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Due diligence on draftees?

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
I called this contract problem back in April, and I'm sitting a million miles away from the action.

This organization just doesn't get it, and I'm not sure it will until changes at the top are made.

So, is the organization naive, or simply arrogant? Did they actually believe he would be thrilled with 10th overall money, and run to the dotted line?

So between where you live, and the Earth, exists Crabtree's contract demands.
The Moon.

That sure is a long trip for the 49ers negotiators.

Maybe you can tell them an easy way to get there, because right now they are stumped.
One thing is for sure, I know what "due diligence" is NOT.

Asking this clown for advice on someone's character...


[ Edited by BrianGO on Sep 8, 2009 at 15:55:43 ]
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
I called this contract problem back in April, and I'm sitting a million miles away from the action.

This organization just doesn't get it, and I'm not sure it will until changes at the top are made.

So, is the organization naive, or simply arrogant? Did they actually believe he would be thrilled with 10th overall money, and run to the dotted line?

They probably assumed he would be happy that they stopped him from falling any further.
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by nj49erfan:
With all do respect to a vet on this board this may be one of the worst posts I have ever read. Just so we are clear here you are mad because:

1. (Forget the fact that this is illegal by NFL rules for a moment) The 49ers were unable to contact all 15 or so people who may have still been available at the number 10 spot in which they would have picked if they were still there and ask the player if they would be willing to sign if we drafted them?
2. You would want us to pass up on a talent like Crabtree or someone of the caliber because they said they wouldn't sign with us?

Seriously? Really?

First, the Texans had the first pick and are allowed to negotiate with any player they want. Until the team with the first pick selects someone the next team drafting is not allowed to discuss any contract details with any draftee. This year was the first year the NFL allowed the team with the second pick to negotiate a contract with a darftee if the team with the first pick overall has already come to terms with the number one pick.

Second, the Texans did not ask who would sign. They asked how much guaranteed money it would take to sign each player. But again this is a luxuary only granted to the first team as if everyone could do it you could imagine a team like the redskins would tell Matt Stafford or Sanchez to hold out because they would offer a lot more money. Thus ruining the draft system all together.

Third, what draftee is going to tell any organization before the draft they will not sign?

Lastly, even if you could do this you take the best talent and assume they will realize 16 million guaranteed is better then no million guaranteed. To pass up on talent because you think they may not sign is stupid and negligent.

Now please proceed with calling me a newb lol.

Yes.

You get an opportunity to buy a Porche at a discount, but you can't drive it in the lower 48 and if you sell it, you have to sell it for less than what you paid.

You're nuts if you don't think teams don't have inklings if a player is going to be difficult to sign or not - AND - if that doesn't go into factoring of picks. Sorry, but those that praised this comment don't know what they're talking about.

It's not just about money - and how much it would take. It's who their agent is. It's if they come off as a hard-worker, how much they love the game, do they seem like a me-first kind of guy, who are they surrounded by and giving them advice. You KNOW who that is before you talk about numbers.

THAT"S due diligence.

Where's Harry Edwards - what did he think?

Oh come on now, lemme paraphrase your stance here.

Your definition of DD the way I see it is this.

"Bend over and consult your magic 8ball. If that doesn't work crap your crystal ball, clean profusely with Windex til you can see the future and then pass on anyone that remotely LOOKS like he could be a problem to sign."

Well if THIS is the case then you couldn't FIELD a team let alone draft one.

9erGM I agree with you ALOT because you put some thought into your stance. But in this instance you're wrong. Just on the tampering issue alone. Hell we get burned for just making INQUIRIES about a player we are looking to sign. Imagine if we actually had CONTACT with them what the consequences of that action would be.

~Ceadder
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by nj49erfan:
With all do respect to a vet on this board this may be one of the worst posts I have ever read. Just so we are clear here you are mad because:

1. (Forget the fact that this is illegal by NFL rules for a moment) The 49ers were unable to contact all 15 or so people who may have still been available at the number 10 spot in which they would have picked if they were still there and ask the player if they would be willing to sign if we drafted them?
2. You would want us to pass up on a talent like Crabtree or someone of the caliber because they said they wouldn't sign with us?

Seriously? Really?

First, the Texans had the first pick and are allowed to negotiate with any player they want. Until the team with the first pick selects someone the next team drafting is not allowed to discuss any contract details with any draftee. This year was the first year the NFL allowed the team with the second pick to negotiate a contract with a darftee if the team with the first pick overall has already come to terms with the number one pick.

Second, the Texans did not ask who would sign. They asked how much guaranteed money it would take to sign each player. But again this is a luxuary only granted to the first team as if everyone could do it you could imagine a team like the redskins would tell Matt Stafford or Sanchez to hold out because they would offer a lot more money. Thus ruining the draft system all together.

Third, what draftee is going to tell any organization before the draft they will not sign?

Lastly, even if you could do this you take the best talent and assume they will realize 16 million guaranteed is better then no million guaranteed. To pass up on talent because you think they may not sign is stupid and negligent.

Now please proceed with calling me a newb lol.

Yes.

You get an opportunity to buy a Porche at a discount, but you can't drive it in the lower 48 and if you sell it, you have to sell it for less than what you paid.

You're nuts if you don't think teams don't have inklings if a player is going to be difficult to sign or not - AND - if that doesn't go into factoring of picks. Sorry, but those that praised this comment don't know what they're talking about.

It's not just about money - and how much it would take. It's who their agent is. It's if they come off as a hard-worker, how much they love the game, do they seem like a me-first kind of guy, who are they surrounded by and giving them advice. You KNOW who that is before you talk about numbers.

THAT"S due diligence.

Where's Harry Edwards - what did he think?

Oh come on now, lemme paraphrase your stance here.

Your definition of DD the way I see it is this.

"Bend over and consult your magic 8ball. If that doesn't work crap your crystal ball, clean profusely with Windex til you can see the future and then pass on anyone that remotely LOOKS like he could be a problem to sign."

Well if THIS is the case then you couldn't FIELD a team let alone draft one.

9erGM I agree with you ALOT because you put some thought into your stance. But in this instance you're wrong. Just on the tampering issue alone. Hell we get burned for just making INQUIRIES about a player we are looking to sign. Imagine if we actually had CONTACT with them what the consequences of that action would be.

~Ceadder

Maybe we should start picking players way before they should be drafted to solve this problem
I guess I just wonder why the Niners aren't officially stating that they were prepared for this very unlikely scenario.

I guess I would feel better if they just told us that knowing there was a remote possibility he would demand more than #10 money, and they were prepared to never negotiate.

Tell me it was a calculated risk, otherwise I am just going to assume they got caught by surprise
  • nj49erfan
  • Info N/A
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by nj49erfan:
With all do respect to a vet on this board this may be one of the worst posts I have ever read. Just so we are clear here you are mad because:

1. (Forget the fact that this is illegal by NFL rules for a moment) The 49ers were unable to contact all 15 or so people who may have still been available at the number 10 spot in which they would have picked if they were still there and ask the player if they would be willing to sign if we drafted them?
2. You would want us to pass up on a talent like Crabtree or someone of the caliber because they said they wouldn't sign with us?

Seriously? Really?

First, the Texans had the first pick and are allowed to negotiate with any player they want. Until the team with the first pick selects someone the next team drafting is not allowed to discuss any contract details with any draftee. This year was the first year the NFL allowed the team with the second pick to negotiate a contract with a darftee if the team with the first pick overall has already come to terms with the number one pick.

Second, the Texans did not ask who would sign. They asked how much guaranteed money it would take to sign each player. But again this is a luxuary only granted to the first team as if everyone could do it you could imagine a team like the redskins would tell Matt Stafford or Sanchez to hold out because they would offer a lot more money. Thus ruining the draft system all together.

Third, what draftee is going to tell any organization before the draft they will not sign?

Lastly, even if you could do this you take the best talent and assume they will realize 16 million guaranteed is better then no million guaranteed. To pass up on talent because you think they may not sign is stupid and negligent.

Now please proceed with calling me a newb lol.

Yes.

You get an opportunity to buy a Porche at a discount, but you can't drive it in the lower 48 and if you sell it, you have to sell it for less than what you paid.

You're nuts if you don't think teams don't have inklings if a player is going to be difficult to sign or not - AND - if that doesn't go into factoring of picks. Sorry, but those that praised this comment don't know what they're talking about.

It's not just about money - and how much it would take. It's who their agent is. It's if they come off as a hard-worker, how much they love the game, do they seem like a me-first kind of guy, who are they surrounded by and giving them advice. You KNOW who that is before you talk about numbers.

THAT"S due diligence.

Where's Harry Edwards - what did he think?

Ok a cople of things here because this argument is just becoming crazy. Sorry but this is going to be lengthy.

1. Lets tackle the argument that you have to know the agent. Yes Eugene parker is known for having hold outs. What Eugene Parker is also known for is settling the holdout before the last preseason game (I think one went pass that but was settled before the season started). So the niners, now that they have done there due dilligence on Eugene Parker, should pass up on 5 or 6 years of Crabtree potential because they do not want him to hold out for 3 to 4 pre-season games? It is amazing how now that he is holding out everyone on this board knew he was going to hold out. So yes if you know in advance you can't drive your Porche and you buy it you are a retard. But this brings me to point 2.

2. Now that we see that NO agent, including the now famous Eugene Parker, has a history of holding a client out all year how would anyone, including the 49ers, know this would happen with Crabtree? So here is what I have heard so far:
1. The 49ers should have asked Crabtree's agent as part of thier due diligence before the draft what it would take to sign him.
Answer: This is illegal according to the CBA. In fact if the niners tell him they would be willing to offer 20 million guarenteed before the draft and the team that drafts him finds out that is tampering and we would lose another draft pick.
2. Diva like behavior.
Answer: It's the oly thing Eric Managini has ever said that people listened to. First of all, most WR's are diva's are charachters. So if you are not going to draft a WR based on this you are probably never going to draft one. Second Vernon Davis was a Diva we drafted him adn he signed. Again, there is no track record of diva like players holding out for a year so how would the 49ers see this comming?
3. Teams have inklings that someone will be hard to sign.
Answer: Really? Being the GM of the niners you must know for sure that all 32 teams knew he would be tough to sign. Also how did teams know he would hold out considering according to him he is only holding out for DHB money because he thinks he is better? So other GM's are soooooo smart they actually knew not to pick him because DHB was going to get a huge contract at 7 from the raiders and Crabtree would want more. Oh wait that can't be right because if he was drafted higher then 7 due to slotting he would get more money then DHB.

As you can see none of these arguments hold water. The simplest answer to a problem is almost always the correct one. An orginizations picks who they feel is the best talent during the draft. 99.9% of the time the player and his agent cave because they know the slotting system is what it is and its time to show up to work and start playing for your next contract. The 49ers did textbook drafting this year and the only thing that sucks is they ran into the .1% idiot who thinks some how some way if he keeps holding out he will get more money. But as I explained above you would have to be Miss Cleo to have seen this coming.

So your anaology of the car seems to be a over simplification of the facts to a large degree. But thank you for sparking this conversation. Living in NJ its not often I get to talk in depth on 49er football.
So if "outside" issues don't factor is there a reason Stafford was asked at length about how his parent's divorce played a factor in his life? I mean seriously. Sorry but Deion Sanders as the "recommendation" for Crabtree isn't due diligence.

Sure I could be wrong about this - and I'm willing to state that. There is no one on this forum who is absolutely unquestionably correct. This forum isn't a ego pump for me, it's a football discussion. Even when I was noob.
Originally posted by nj49erfan:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by nj49erfan:
With all do respect to a vet on this board this may be one of the worst posts I have ever read. Just so we are clear here you are mad because:

1. (Forget the fact that this is illegal by NFL rules for a moment) The 49ers were unable to contact all 15 or so people who may have still been available at the number 10 spot in which they would have picked if they were still there and ask the player if they would be willing to sign if we drafted them?
2. You would want us to pass up on a talent like Crabtree or someone of the caliber because they said they wouldn't sign with us?

Seriously? Really?

First, the Texans had the first pick and are allowed to negotiate with any player they want. Until the team with the first pick selects someone the next team drafting is not allowed to discuss any contract details with any draftee. This year was the first year the NFL allowed the team with the second pick to negotiate a contract with a darftee if the team with the first pick overall has already come to terms with the number one pick.

Second, the Texans did not ask who would sign. They asked how much guaranteed money it would take to sign each player. But again this is a luxuary only granted to the first team as if everyone could do it you could imagine a team like the redskins would tell Matt Stafford or Sanchez to hold out because they would offer a lot more money. Thus ruining the draft system all together.

Third, what draftee is going to tell any organization before the draft they will not sign?

Lastly, even if you could do this you take the best talent and assume they will realize 16 million guaranteed is better then no million guaranteed. To pass up on talent because you think they may not sign is stupid and negligent.

Now please proceed with calling me a newb lol.

Yes.

You get an opportunity to buy a Porche at a discount, but you can't drive it in the lower 48 and if you sell it, you have to sell it for less than what you paid.

You're nuts if you don't think teams don't have inklings if a player is going to be difficult to sign or not - AND - if that doesn't go into factoring of picks. Sorry, but those that praised this comment don't know what they're talking about.

It's not just about money - and how much it would take. It's who their agent is. It's if they come off as a hard-worker, how much they love the game, do they seem like a me-first kind of guy, who are they surrounded by and giving them advice. You KNOW who that is before you talk about numbers.

THAT"S due diligence.

Where's Harry Edwards - what did he think?

Ok a cople of things here because this argument is just becoming crazy. Sorry but this is going to be lengthy.

1. Lets tackle the argument that you have to know the agent. Yes Eugene parker is known for having hold outs. What Eugene Parker is also known for is settling the holdout before the last preseason game (I think one went pass that but was settled before the season started). So the niners, now that they have done there due dilligence on Eugene Parker, should pass up on 5 or 6 years of Crabtree potential because they do not want him to hold out for 3 to 4 pre-season games? It is amazing how now that he is holding out everyone on this board knew he was going to hold out. So yes if you know in advance you can't drive your Porche and you buy it you are a retard. But this brings me to point 2.

2. Now that we see that NO agent, including the now famous Eugene Parker, has a history of holding a client out all year how would anyone, including the 49ers, know this would happen with Crabtree? So here is what I have heard so far:
1. The 49ers should have asked Crabtree's agent as part of thier due diligence before the draft what it would take to sign him.
Answer: This is illegal according to the CBA. In fact if the niners tell him they would be willing to offer 20 million guarenteed before the draft and the team that drafts him finds out that is tampering and we would lose another draft pick.
2. Diva like behavior.
Answer: It's the oly thing Eric Managini has ever said that people listened to. First of all, most WR's are diva's are charachters. So if you are not going to draft a WR based on this you are probably never going to draft one. Second Vernon Davis was a Diva we drafted him adn he signed. Again, there is no track record of diva like players holding out for a year so how would the 49ers see this comming?
3. Teams have inklings that someone will be hard to sign.
Answer: Really? Being the GM of the niners you must know for sure that all 32 teams knew he would be tough to sign. Also how did teams know he would hold out considering according to him he is only holding out for DHB money because he thinks he is better? So other GM's are soooooo smart they actually knew not to pick him because DHB was going to get a huge contract at 7 from the raiders and Crabtree would want more. Oh wait that can't be right because if he was drafted higher then 7 due to slotting he would get more money then DHB.

As you can see none of these arguments hold water. The simplest answer to a problem is almost always the correct one. An orginizations picks who they feel is the best talent during the draft. 99.9% of the time the player and his agent cave because they know the slotting system is what it is and its time to show up to work and start playing for your next contract. The 49ers did textbook drafting this year and the only thing that sucks is they ran into the .1% idiot who thinks some how some way if he keeps holding out he will get more money. But as I explained above you would have to be Miss Cleo to have seen this coming.

So your anaology of the car seems to be a over simplification of the facts to a large degree. But thank you for sparking this conversation. Living in NJ its not often I get to talk in depth on 49er football.

I guess MadDog and others are Ms. Cleo.

And here's another prediction for you. The 49er's passing game is going to seriously struggle and it's because there's no pass-blocking.
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by nj49erfan:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by nj49erfan:
With all do respect to a vet on this board this may be one of the worst posts I have ever read. Just so we are clear here you are mad because:

1. (Forget the fact that this is illegal by NFL rules for a moment) The 49ers were unable to contact all 15 or so people who may have still been available at the number 10 spot in which they would have picked if they were still there and ask the player if they would be willing to sign if we drafted them?
2. You would want us to pass up on a talent like Crabtree or someone of the caliber because they said they wouldn't sign with us?

Seriously? Really?

First, the Texans had the first pick and are allowed to negotiate with any player they want. Until the team with the first pick selects someone the next team drafting is not allowed to discuss any contract details with any draftee. This year was the first year the NFL allowed the team with the second pick to negotiate a contract with a darftee if the team with the first pick overall has already come to terms with the number one pick.

Second, the Texans did not ask who would sign. They asked how much guaranteed money it would take to sign each player. But again this is a luxuary only granted to the first team as if everyone could do it you could imagine a team like the redskins would tell Matt Stafford or Sanchez to hold out because they would offer a lot more money. Thus ruining the draft system all together.

Third, what draftee is going to tell any organization before the draft they will not sign?

Lastly, even if you could do this you take the best talent and assume they will realize 16 million guaranteed is better then no million guaranteed. To pass up on talent because you think they may not sign is stupid and negligent.

Now please proceed with calling me a newb lol.

Yes.

You get an opportunity to buy a Porche at a discount, but you can't drive it in the lower 48 and if you sell it, you have to sell it for less than what you paid.

You're nuts if you don't think teams don't have inklings if a player is going to be difficult to sign or not - AND - if that doesn't go into factoring of picks. Sorry, but those that praised this comment don't know what they're talking about.

It's not just about money - and how much it would take. It's who their agent is. It's if they come off as a hard-worker, how much they love the game, do they seem like a me-first kind of guy, who are they surrounded by and giving them advice. You KNOW who that is before you talk about numbers.

THAT"S due diligence.

Where's Harry Edwards - what did he think?

Ok a cople of things here because this argument is just becoming crazy. Sorry but this is going to be lengthy.

1. Lets tackle the argument that you have to know the agent. Yes Eugene parker is known for having hold outs. What Eugene Parker is also known for is settling the holdout before the last preseason game (I think one went pass that but was settled before the season started). So the niners, now that they have done there due dilligence on Eugene Parker, should pass up on 5 or 6 years of Crabtree potential because they do not want him to hold out for 3 to 4 pre-season games? It is amazing how now that he is holding out everyone on this board knew he was going to hold out. So yes if you know in advance you can't drive your Porche and you buy it you are a retard. But this brings me to point 2.

2. Now that we see that NO agent, including the now famous Eugene Parker, has a history of holding a client out all year how would anyone, including the 49ers, know this would happen with Crabtree? So here is what I have heard so far:
1. The 49ers should have asked Crabtree's agent as part of thier due diligence before the draft what it would take to sign him.
Answer: This is illegal according to the CBA. In fact if the niners tell him they would be willing to offer 20 million guarenteed before the draft and the team that drafts him finds out that is tampering and we would lose another draft pick.
2. Diva like behavior.
Answer: It's the oly thing Eric Managini has ever said that people listened to. First of all, most WR's are diva's are charachters. So if you are not going to draft a WR based on this you are probably never going to draft one. Second Vernon Davis was a Diva we drafted him adn he signed. Again, there is no track record of diva like players holding out for a year so how would the 49ers see this comming?
3. Teams have inklings that someone will be hard to sign.
Answer: Really? Being the GM of the niners you must know for sure that all 32 teams knew he would be tough to sign. Also how did teams know he would hold out considering according to him he is only holding out for DHB money because he thinks he is better? So other GM's are soooooo smart they actually knew not to pick him because DHB was going to get a huge contract at 7 from the raiders and Crabtree would want more. Oh wait that can't be right because if he was drafted higher then 7 due to slotting he would get more money then DHB.

As you can see none of these arguments hold water. The simplest answer to a problem is almost always the correct one. An orginizations picks who they feel is the best talent during the draft. 99.9% of the time the player and his agent cave because they know the slotting system is what it is and its time to show up to work and start playing for your next contract. The 49ers did textbook drafting this year and the only thing that sucks is they ran into the .1% idiot who thinks some how some way if he keeps holding out he will get more money. But as I explained above you would have to be Miss Cleo to have seen this coming.

So your anaology of the car seems to be a over simplification of the facts to a large degree. But thank you for sparking this conversation. Living in NJ its not often I get to talk in depth on 49er football.

I guess MadDog and others are Ms. Cleo.

And here's another prediction for you. The 49er's passing game is going to seriously struggle and it's because there's no pass-blocking.

See now this I agree with. Though you hardly have to be Miss Cleo to see this one coming.

~Ceadder
Why did we have to be the team that picks Mr. Cashtree now being described as >

You have to question if the 9ers did their "character" homework 100% on Craptree.
  • nj49erfan
  • Info N/A
A few of you missed the point. Yes, everyone knew he might be a little bit of a holdout considering his draft day slide and agent. But like I said you don't pass on a talent like Crabtree because he may be missing a few weeks of TC if you get him inked to a 5 or 6 year deal.

But any of you who said you could see him possibility missing multiple weeks of the season or even possibly the whole season and re-entering the draft when we drafted him I am calling BS on that. Please feel free to correct me with quotes dated from April to the end of June, or July even, where anyone thought it would go this far.

Holdout = likely
Holdout the entire season = Only Crabtree could know. No Due diligence could see that because it is irrational and short sighted as there is no way he can get more money next year. Which was my point of my earlier post.
Originally posted by nj49erfan:
A few of you missed the point. Yes, everyone knew he might be a little bit of a holdout considering his draft day slide and agent. But like I said you don't pass on a talent like Crabtree because he may be missing a few weeks of TC if you get him inked to a 5 or 6 year deal.

But any of you who said you could see him possibility missing multiple weeks of the season or even possibly the whole season and re-entering the draft when we drafted him I am calling BS on that. Please feel free to correct me with quotes dated from April to the end of June, or July even, where anyone thought it would go this far.

Holdout = likely
Holdout the entire season = Only Crabtree could know. No Due diligence could see that because it is irrational and short sighted as there is no way he can get more money next year. Which was my point of my earlier post.

Except, when Craptree brought his "posse" to meet and interview with the Cleveland Browns staff prior to the darft.... Cleveland smartly digested and determined that Craptree spelled trouble with a capital "T'.

And they tried to warn everyone what they sensed about Craptree, at least to the teams that would listen.

[ Edited by BigMar on Sep 8, 2009 at 18:09:35 ]
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
I called this contract problem back in April, and I'm sitting a million miles away from the action.

This organization just doesn't get it, and I'm not sure it will until changes at the top are made.

So, is the organization naive, or simply arrogant? Did they actually believe he would be thrilled with 10th overall money, and run to the dotted line?


I don't believe the simple fact that this is happening means they didn't see it coming. With Eugene Parker's now well known hold-out M.O. I have to imagine Niner brass DID see clouds on the horizon and made the pick accepting the risk that it might come to this.
Originally posted by nj49erfan:
With all do respect to a vet on this board this may be one of the worst posts I have ever read. Just so we are clear here you are mad because:

1. (Forget the fact that this is illegal by NFL rules for a moment) The 49ers were unable to contact all 15 or so people who may have still been available at the number 10 spot in which they would have picked if they were still there and ask the player if they would be willing to sign if we drafted them?
2. You would want us to pass up on a talent like Crabtree or someone of the caliber because they said they wouldn't sign with us?

Seriously? Really?

First, the Texans had the first pick and are allowed to negotiate with any player they want. Until the team with the first pick selects someone the next team drafting is not allowed to discuss any contract details with any draftee. This year was the first year the NFL allowed the team with the second pick to negotiate a contract with a darftee if the team with the first pick overall has already come to terms with the number one pick.

Second, the Texans did not ask who would sign. They asked how much guaranteed money it would take to sign each player. But again this is a luxury only granted to the first team as if everyone could do it you could imagine a team like the redskins would tell Matt Stafford or Sanchez to hold out because they would offer a lot more money. Thus ruining the draft system all together.

Third, what draftee is going to tell any organization before the draft they will not sign?

Lastly, even if you could do this you take the best talent and assume they will realize 16 million guaranteed is better then no million guaranteed. To pass up on talent because you think they may not sign is stupid and negligent.

Now please proceed with calling me a newb lol.

are ppl just ignoring this post??