One more Alex Smith stat

I really dont care one way or the other as far as Alex is conerned but from a logical and objective standpoint...I still cant, for the life of me, understand why the hell people "count" his games post injury. It just doesnt make any sense.

I think the better question is:

Why do you guys count Alex's games in 2007 where he was clearly injured? Im not being sarcastic or anything, I'm seriously asking. Maybe I'm the dumb one who knows. I agree he was "dumb" for wanting to play with a separated shoulder but thats not the point. Is it counted because he "wanted" to play so therefore it gets held against him. I'd be asking this question regardless of who is behind center so it has nothing to do with Alex. It just makes ZERO sense to me to count these games against Smith or use them to make a case against Smith starting. None of those players you have mentioned in your (original) post have played with severe shoulder seperation and forearm strain for more than 1 game.

So anyone?

Originally posted by TexasNiner:

Originally posted by BrodieFan:
Many thanks to Oldman9er for an inclusion of facts, not that many people around here will let them get in the way of a good argument.

Well, like any facts, they can be used on both side. For every player he listed, you can find many, many more, who had bad second year stats and contintue to show that they were not NFL QBs.

The point isn't to say that he will turn it around and become a star, but rather it is too early to say what will happen. It is too early in his career (games played) to call him a bust yet, as proven by other players who didn't put up stellar numbers early in their careers.

Originally posted by wwrivers:

Originally posted by TexasNiner:

Originally posted by BrodieFan:
Many thanks to Oldman9er for an inclusion of facts, not that many people around here will let them get in the way of a good argument.

Well, like any facts, they can be used on both side. For every player he listed, you can find many, many more, who had bad second year stats and contintue to show that they were not NFL QBs.

The point isn't to say that he will turn it around and become a star, but rather it is too early to say what will happen. It is too early in his career (games played) to call him a bust yet, as proven by other players who didn't put up stellar numbers early in their careers.

Exactly right... imagine how you would ( or will ) feel if Alex does start (in 09 or 10) and he plays amazingly well and leads us to many postseasons. Don't sit there and say that it CAN'T happen. I remember well the similar crybabies back in the 90's that ripped into Aikman or anyone who supported him at first. Ooops. I really THINK that Alex will in fact be one of those QBs to revive his career in spectacular fashion. I don't KNOW it will happen though... no more than any of you KNOW he will not.

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by Jersey9er:

Originally posted by Apples:

Originally posted by oldman9er:
Meh... can't judge one player off of these numbers. Forget all the numbers from 05 and all of the numbers from games played post-injury. He put up better numbers than many notable QBs in their 2nd seasons (2006) and helped bring SF to 2-1 (2007) with Hostler as our OC. Numbers, Schmumbers...

Ya, I don't understand why people DON'T think Alex is good.

I mean, if you just throw out all the bad games he's had, all his mediocre games, interceptions, fumbles, incomplete passes and all generic brain farts, it's clear that he should be the starter.

It's because some people are gonna hate on the kid regardless. It's just in their nature i guess. It's funny because if you compare eli's superbowl year and smith's 06 year. They are almost identical. Not to mention Eli had almost worse rating, but he's still looked at as a winning qb. I mean it's about the qb, and the talent around him that go hand in hand. And during eli's year, you didnt have to worry about the tons of drops from vd, and djack that year. Overall, the kid isn't a bust yet, and articles from both matts, espn, nfl network, all say he's not bust yet, and may still show sumthing. It's just some of the hating zoners, that are gonna hate no matter what.

here are some interesting stats, as you alluded to...

Alex had a better 2nd year ( his only full year ) than Troy Aikman's 2nd year, and clearly, Aikman had a much better team and stability around him.

quick, look away, before the reality shames some of you

Alex Smith - 2006 ( year 2 )
16 games - 257/442 - 58.1% - 2,890 yds - 6.5 avr - 16 TD/16 INT - QBR - 74.8
-

Troy Aikman - 1990 ( year 2, and already 11 first year games played)
15 games - 226/399 - 56.6% - 2,579 yds - 6.5 avr - 11 TD/18 INT - QBR - 66.6
(consider that they had Mike Irvin, Emmitt Smith, Jay Novacek, and an OL consisting of Kevin Gogan, Nate Netwon, Stepnoski, Zimmerman, Tuinei, etc.)
-

Matt Hasselbeck - 2001 (sits for 2 years, year 3 in Seattle)
13 games - 176/321 - 54.8% - 2,023 ys - 6.3 avr. - 7 TD/8 INT - QBR - 70.9
-

Drew Brees - 2002 ( year 2 )
16 games - 320/526 - 60.8% - 3,284 ys - 6.2 avr. - 17 TD/16 INT - QBR - 76.9
-

Eli Manning - 2005 ( year 2 )
16 games - 294/557 - 52.8% - 3,762 yds - 6.8 avr - 24 TD/17 INT - QBR - 75.9
(oh by the way, Eli's 4th season numbers were worse)
-

beautiful

Originally posted by TexasNiner:

Originally posted by BrodieFan:
Many thanks to Oldman9er for an inclusion of facts, not that many people around here will let them get in the way of a good argument.

Well, like any facts, they can be used on both side. For every player he listed, you can find many, many more, who had bad second year stats and contintue to show that they were not NFL QBs.

The rare exceptions that struggled early and righted the ship, have no more bearing on Alex's ability to do that than the ones who fail have to his ability to fail.

But the bottom line, is that he has been the worst starting QB during his tenure in the NFL. Although we have been far from great, it's hard to say we were the WORST team in the NFL at the time, so QBs in worse situations put up better numbers.

Certainly that could change, but what has happened is what has happened. There are no two ways around it. Whatever reasons, excuses, etc.. there are, we weren't the only team in the NFL to have issues and Alex wasn't the only QB with health or line problems.

Without including or excluding any information for any reason that favors one side or the other, the net result are some pretty damning numbers.

We can only hope he's in the small percentage of QBs who turn it around after that. It certainly isn't the norm.

first of all alex hasn't had a tenure yet. second, link if it's a fact or your just a plain hater!

Originally posted by BrodieFan:
"Until then he is just another BUST, even worst than that Ryan Leaf catagory because Leaf wasn't a #1 overall pick!"

Oh please. That's really stretching. Leaf and Manning were both consensus number one picks. Half those watching predicted Manning and half predicted Leaf. Leaf got run off the team that drafted him for being a big a-hole and not producing. So, he is, by definition, a bust. Smith is still competing in good faith and still retained by the team that drafted him. So, he is, by definition, NOT a bust.

He is Competing with SHAUN HILL! He is a bust, was Shaun Hill even drafted?
Leaf was not a #1 overall pick no matter how you swing it, A. Smith was and he just like Leaf is a bust!

Originally posted by fan49:

Originally posted by fan49:

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by TexasNiner:
ESPN just had a bit on about Vince Young, and how his future might be someplace other than Tennesee.

They showed a list of the bottom 5 passers in the NFL since 2006 (based on passer rating), and here's how it breaks down:

VY: 68.8
Derek Anderson: 75.2
Eli Manning: 78.9
Jon Kitna: 79.6
JP Losman: 79.6


I was surprised that Alex wasn't in that group, but the minimum games started to qualify was 25.

Alex only played in 23 games in that span, so he just missed the cut. Had he been eligible, he would have been at the top (bottom) of the pack.

His passer rating for that time period would be an even 66.0, easily the worst in the league.

And keep in mind this does NOT include his rookie numbers, which were even worse.

I know he's looking good in some practices so far, but these numbers scare me.

He sucks! He's a bust, and the only reason he is still on our squad is to try and make the GM seem like he didn't flop on a number 1 overall pick!

All of the talk about him looking great is all fine and dandy, lets see it in a real game situation. Until then he is just another BUST, even worst than that Ryan Leaf catagory because Leaf wasn't a #1 overall pick!

you know how i know your gay...... you can't keep leaf or smith out of your mouth.

Gay? LOL, you are on A. Smith's nuts that hard? Did my comments about him being a bust make you think about my sexuality?

ya and he also tried to play with a BROKE ASS SHOULDER....

LOL i really cant wait to see the comments when Smith starts and plays good....

Originally posted by 49ersMan420:
ya and he also tried to play with a BROKE ASS SHOULDER....

He was a BUST long before the shoulder issue my friend.

Originally posted by Apples:

Originally posted by oldman9er:
Meh... can't judge one player off of these numbers. Forget all the numbers from 05 and all of the numbers from games played post-injury. He put up better numbers than many notable QBs in their 2nd seasons (2006) and helped bring SF to 2-1 (2007) with Hostler as our OC. Numbers, Schmumbers...

Ya, I don't understand why people DON'T think Alex is good.

I mean, if you just throw out all the bad games he's had, all his mediocre games, interceptions, fumbles, incomplete passes and all generic brain farts, it's clear that he should be the starter.

A bunch of posters appear to have missed the fact that Apples' post was sarcastic. If you do the same for JTO, he's a Hall of Famer.

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by BrodieFan:
"Until then he is just another BUST, even worst than that Ryan Leaf catagory because Leaf wasn't a #1 overall pick!"

Oh please. That's really stretching. Leaf and Manning were both consensus number one picks. Half those watching predicted Manning and half predicted Leaf. Leaf got run off the team that drafted him for being a big a-hole and not producing. So, he is, by definition, a bust. Smith is still competing in good faith and still retained by the team that drafted him. So, he is, by definition, NOT a bust.

He is Competing with SHAUN HILL! He is a bust, was Shaun Hill even drafted?
Leaf was not a #1 overall pick no matter how you swing it, A. Smith was and he just like Leaf is a bust!

Oh no! I forgot that where you get drafted is how good you are. Shaun Hill wasn't drafted so he sucks! By your logic, Alex Smith is one of the best players in the league!!! Thanks for clearing that up!!!!! Great Post!!!!

Originally posted by 23zack80:

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by BrodieFan:
"Until then he is just another BUST, even worst than that Ryan Leaf catagory because Leaf wasn't a #1 overall pick!"

Oh please. That's really stretching. Leaf and Manning were both consensus number one picks. Half those watching predicted Manning and half predicted Leaf. Leaf got run off the team that drafted him for being a big a-hole and not producing. So, he is, by definition, a bust. Smith is still competing in good faith and still retained by the team that drafted him. So, he is, by definition, NOT a bust.

He is Competing with SHAUN HILL! He is a bust, was Shaun Hill even drafted?
Leaf was not a #1 overall pick no matter how you swing it, A. Smith was and he just like Leaf is a bust!

Oh no! I forgot that where you get drafted is how good you are. Shaun Hill wasn't drafted so he sucks! By your logic, Alex Smith is one of the best players in the league!!! Thanks for clearing that up!!!!! Great Post!!!!

LOL, you don't get drafted #1 overall for nothing.

OWNED!

Originally posted by glorydayz:

Originally posted by 49ersMan420:
ya and he also tried to play with a BROKE ASS SHOULDER....

He was a BUST long before the shoulder issue my friend.

is the concept of a quarterback developing foreign to many people on this board?

when the 49ers took smith, remember that they said that they might not be taking the guy most ready right then to play, but rather the guy they thought would be best 4 years down the line.....

smith sucked 1st year, but (1) the west coast offense was not the best fit for him---if i'm a gm or coach and making such a tremendous investment in a player, I am probaly going to run an offense that plays to his strengths (2) nolan blew the development of alex smith big time---he made his 1st start vs the then undefeated colts---what a way to try to build a young players confidence...

still smith developed in his rookie year, as evidenced by the fact that the team won vs rams and texans at year's end with smith starting---and remember the 2005 49ers were a really bad team, with little talent---


year 2, niners got a coordinator who ran an offense better fitting the skills of smith, and the improvement was substantial....niners ended the year strong and were a favorite of many scribes and media people as 2007 darkhorse---obviously others noticed smith's development (would espn the mag do a feature on 49ers as a team on the come if they didnt think smith was developing????)

smith played 3 games in 2007 before being injured...his stats were not great but (1)hostler was the o-coordinator--a disaster all would agree (2) the oline was not good at all at the start of 2007....the 1st game vs cards, smith had little time to throw---this is not an excuse but rather a fact---all you have to do is watch the game...indeed the poor oline play led to smith's injury----warhop was not pulling his weight and was ultimately fired...(3) the receiver play in the 1st 3 games of 2007 was terrible....game 1 vs cards, early in game jackson short arms a nice pass over the middle near goalline that should have been a score, and then he drops a perfectly placed deep pass on the last drive...battle catches a very nicely thrown pass on last drive near end that should have been a score, but he fumbles ball in end zone....the next week vs rams jackson dropped another long pass, and then vs steelers, davis loses a deep pass downfield when hit by polamulu, when nienrs were still in game...indeed the stats inc web site run by kc joyner printed an article about how many catchable passes niners receivers dropped early in the season..still the niners were 2-1, with smith leading the comeback vs cards, and team playing pittsburgh tough in pittsburgh

when hurt, alex smith was developing into a good quarterback....as noted, many try to reduce smith's worth by focusing on the 3 games he tried to play after his shoulder was shredded....barrows article yesterday quoted smith's surgeon dr andrews comments on how he couldnt figure how he played at all with the tendons sheared from the shoulder...

smith is still only 25, he has had his devlopment slowed by injury and the idiot nolan, but the niners should stick to the orginal plan of developing their young qb

Originally posted by TexasNiner:
ESPN just had a bit on about Vince Young, and how his future might be someplace other than Tennesee.

They showed a list of the bottom 5 passers in the NFL since 2006 (based on passer rating), and here's how it breaks down:

VY: 68.8
Derek Anderson: 75.2
Eli Manning: 78.9
Jon Kitna: 79.6
JP Losman: 79.6


I was surprised that Alex wasn't in that group, but the minimum games started to qualify was 25.

Alex only played in 23 games in that span, so he just missed the cut. Had he been eligible, he would have been at the top (bottom) of the pack.

His passer rating for that time period would be an even 66.0, easily the worst in the league.

And keep in mind this does NOT include his rookie numbers, which were even worse.

I know he's looking good in some practices so far, but these numbers scare me.

Used a QB rating calculator and his QB rating over that time is 69.43. Not the worst qb