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QB Competition

Ok I see your point and in a way I agree. But at the same time if you take into account a win being a win, does the preseason count as Nate Davis being better then them both because he had a good game against back ups. Because in reality that's what Hill did when he beat the Buccaneers correct? I will say 7-3 looks good on paper though no doubt just some times stats and records can be very deceiving.
Originally posted by valrod33:
i dont see how people are saying that Smith played like s**t, his recievers dropped 3 passes that should have been caught, the INT should have been caught and Bruce and Davis dropped 1 each on the first drive.

Im not saying Smith looked great but he didnt look as bad as everybody is saying either

Now im not saying Smith looked like Tom Brady out there, but he and Hill looked similar, i think Smith looked a little more poised in the pocket

I dont think either Hill or Smith seperated themselves, hopefully the Dallas game one of these guys outplays the other big time so we can end this crap and name a starter already

Im pro Alex but i have no problem if Hill wins the job, especially after the way he played last year
  • dj43
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  • Posts: 20,155
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Jesus, will all you Smith apologetics get REAL for once ? Is it sheer coincidence that EVERYTIME Smith is our QB, the "drops" and "miscues" by our receivers increase ? Did it ever occur to you people that Alex Smith is too slow in his reads, and that by the time he throws to his receivers, they're way past running their routes and are circling the field like chickens with their heads cut off. Yeah, if I ran a 5 yard outpattern, didnt have my QB throw to me......Id be running like a maniac too around all those defenders. Which would definitely skew my attention level to a point where I might not be concentrating on the ball too well.

Seriously, some of you guys need to wake up. Why dont you go back and pull out ALL your posts from Webzone archives that state "receivers dropped the ball", "receivers dropped the ball", "receivers dropped the ball". It's freaking hilarious, cause this "problem" only exists with Smith in. And please, dont even bother to try and convince us realists that Alex Smith has an arm like Favre's, and his receivers cant see the ball.

The truth: Alex doesnt do a good job reading through his progressions. When he does, he throws a bad ball. When he doesnt, he forces his receivers into unconventional positions. No s**t they keep dropping balls.

Im not saying Hill is Montana reincarnate. But he sure as hell has better command of the field than Smith has. And Id rather put the ball in his hands on 3rd and 21, than give Smith a shot on 3rd and 5.

If Alex is slow in his progressions... and sometimes he is... that is no excuse for receivers to drop catchable passes. Ball comes your way? You catch it, or you sit the bench. The only thing rediculous is this desparation by some to discredit Alex Smith. There are things that he needs to do better... ball placement and decision making... but that will come with time and comfort behind center.

Bottom line is catchable passes get caught... or it's on the receivers. They make too much coin for this pampered belief that the ball must be put perfectly placed.
For the record, Smith was NOT slow in his progressions agains the Raiders. The first pass to Davis was his second option and he put it right in stride. The only "bad" throw was the one that went through Morgan's hands for a pick. Though that was a ball a quality receiver should have caught, it is one that will get a receiver hammered while doing so. From a technical standpoint, this was the best game we have seen from Smith.

But again, all of this stuff will be decided on the field. Everyone has their POV but the facts are that Smith has NEVER had a quality position coach and even Steve Young, whose comments were posted somewhat out of context, would agree that until a player is shown and told what to do by someone who knows what they are talking about, it is impossible for them to have the entire package.


....and now back to your regular programming...
In a general conclusion if Hill does start I hope he performs better then he did on Saturday or we won't win any games. Point is as fans we should want the team to succeed and we have to admit both quarterbacks don't look that great and in that case the start would go to Hill and HOPEFULLY he turns it on during the season because we do have a good running game and defense but that quarterback can be the wild card. If he keeps turnovers down and moves the chains on third downs we could be a black horse :)!
  • crzy
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 39,280
This entire QB competition has been a giant waste of time. Singletary should have named Shaun Hill the starter last offseason.

It's the second mistake he's made since being named head coach.

The first was replacing Mike Martz with Jimmy Raye.
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Jesus, will all you Smith apologetics get REAL for once ? Is it sheer coincidence that EVERYTIME Smith is our QB, the "drops" and "miscues" by our receivers increase ? Did it ever occur to you people that Alex Smith is too slow in his reads, and that by the time he throws to his receivers, they're way past running their routes and are circling the field like chickens with their heads cut off. Yeah, if I ran a 5 yard outpattern, didnt have my QB throw to me......Id be running like a maniac too around all those defenders. Which would definitely skew my attention level to a point where I might not be concentrating on the ball too well.

Seriously, some of you guys need to wake up. Why dont you go back and pull out ALL your posts from Webzone archives that state "receivers dropped the ball", "receivers dropped the ball", "receivers dropped the ball". It's freaking hilarious, cause this "problem" only exists with Smith in. And please, dont even bother to try and convince us realists that Alex Smith has an arm like Favre's, and his receivers cant see the ball.

The truth: Alex doesnt do a good job reading through his progressions. When he does, he throws a bad ball. When he doesnt, he forces his receivers into unconventional positions. No s**t they keep dropping balls.

Im not saying Hill is Montana reincarnate. But he sure as hell has better command of the field than Smith has. And Id rather put the ball in his hands on 3rd and 21, than give Smith a shot on 3rd and 5.

If Alex is slow in his progressions... and sometimes he is... that is no excuse for receivers to drop catchable passes. Ball comes your way? You catch it, or you sit the bench. The only thing rediculous is this desparation by some to discredit Alex Smith. There are things that he needs to do better... ball placement and decision making... but that will come with time and comfort behind center.

Bottom line is catchable passes get caught... or it's on the receivers. They make too much coin for this pampered belief that the ball must be put perfectly placed.
For the record, Smith was NOT slow in his progressions agains the Raiders. The first pass to Davis was his second option and he put it right in stride. The only "bad" throw was the one that went through Morgan's hands for a pick. Though that was a ball a quality receiver should have caught, it is one that will get a receiver hammered while doing so. From a technical standpoint, this was the best game we have seen from Smith.

But again, all of this stuff will be decided on the field. Everyone has their POV but the facts are that Smith has NEVER had a quality position coach and even Steve Young, whose comments were posted somewhat out of context, would agree that until a player is shown and told what to do by someone who knows what they are talking about, it is impossible for them to have the entire package.


....and now back to your regular programming...

He wasn't slow -- but he also wasn't hitting his primary routes -- even though replays showed he had the room.

Go back and look at his progressions. He was hitting the second and third "safe" option every single time. Dink and dunk. It was the same Alex Smith I've seen since Day One. He simply lacks the confidence to zing the ball downfield.

To be honest? Really honest? I think Hill is a stopgap measure at best. The best QB on the roster at this point appears to be Nate Davis.

But he's nowhere near ready. In a year or two? Mebbe. Now? No.
As billbird noticed, Smith often took the "safe" pass. What good does all that arm strength do if he won't use it? This may just be a confidence thing until he gets a little more settled. However, it was definitely an interesting observation...
Originally posted by billbird2111:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Jesus, will all you Smith apologetics get REAL for once ? Is it sheer coincidence that EVERYTIME Smith is our QB, the "drops" and "miscues" by our receivers increase ? Did it ever occur to you people that Alex Smith is too slow in his reads, and that by the time he throws to his receivers, they're way past running their routes and are circling the field like chickens with their heads cut off. Yeah, if I ran a 5 yard outpattern, didnt have my QB throw to me......Id be running like a maniac too around all those defenders. Which would definitely skew my attention level to a point where I might not be concentrating on the ball too well.

Seriously, some of you guys need to wake up. Why dont you go back and pull out ALL your posts from Webzone archives that state "receivers dropped the ball", "receivers dropped the ball", "receivers dropped the ball". It's freaking hilarious, cause this "problem" only exists with Smith in. And please, dont even bother to try and convince us realists that Alex Smith has an arm like Favre's, and his receivers cant see the ball.

The truth: Alex doesnt do a good job reading through his progressions. When he does, he throws a bad ball. When he doesnt, he forces his receivers into unconventional positions. No s**t they keep dropping balls.

Im not saying Hill is Montana reincarnate. But he sure as hell has better command of the field than Smith has. And Id rather put the ball in his hands on 3rd and 21, than give Smith a shot on 3rd and 5.

If Alex is slow in his progressions... and sometimes he is... that is no excuse for receivers to drop catchable passes. Ball comes your way? You catch it, or you sit the bench. The only thing rediculous is this desparation by some to discredit Alex Smith. There are things that he needs to do better... ball placement and decision making... but that will come with time and comfort behind center.

Bottom line is catchable passes get caught... or it's on the receivers. They make too much coin for this pampered belief that the ball must be put perfectly placed.
For the record, Smith was NOT slow in his progressions agains the Raiders. The first pass to Davis was his second option and he put it right in stride. The only "bad" throw was the one that went through Morgan's hands for a pick. Though that was a ball a quality receiver should have caught, it is one that will get a receiver hammered while doing so. From a technical standpoint, this was the best game we have seen from Smith.

But again, all of this stuff will be decided on the field. Everyone has their POV but the facts are that Smith has NEVER had a quality position coach and even Steve Young, whose comments were posted somewhat out of context, would agree that until a player is shown and told what to do by someone who knows what they are talking about, it is impossible for them to have the entire package.


....and now back to your regular programming...

He wasn't slow -- but he also wasn't hitting his primary routes -- even though replays showed he had the room.

Go back and look at his progressions. He was hitting the second and third "safe" option every single time. Dink and dunk. It was the same Alex Smith I've seen since Day One. He simply lacks the confidence to zing the ball downfield.

To be honest? Really honest? I think Hill is a stopgap measure at best. The best QB on the roster at this point appears to be Nate Davis.

But he's nowhere near ready. In a year or two? Mebbe. Now? No.

A logical, unemotional post! I agree except that Hill is slightly better than a stopgap and I think, capable of getting us into the playoffs. how far? Who knows. As for this ridiculous competition, I'm a bit disappointed in Sing. If all things are equal, as they claim, then the job should go to Hill by default.
Yes, except for the drops (which were catchable, no matter if they were late or not), Smith made positive strides where Hill was mediocre at best. But, if this brought them "even", then just name Hill the starter and move on. If he falters, well then Smith's had the extra time to become more comfortable with the offense, which even his college coach says is imperative to his ultimate success. Why doesn't this make sense to so many of you? It just seems logical IMHO.
Originally posted by Thrash88:
In a general conclusion if Hill does start I hope he performs better then he did on Saturday or we won't win any games. Point is as fans we should want the team to succeed and we have to admit both quarterbacks don't look that great and in that case the start would go to Hill and HOPEFULLY he turns it on during the season because we do have a good running game and defense but that quarterback can be the wild card. If he keeps turnovers down and moves the chains on third downs we could be a black horse :)!

From the looks of how our offense is during the preseason, Shaun Hill will be a much better game manager. We'll be running the ball a lot so we don't necessarily have to worry about Hill throwing the ball often. I like how you bring in the stats and how Hill hasn't beaten good teams. The Bucs had almost all their defensive starters in the game that year. The Jets were still in the playoff hunt, the Redskins, on paper, were a much better team than us, and the Bills are a difficult team to beat on the road, especially with our success rate on the road. The fact of the matter is this, Hill doesn't need to throw 50-70 yards down the field to be a good QB. What he does well, is he doesn't make many mistakes, he makes quick reads, and he is pretty accurate. He moves the chains and puts points on the board. You say you know football, and so do I and a lot of people on this site. The only thing that matters is the WIN. Shaun Hill is a winner.
[ Edited by SF69ers on Aug 24, 2009 at 12:41 PM ]
Originally posted by crzy:
This entire QB competition has been a giant waste of time. Singletary should have named Shaun Hill the starter last offseason.

It's the second mistake he's made since being named head coach.

The first was replacing Mike Martz with Jimmy Raye.[/quote]

Forgive me good sir but i disagree, and the reason why is that Martz system is not for our personel and he would forget about Frankie G and the running game. Every chance he got, he wanted to throw the ball.

Rememeber when we lost to Miami and there was 23 consecutive passes. He is not quite the Genius everyone made him out to be, but that's my belief.
Does anybody get the feeling that the higher ups (McClueless) is pressuring Singletary to name Smith as the starter. Because it really makes no sense for Singletary to wait this long.

Personally I think we are screwed at QB. Smith is an epic fail and everybody knows it. Also I have a feeling that Hill is going to be exposed now that defenses have enough film on him.
I will say it again, I totally hate QB competitions in camp and preseason. Once again we should have just named Hill the starter from day one and see if Alex could unseat him. Jimmy Raye wanted it that way, it helps the starters to continue to build the continuity and sets everything in place.

Why all the bickering about who looks better in preseason? It's hard to gauge both Shaun and Alex when neither one has played with a full starting 11.

No Gore (extended play)
No Bruce (extended play)
No Baas
Limited amount of plays
Lots of hand offs

Preseason is to see what we have in rookies. I think everyone knows what we have in Smith and Hill.
  • dj43
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 20,155
Originally posted by BETTERDAYZ9ERS:
I will say it again, I totally hate QB competitions in camp and preseason. Once again we should have just named Hill the starter from day one and see if Alex could unseat him. Jimmy Raye wanted it that way, it helps the starters to continue to build the continuity and sets everything in place.

Why all the bickering about who looks better in preseason? It's hard to gauge both Shaun and Alex when neither one has played with a full starting 11.

No Gore (extended play)
No Bruce (extended play)
No Baas
Limited amount of plays
Lots of hand offs

Preseason is to see what we have in rookies. I think everyone knows what we have in Smith and Hill.
I won't get involved in a lot of bickering about Singletary, but this issue of "naming" the starting QB is why I do not like a defensive coach as HC - they just do not have the proper "feel" for how important the position of QB is to the team.

The HC and starting QB must be joined at the hip if the offense is to run smoothly. That doesn't preclude a defensive coach from having a good offense, just that it puts one more hurdle in the path of offensive success.

We must remember, MS came from a championship Chicago team that had Jim McMahon as the starter for much of Singletary's time there. The team won by running the ball and playing great defense.

It if further interesting to note, that franchise has continued to struggle for lack of quality play at QB ever since. (No, I don't think Cutler is the answer but that is for another thread)
  • dj43
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 20,155
Originally posted by billbird2111:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by ZRF80:
Jesus, will all you Smith apologetics get REAL for once ? Is it sheer coincidence that EVERYTIME Smith is our QB, the "drops" and "miscues" by our receivers increase ? Did it ever occur to you people that Alex Smith is too slow in his reads, and that by the time he throws to his receivers, they're way past running their routes and are circling the field like chickens with their heads cut off. Yeah, if I ran a 5 yard outpattern, didnt have my QB throw to me......Id be running like a maniac too around all those defenders. Which would definitely skew my attention level to a point where I might not be concentrating on the ball too well.

Seriously, some of you guys need to wake up. Why dont you go back and pull out ALL your posts from Webzone archives that state "receivers dropped the ball", "receivers dropped the ball", "receivers dropped the ball". It's freaking hilarious, cause this "problem" only exists with Smith in. And please, dont even bother to try and convince us realists that Alex Smith has an arm like Favre's, and his receivers cant see the ball.

The truth: Alex doesnt do a good job reading through his progressions. When he does, he throws a bad ball. When he doesnt, he forces his receivers into unconventional positions. No s**t they keep dropping balls.

Im not saying Hill is Montana reincarnate. But he sure as hell has better command of the field than Smith has. And Id rather put the ball in his hands on 3rd and 21, than give Smith a shot on 3rd and 5.

If Alex is slow in his progressions... and sometimes he is... that is no excuse for receivers to drop catchable passes. Ball comes your way? You catch it, or you sit the bench. The only thing rediculous is this desparation by some to discredit Alex Smith. There are things that he needs to do better... ball placement and decision making... but that will come with time and comfort behind center.

Bottom line is catchable passes get caught... or it's on the receivers. They make too much coin for this pampered belief that the ball must be put perfectly placed.
For the record, Smith was NOT slow in his progressions agains the Raiders. The first pass to Davis was his second option and he put it right in stride. The only "bad" throw was the one that went through Morgan's hands for a pick. Though that was a ball a quality receiver should have caught, it is one that will get a receiver hammered while doing so. From a technical standpoint, this was the best game we have seen from Smith.

But again, all of this stuff will be decided on the field. Everyone has their POV but the facts are that Smith has NEVER had a quality position coach and even Steve Young, whose comments were posted somewhat out of context, would agree that until a player is shown and told what to do by someone who knows what they are talking about, it is impossible for them to have the entire package.


....and now back to your regular programming...

He wasn't slow -- but he also wasn't hitting his primary routes -- even though replays showed he had the room.

Go back and look at his progressions. He was hitting the second and third "safe" option every single time. Dink and dunk. It was the same Alex Smith I've seen since Day One. He simply lacks the confidence to zing the ball downfield.

To be honest? Really honest? I think Hill is a stopgap measure at best. The best QB on the roster at this point appears to be Nate Davis.

But he's nowhere near ready. In a year or two? Mebbe. Now? No.
I agree Hill is a stop-gap. He clearly does not have the arm strength to keep defenses honest for a season.

back to Smith, in looking at the replays, Smith had two plays where the primary receiver came open but at that moment, Smith had a d-lineman with his hands up that prevented him from going there.

I wasn't at this game so I can't comment more than what I have said here.
  • dj43
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 20,155
Originally posted by SF69ers:
Originally posted by Thrash88:
In a general conclusion if Hill does start I hope he performs better then he did on Saturday or we won't win any games. Point is as fans we should want the team to succeed and we have to admit both quarterbacks don't look that great and in that case the start would go to Hill and HOPEFULLY he turns it on during the season because we do have a good running game and defense but that quarterback can be the wild card. If he keeps turnovers down and moves the chains on third downs we could be a black horse :)!

From the looks of how our offense is during the preseason, Shaun Hill will be a much better game manager. We'll be running the ball a lot so we don't necessarily have to worry about Hill throwing the ball often. I like how you bring in the stats and how Hill hasn't beaten good teams. The Bucs had almost all their defensive starters in the game that year. The Jets were still in the playoff hunt, the Redskins, on paper, were a much better team than us, and the Bills are a difficult team to beat on the road, especially with our success rate on the road. The fact of the matter is this, Hill doesn't need to throw 50-70 yards down the field to be a good QB. What he does well, is he doesn't make many mistakes, he makes quick reads, and he is pretty accurate. He moves the chains and puts points on the board. You say you know football, and so do I and a lot of people on this site. The only thing that matters is the WIN. Shaun Hill is a winner.
With Hill at QB, the key to the passing game will be how well Hill can deal with teams that rotate linebackers back into the short-to-intermediate zones where Hill likes to go.

If I were a DC going against Hill, I would play bump-and-run on the outside - jam the wideouts so they could not get deep early, and then plug the short zones as above. I do not believe Hill can defeat a team that executes that kind of plan. In that case, Gore/Coffee better be able to run because the passing game will be nil. Worst part of that is the same strategy also puts more defenders on or near the LOS which will making the running game tough.

...play ball...