 2-gap, stunts, styles, etc.) totally ignores the concept of TEAM.

IMO, Manusky/Sing are doing a pretty darn good job with last year's crew (coached up and with another year together).

Good post but I think you are slightly missing the point here. The point is that in the 3-4, it's the OLB's JOB to get to the QB and sacks are a big part of that; just like it's the RB's job to lead the team in yards from scrimmage, the MLB's job to lead the team in tackles/assists, etc. If you read through the rest of the posts, you'll also see that OLB's make up a large portion of the 3-4 defenses overall stats b/c that's what the defense is tailored to do.

We then went even further and found that of the of the combined 138 rushing attempts (their sole responsibility), combined they only have 1 Sack, 4 QB Hits, 12 QB Pressures, no Batted Passes, 7 Tackles, 1 Assist and 6 Stops.

Now, in your estimation, is this getting the job done?
Originally posted by NCommand:
Via official websites/depth charts

Stats: NFL.com

Through week 3, let's see how we stack up sack-wise to the rest of the 3-4 OLB's in the NFL:

Broncos:
Mario Haggan/Elvis Dumervil = 7 of their 10 sacks (70%)

Patriots:
Pierre Woods/Adalius Thomas = 1
Derrick Burgess/Tully Banta-Cain = 3 of their 6 sacks (67%)

Baltimore:
Terrel Suggs/Jarret Johnson = 3.5 of their 7 sacks (50%)

Dolphins:
Jason Taylor/Joey Porter = 3 of their 5 sacks (60%)

Browns:
Kamerion Wimbley/David Bowens = 2 of their 5 sacks (40%)

Cardinals:
Chike Okeafor/Clark Haggans = 2 of their 8 sacks (25%)

Chiefs:
Mike Vrabel/Tamba Hali = 1 of their 3 sacks (33%)

Packers:
Aaron Kampman/Brady Poppinga = 1 of their 5 sacks (20%)

Steelers:
LaMarr Woodley/James Harrison = 1 of their 5 sacks (20%)

49ers:
Parys Haralson/Manny Lawson = 1 of their 6 sacks (17%)


Jets:
Vernon Gholston/Bryan Thomas = .5 of their 4 sacks (13%)

Chargers:
Shawne Merriman/Shaun Phillips = 0
Antwan Applewhite/Larry English = 0 of their 3 sacks (0%)

Cowboys:
DeMarcus Ware/Anthony Spencer = 0 of their 3 sacks (0%)

I will keep track of these as the weeks progress to see how we are stacking up against the rest of the league. We have a total of 6 team sacks (5 by the d-line/DB's). While we seem to be getting moderate pressure, eventually, your OLB's primary job in the 3-4 is to get sacks and get sacks when it matters the most.

I noted that Haralson/Lawson would wear down this year b/c they will be taking every snap at the OLB positions and asked to rush almost exclusively and therefore, could end up with less productivity then last year where Lawson was subbed often and Haralson mainly came in off the bench on 3rd downs and teams weren't familliar with his game yet.

I'll let you discuss the importance of a balanced game but ultimately, the OLB's in the 3-4 have one job...rush the passer and rack up sacks (QB pressures and contribute to turnovers), just like it's the MLB job to lead the team in tackles or a RB's job to lead the team in yards from scimmage.

Note: I added team totals in sacks and the trend holds true for 3-4 defenses...team sacks go as the OLB's go. Period.

A measuring stick and compass for the coming off-season.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Some of you wanted to go beyond sacks. Using the Pro Football Focus link provided to us by BrianUKNiner. Here is how Manny/Parys stack up through the first two games against Arizona & Seattle:

Manny Lawson:
Total Plays: (124) of which (40) were run plays, (67) were pass-rushing plays & only (17) were in pass coverage
Sacks: 0
QB Hits: 1
QB Pressures: 3
Batted Passes: 0
Tackles: 4
Assists: 1
Stops: 2

Parys Haralson:
Total Plays: (120) of which (36) were run plays, (71) were pass-rushing plays & only (13) were in pass coverage
Sacks: 1
QB Hits: 3
QB Pressures: 9
Batted Passes: 0
Tackles: 3
Assists: 0
Stops: 4

They have a rating scale that goes from +12 tp -12:
Manny = -1.5 overall (-1.9 in pass rush, .7 in coverage & -.3 against the run)
Parys = 6.2 overall (6.2 in pass rush, -.3 in coverage, 2.3 against the run & -2.0 for penalties)

It'll be interesting to see the stats after the Vikings game.

Note: It appears each player is watched individually so their stats may differ from NFL.com

All i know is i see Manny in on a lot more plays then they are giving credit for. Hell on the 2 big plays by JS in the cards games was due to manny pushing his player into warner. This team is getting a lot of pressure on the QB.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by lamontb:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by lamontb:
In short the Niners just don't have a pass rusher on this team point blank. Besides from Haralson who is putting in a lot of effort I just don't see it from any LB on this roster. The d line3 has been playing lights out, but yet still no real outside rush. This is the week tha i expect to finally see Manny beat somebody one on one and make a play. But once again i'm probably expecting something from Manny that he just isn't able to do.

Yup! manusky has also been switching Manny/Haralson a lot too but neither have been effective in this regards. This is why I want them to start working Brooks in more b/c he seems to be a better fit for the 3-4 in terms of his skill-set. Having just one guy in there who can rush opens up opportunities for other guys as well. Both Sopoaga & Smith have played fantstasic so far opening things up for them both but the only ones who've cashed in are the d-linemen and in particular, McDonald who leads the team with 2 sacks in limited snaps.

PS: Screw Nolan and his #1 ranked defense!!!

Yea it's like i can't believe it Soap, and Franklin are playing like beasts. But the OLB's can't take advantage of that. And Nolan having a number 1 ranked defense is a clear indication of what this team is missing. A certified pass rusher. Dumervil's ability to beat tackles and create havoc makes the rest of there roster look 10 times better. While Manny can't even beat a TE. Just having that reputation around the league gives you a slight advantage,and gives opponents something to game plan for. Colts defense has horrible players But they look decent b/c Freeney and Mathis stay on the qb's ass. While folks always say it's easily the coach and his scheme it comes down to players. And I've been hard on your boy Brooks but it's time to get him in there more often and see what happens. I remember him making one nice tackle in the backfield and that was it though. Gotta eat against the Rams this week. Put the DB's in one on one coverage and attack Bulger/Boller all day long.

Brooks? I believe he was in on one series where he diagnosed a play beautifully, blew up the field and made an 8 yard tackle for a loss, then he knocked down a pass in coverage and I believe had a good pressure/edge contained well and then they sat him down for the rest of the game.

But in terms of his overall game, he hustles his ass off, has an EXPLOSION (2nd gear when he sees the QB, RB, TE or RB), is bigger, stronger then Manny, not as tall, better center of gravity, plays the edge very well while containing RB's and is better in coverage then most think. He also has the ability to bull rush and speed rush around OT's and does a better job of disengaging blockers. He's got the skill-set, the talent, the hustle and motivation this year...now he just needs to be worked into the lineup on a regular basis. In 3 snaps he did more then most of our entire individual defensive players did.

I too think that Brooks is going to be a great player for us. I think they don't put him in yet because he still is learning the scheme. I forget, but hasn't he been sidelined by injuries? I think his playing time will gradually increase over the course of the season.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by nyfl9erfan:
While some people have posted that sacks are game changers, if the opposing team is passing and we wind up at 10th best in the league in opposing qb's rating after 3 games, aren't we doing something right? The hits, pressures, coverage, scheme all play to the objective and it's not just sacks, it's reducing the opponent's passing efficiency.

Focusing on one stat for a particular position (OLB) without considering the scheme (1-gap, 2-gap, stunts, styles, etc.) totally ignores the concept of TEAM.

IMO, Manusky/Sing are doing a pretty darn good job with last year's crew (coached up and with another year together).

Good post but I think you are slightly missing the point here. The point is that in the 3-4, it's the OLB's JOB to get to the QB and sacks are a big part of that; just like it's the RB's job to lead the team in yards from scrimmage, the MLB's job to lead the team in tackles/assists, etc. If you read through the rest of the posts, you'll also see that OLB's make up a large portion of the 3-4 defenses overall stats b/c that's what the defense is tailored to do.

We then went even further and found that of the of the combined 138 rushing attempts (their sole responsibility), combined they only have 1 Sack, 4 QB Hits, 12 QB Pressures, no Batted Passes, 7 Tackles, 1 Assist and 6 Stops.

Now, in your estimation, is this getting the job done?

I too see the points raised above, including yours. I'd still say that if we are keeping our opponents passing to the 10th best based on QB rating, we are getting the job done. Can it be better? Certainly.

I might also suggest that our 3-4 is more of a 1-gap as far as the dline goes compared to the 'better 3-4's. We are also lackingt the dominant NT that is to occupy the oline therefore freeing up the OLB's.

My net at this point is they are getting the job done but it can be better. I like, most of the posters would like to see more sacks in general, and specifically by the OLB's...and it would be nice to see safety, corner, and MLB blitzes. Of course, it must be within the context of the scheme, the opponent, and down and game situation.

I dot think we are radically disagreeing...
Originally posted by SF4EVA:
All i know is i see Manny in on a lot more plays then they are giving credit for. Hell on the 2 big plays by JS in the cards games was due to manny pushing his player into warner. This team is getting a lot of pressure on the QB.

Not really, Manny would be credited for either a QB Pressure or a QB Hit on that play.

I would not say we're getting a lot of pressure on the QB either - the Jets - yes, that's a LOT of pressure and they live and die by the blitz as do the Broncos right now too (both ranked #1 & #3 defenses in the NFL right now).

We ARE getting more pressure then last year but most of that pressure is coming from the d-line (McDonald/Smith and safety/CB bliltzes) and NOT from the OLB's (particularly, Manny) which is their primary responsibility and the point of this topic in the first place.

[ Edited by NCommand on Oct 2, 2009 at 09:09:46 ]
Originally posted by Wubbie:
I too think that Brooks is going to be a great player for us. I think they don't put him in yet because he still is learning the scheme. I forget, but hasn't he been sidelined by injuries? I think his playing time will gradually increase over the course of the season.

Yeah, Brooks is more then familiar with our system having been in it almost all last year. That said, they switched him from the MIKE/TED spot to the WILL/SAM (outside LB) spots but he should be plenty versed in these positions by now and very familiar with the defense as a whole.

That said, Singletary seems to have an affinity for Brooks, taking him under his wing like he did with Davis who I see Brooks as the defenses version of Davis, ironically.

Brooks is coming off an injury though and he shined in the pre-season. I expect to see him get more and more snaps as the year progresses and I woulnd't be too surprised if he takes over Manny's spot the more we go to a pure 3-4. He was my wildcard player this year.