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Due diligence on draftees?

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Just out of curiousity, did the 9ers contact first rd picks 5-15 before draft day to see if any of them were drafted by us that they would indeed sign? Remember the Texans and Mario Williams instead of Reggie Bush, because the Texans knew Bush would not sign. Did we do any pre draft contacting like that, or did we just trust everything to luck?

To not do the above is not neglicence, it is stupidity, and results in the 9ers having the only unsigned first rounder in the nfl. That is an award we do not wish to have. Is anyone in our front office---scot, jed---still alive and able to actually manage a team , or are they on auto pilot, hoping that things just work out?

umm.. i do believe the texans drafted williams because pass rushers with that size and speed are A LOT harder to come by than RBs.. and oh, by the way, look at bush's career. i guess they knew a little something extra. im just saying, i dont think they passed on bush because of money reasons.
Hessian

Quote:
A) he would be available at 10
B) that DHB would get drafted ahead of him
C) that DHB would get such a ridiculous deal

Dude I think ALL of this things were highly probable.

A. Watch NFL drafts much? Someone ALWAYS drops lol. so why not Crabs?
B. Al Davis taking the speed guy over the guy who could not run a 40 was in NO WAY out of left field.
C. Back to B, since DHB going to Oakland was conceivable, you run the guideline for a #7(1st) WR taken. His deal was far from predictable.

I am sorry, but according to your logic you can have the #32 pick and watch Jason Smith fall to you and you just draft him and never even think that he might want to throw out the guideline system.

Basically, everyone and their Momma yellled out "STEAL" on draft day. When in fact, the Niners SHOULD have known, that really they were getting Crabs at the #7 spot not #10, the only Steal is that they did not have to trade anything to move up 3 spots
Originally posted by danimal:
Hessian

Quote:
A) he would be available at 10
B) that DHB would get drafted ahead of him
C) that DHB would get such a ridiculous deal

Dude I think ALL of this things were highly probable.

A. Watch NFL drafts much? Someone ALWAYS drops lol. so why not Crabs?
B. Al Davis taking the speed guy over the guy who could not run a 40 was in NO WAY out of left field.
C. Back to B, since DHB going to Oakland was conceivable, you run the guideline for a #7(1st) WR taken. His deal was far from predictable.

I am sorry, but according to your logic you can have the #32 pick and watch Jason Smith fall to you and you just draft him and never even think that he might want to throw out the guideline system.

Basically, everyone and their Momma yellled out "STEAL" on draft day. When in fact, the Niners SHOULD have known, that really they were getting Crabs at the #7 spot not #10, the only Steal is that they did not have to trade anything to move up 3 spots

perception and reality are two different things, and hindsight is 20/20.

When DHB was drafted, people yelled out "Reach" and "Mistake." So I don't think anyone expected that as much as you seem to believe. Regardless, no one believed that Crabtree would be the 2nd WR taken. Sure, anything is possible, but it wasn't probable. That's why everyone and thier momma yelled out "steal".

You said it better than me: someone drops every year, why not Crabs? why should he feel he is immune to the reality of his value being less than his own perception of it?

I'm still not sure why you think all this equates to the Niners front office not doing their homework.
Ask yourselves this.

Had the Niners passed on Crabtree, would the Niners have listed contract concerns as one of their reasons for passing?

I think they definitely would have
I can't really blame the team on this one.

It's pretty much an unwritten rule that you get paid according to your slot unless you're a QB. While you might have some hangups in getting a deal done it's usually done somewhat in the range of that slot. So there is really no way you can anticipate someone being so stubborn about wanting to break out of that slot.

I mean there are several players every year that slide and some slide a long ways and while they obviously aren't happy about it a deal does get done.
Originally posted by danimal:
Ask yourselves this.

Had the Niners passed on Crabtree, would the Niners have listed contract concerns as one of their reasons for passing?

I think they definitely would have

again, hindsight is 20/20
  • nj49erfan
  • Info N/A
Originally posted by English:
Originally posted by modninerfan:
Originally posted by nj49erfan:
With all do respect to a vet on this board this may be one of the worst posts I have ever read. Just so we are clear here you are mad because:

1. (Forget the fact that this is illegal by NFL rules for a moment) The 49ers were unable to contact all 15 or so people who may have still been available at the number 10 spot in which they would have picked if they were still there and ask the player if they would be willing to sign if we drafted them?
2. You would want us to pass up on a talent like Crabtree or someone of the caliber because they said they wouldn't sign with us?

Seriously? Really?

First, the Texans had the first pick and are allowed to negotiate with any player they want. Until the team with the first pick selects someone the next team drafting is not allowed to discuss any contract details with any draftee. This year was the first year the NFL allowed the team with the second pick to negotiate a contract with a darftee if the team with the first pick overall has already come to terms with the number one pick.

Second, the Texans did not ask who would sign. They asked how much guaranteed money it would take to sign each player. But again this is a luxuary only granted to the first team as if everyone could do it you could imagine a team like the redskins would tell Matt Stafford or Sanchez to hold out because they would offer a lot more money. Thus ruining the draft system all together.

Third, what draftee is going to tell any organization before the draft they will not sign?

Lastly, even if you could do this you take the best talent and assume they will realize 16 million guaranteed is better then no million guaranteed. To pass up on talent because you think they may not sign is stupid and negligent.

Now please proceed with calling me a newb lol.

good job noob

!!! Well, if you insist. But it was nice work, noob!

Thank you both for the kind words. And the Noob comments lol.
Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Just out of curiousity, did the 9ers contact first rd picks 5-15 before draft day to see if any of them were drafted by us that they would indeed sign? Remember the Texans and Mario Williams instead of Reggie Bush, because the Texans knew Bush would not sign. Did we do any pre draft contacting like that, or did we just trust everything to luck?

To not do the above is not neglicence, it is stupidity, and results in the 9ers having the only unsigned first rounder in the nfl. That is an award we do not wish to have. Is anyone in our front office---scot, jed---still alive and able to actually manage a team , or are they on auto pilot, hoping that things just work out?

I don't think that ANY team contacts a player to put a deal out that may or may not be offered.

You only do this with the 1st overall because the clock is ticking the moment players declare for the draft and it gives you an edge to how you are going to draft on the rest of the 1st day.

ALSO, we did this with Alex. It's nothing new.

But to say that it's negligent because we didn't contact Crabtree before the draft... well that's nuts Doc.

Two reasons, he STILL would not be signed 1st. And 2nd because we didn't think that we had a shot at him. Teams 1-9 weren't giving up the info as to who they prized at their spot. So that said are we sposed to contact 32 players prior to the draft and ask them "IF we draft you will you sign and what are you looking to sign for"?

Not hardly. In fact I would point out that would be counter productive as hell given that the PLAYERS are not prohibited from speaking to anyone. Once you start mucking with 32 players/ Agents you open a whole new can of worms and also leave us open to tampering charges. I know Aiello stated that he would not be investigating it regarding Crabs, but those teams are not the 9ers. If we do it I guarantee that we will get beyotch slapped for even having contact with the other team's player. Regardless of the circumstances. Remember the Lance Briggs tampering BS? I mean how else are we sposed to find out about the man that we are looking at?

~Ceadder
Originally posted by nj49erfan:
With all do respect to a vet on this board this may be one of the worst posts I have ever read. Just so we are clear here you are mad because:

1. (Forget the fact that this is illegal by NFL rules for a moment) The 49ers were unable to contact all 15 or so people who may have still been available at the number 10 spot in which they would have picked if they were still there and ask the player if they would be willing to sign if we drafted them?
2. You would want us to pass up on a talent like Crabtree or someone of the caliber because they said they wouldn't sign with us?

Seriously? Really?

First, the Texans had the first pick and are allowed to negotiate with any player they want. Until the team with the first pick selects someone the next team drafting is not allowed to discuss any contract details with any draftee. This year was the first year the NFL allowed the team with the second pick to negotiate a contract with a darftee if the team with the first pick overall has already come to terms with the number one pick.

Second, the Texans did not ask who would sign. They asked how much guaranteed money it would take to sign each player. But again this is a luxuary only granted to the first team as if everyone could do it you could imagine a team like the redskins would tell Matt Stafford or Sanchez to hold out because they would offer a lot more money. Thus ruining the draft system all together.

Third, what draftee is going to tell any organization before the draft they will not sign?

Lastly, even if you could do this you take the best talent and assume they will realize 16 million guaranteed is better then no million guaranteed. To pass up on talent because you think they may not sign is stupid and negligent.

Now please proceed with calling me a newb lol.



I called this contract problem back in April, and I'm sitting a million miles away from the action.

This organization just doesn't get it, and I'm not sure it will until changes at the top are made.

So, is the organization naive, or simply arrogant? Did they actually believe he would be thrilled with 10th overall money, and run to the dotted line?
Originally posted by nj49erfan:
With all do respect to a vet on this board this may be one of the worst posts I have ever read. Just so we are clear here you are mad because:

1. (Forget the fact that this is illegal by NFL rules for a moment) The 49ers were unable to contact all 15 or so people who may have still been available at the number 10 spot in which they would have picked if they were still there and ask the player if they would be willing to sign if we drafted them?
2. You would want us to pass up on a talent like Crabtree or someone of the caliber because they said they wouldn't sign with us?

Seriously? Really?

First, the Texans had the first pick and are allowed to negotiate with any player they want. Until the team with the first pick selects someone the next team drafting is not allowed to discuss any contract details with any draftee. This year was the first year the NFL allowed the team with the second pick to negotiate a contract with a darftee if the team with the first pick overall has already come to terms with the number one pick.

Second, the Texans did not ask who would sign. They asked how much guaranteed money it would take to sign each player. But again this is a luxuary only granted to the first team as if everyone could do it you could imagine a team like the redskins would tell Matt Stafford or Sanchez to hold out because they would offer a lot more money. Thus ruining the draft system all together.

Third, what draftee is going to tell any organization before the draft they will not sign?

Lastly, even if you could do this you take the best talent and assume they will realize 16 million guaranteed is better then no million guaranteed. To pass up on talent because you think they may not sign is stupid and negligent.

Now please proceed with calling me a newb lol.

Yes.

You get an opportunity to buy a Porche at a discount, but you can't drive it in the lower 48 and if you sell it, you have to sell it for less than what you paid.

You're nuts if you don't think teams don't have inklings if a player is going to be difficult to sign or not - AND - if that doesn't go into factoring of picks. Sorry, but those that praised this comment don't know what they're talking about.

It's not just about money - and how much it would take. It's who their agent is. It's if they come off as a hard-worker, how much they love the game, do they seem like a me-first kind of guy, who are they surrounded by and giving them advice. You KNOW who that is before you talk about numbers.

THAT"S due diligence.

Where's Harry Edwards - what did he think?

[ Edited by NinerGM on Sep 8, 2009 at 15:36:33 ]
I think, if we're reasonable about this, we look at all the draftees the Niners have taken in the last several years.

Was there a lack of diligence there? Have we had holdouts left and right? Drafted guys who are constantly in trouble with the law? Sure, we've made some terrible whiffs, but we've gotten some good players, too, all of whom I would argue are high-character guy whose first priority was to play football.

So one player thinks he's the greatest thing since sliced bread, and all of a sudden that's the front offices fault?

Please.
Originally posted by BurritoSmuggler:
Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Just out of curiousity, did the 9ers contact first rd picks 5-15 before draft day to see if any of them were drafted by us that they would indeed sign? Remember the Texans and Mario Williams instead of Reggie Bush, because the Texans knew Bush would not sign. Did we do any pre draft contacting like that, or did we just trust everything to luck?

To not do the above is not neglicence, it is stupidity, and results in the 9ers having the only unsigned first rounder in the nfl. That is an award we do not wish to have. Is anyone in our front office---scot, jed---still alive and able to actually manage a team , or are they on auto pilot, hoping that things just work out?

umm.. i do believe the texans drafted williams because pass rushers with that size and speed are A LOT harder to come by than RBs.. and oh, by the way, look at bush's career. i guess they knew a little something extra. im just saying, i dont think they passed on bush because of money reasons.

To add to the correctness of the statement, the Texans drafted Williams because they were building a team that can beat the Colts. How do you beat the Colts? Sack Manning.

Also see: Titans, Jaguars
Originally posted by danimal:
Originally posted by redrathman:
Originally posted by danimal:
great point, and evidently they did not do a great job with due diligence.

I would say a player falling is to be expected, it pretty much happens almost every year, so yes you have to do due dilligence even on unlikely players falling to you.

Some where along the line somebody should have asked themselves:
If Stafford dropped to us at 10, how much would he want?
If Jason Smith dropped to us at 10, how much would he want?
If Tyson Jackson dropped to us at 10, how much would he want?
If Michael Crabtree dropped to us at 10, how much would he want?

Being prepared with that kind of knowledge is exactly what due diligence means.

They all get paid roughly the same with a variance of a few million either way. It's called the 'slotting system' for a reason.

You just don't get what some of us are saying. I think due diligence means something different to me than it does to you.

I criticize the Niners because I do excellent due diligence in my own work, so I expect nothing less from others.

If I were a GM I would expect nothing less than a report on ALL prospects for our pick and a "estimated" demand figure.

That figure would be based on.

1. The Slotting Guidelines(some of you are calling it a system but clearly it is really just a guideline)
2. Where the "Experts" mock him at
3. Known tendencies of the agent
4. Personal factors, such as his background, personality, psych evals
5. His financial situation

I am in no way saying this would have changed my mind on pulling the trigger on the selection, BUT to go into this without at least understanding that Michael Crabtree at #10 is less likely to follow the Slotted GUIDELINE.....is just pure ignorance

And keep in mind I don't include asking the player how much money he is going to want. Ha. Due diligence also means you have to do your own independent research

I don't agree at all. Your DD is not the same as everyone else's DD. Maybe they did even more homework than you believe (uuuuuummmmm you missed health concerns though they failed that with Marvel Smith and got bailed out not a minute too soon) they did.

Just that they cannot account for variables(Deion & other narrow minded advice givers) around the league and in the life of a draftee.

You can TRY to plan for everything but I guarantee that as foolproof as your plan seems to be, there is no telling how solid the plan was until the time to put it into action has been and gone. And there is ALWAYS that unexpected variable that comes out of nowhere to bite you in the rear. All you can do is follow your game plan and hope that none occur.

If you've ever been in the Military, you know that the Plan of the Day does not always go off without a hitch. If it does then you party your ass off(unless on Duty) and thank your maker that all was right that day. If not you grab a couple of Guinness' and console yourself to follow through the next day.

~Ceadder
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
I called this contract problem back in April, and I'm sitting a million miles away from the action.

This organization just doesn't get it, and I'm not sure it will until changes at the top are made.

So, is the organization naive, or simply arrogant? Did they actually believe he would be thrilled with 10th overall money, and run to the dotted line?



~Ceadder