Opinion on Manny Lawson

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by doc_brown_:
He was drafted in the 1st round. Everyone here has to at least be a little dissapointed in what he has become.

I hope it ends up being that he just hasn't healed from his injury yet, because there isn't a lot of explosiveness to his game right now. But there hasn't been a time where Lawson has been a consistently explosive/dynamic player.

Maybe he'll never become the player we thought he could be. And we have to deal with the fact that he is a 1st round bust.

It could be worse! I have a cousin who's a Falcons fan, who whines to me about how the Falcons picked Jamaal Anderson over Patrick Willis in the 07 draft! The same goes for the Dolphins with Ted Ginn Jr.!!!

Remember his FF sack in the Seattle game? That was an explosive play.

He's not terrible. He'll get in there and bang! But he probably won't live up to his preceived potential.

Originally posted by doc_brown_:

Originally posted by WillistheWall:

Originally posted by doc_brown_:
He was drafted in the 1st round. Everyone here has to at least be a little dissapointed in what he has become.

I hope it ends up being that he just hasn't healed from his injury yet, because there isn't a lot of explosiveness to his game right now. But there hasn't been a time where Lawson has been a consistently explosive/dynamic player.

Maybe he'll never become the player we thought he could be. And we have to deal with the fact that he is a 1st round bust.

It could be worse! I have a cousin who's a Falcons fan, who whines to me about how the Falcons picked Jamaal Anderson over Patrick Willis in the 07 draft! The same goes for the Dolphins with Ted Ginn Jr.!!!

Remember his FF sack in the Seattle game? That was an explosive play.

He's not terrible. He'll get in there and bang! But he probably won't live up to his preceived potential.

Just because somebody is drafted in the 1st round doesn't mean that they HAVE TO become superstars.

Manny is having his best season as a pro. How is progression a bad thing? How is improving a bad thing? He is still growing into his body, let alone his evolving role on this team. Give him a break.

I am kind of torn on Manny. He doesn't really seem like a pass rusher type, but seems to get to RBs in the backfield. His coverage is also pretty decent. I am curious to see how this rotation with Parys, Manny, and Brooks work out.

My take on Manny:

What is a fact is that d/t scheme, he's only been in coverage 123 times as opposed to 288 times against the run and 292 times in pass rush situations through 12 games. The biggest improvement he made this year is against the run at the POC.

I think it's more focus. In years past, he was more focused on coverage. This year he is more focused on rushing the passer. But I do think his coverage skills and abilities are WAY overrated.

If I were to assess Manny:
Coverage - average to below average esp. for his height, range and speed
Rushing the passer- below average; always a step slow (close-but-no-cigar) and most sacks he has in his career were d/t coverage sacks or other players forcing the QB into him. Relies too much on the first step but has below average closing speed. Height works against him and he really only has one move (bull rush) and with a speed rush, OT's easily just work him outside the play
Run - above average; while still susceptible to mental errors, he's done a solid job at the POC and stringing running plays out and making stops behind the LOS (30)
Read & Recognition - average; this is an area he has improved on from last years but is still a work in progress as he continues to let RB's & TE's slip past him for big gains in coverage or runs himself out of plays in pass rush situations
Intangibles - interesting that his best games came (could see clear passion) once he lost his job to Brooks. Seems like a likeable player, no major character issues but has always been handed the job d/t his first round status. Has not come close to suceeding in the area he was drafted for (rushing the passer) and despite having a Mario Wiliams around him in Justin Smith, Haralson, Willis, etc. he has only moderately succeeded in his craft. he's an ideal OLB in the 4-3 with his quickness, range of speed and body-type. Average to below average in a WILL. I would like to see more fire in him (what we've seen lately) which has contibuted to some actual sacks

If Brooks learns to excel in play recognition and remains good against the run, with his pass rush ability and us playing in a 3-4, this is a no brainer; Brooks is your starting OLB @ the WILL in 2010.

Originally posted by NCommand:
My take on Manny:

What is a fact is that d/t scheme, he's only been in coverage 123 times as opposed to 288 times against the run and 292 times in pass rush situations through 12 games. The biggest improvement he made this year is against the run at the POC.

I think it's more focus. In years past, he was more focused on coverage. This year he is more focused on rushing the passer. But I do think his coverage skills and abilities are WAY overrated.

If I were to assess Manny:
Coverage - average to below average esp. for his height, range and speed
Rushing the passer- below average; always a step slow (close-but-no-cigar) and most sacks he has in his career were d/t coverage sacks or other players forcing the QB into him. Relies too much on the first step but has below average closing speed. Height works against him and he really only has one move (bull rush) and with a speed rush, OT's easily just work him outside the play
Run - above average; while still susceptible to mental errors, he's done a solid job at the POC and stringing running plays out and making stops behind the LOS (30)
Read & Recognition - average; this is an area he has improved on from last years but is still a work in progress as he continues to let RB's & TE's slip past him for big gains in coverage or runs himself out of plays in pass rush situations
Intangibles - interesting that his best games came (could see clear passion) once he lost his job to Brooks. Seems like a likeable player, no major character issues but has always been handed the job d/t his first round status. Has not come close to suceeding in the area he was drafted for (rushing the passer) and despite having a Mario Wiliams around him in Justin Smith, Haralson, Willis, etc. he has only moderately succeeded in his craft. he's an ideal OLB in the 4-3 with his quickness, range of speed and body-type. Average to below average in a WILL. I would like to see more fire in him (what we've seen lately) which has contibuted to some actual sacks

If Brooks learns to excel in play recognition and remains good against the run, with his pass rush ability and us playing in a 3-4, this is a no brainer; Brooks is your starting OLB @ the WILL in 2010.

Good assessment, though i'm not sure how Mario Williams compares to Justin SMith, Haralson, Willis, etc. Mario Williams is one of the best DE's in football. All of the rest of our players in the front seven (aside from Willis) are average or above average.

I love Justin Smith and what he does for us, but he is no Mario Williams.

I was hoping that Manny would develop into the same mold as Julian Peterson, but that is looking more and more unlikely. I am more optimistic about our OLB's as an entity than Manny Lawson as "the answer" at the WILL.

Originally posted by KknighthawkK_9er:
Good assessment, though i'm not sure how Mario Williams compares to Justin SMith, Haralson, Willis, etc. Mario Williams is one of the best DE's in football. All of the rest of our players in the front seven (aside from Willis) are average or above average.

I love Justin Smith and what he does for us, but he is no Mario Williams.

I was hoping that Manny would develop into the same mold as Julian Peterson, but that is looking more and more unlikely. I am more optimistic about our OLB's as an entity than Manny Lawson as "the answer" at the WILL.

Yeah, thinking about it more, you are probably right. I believe the original point I was trying to make was that when the Niners reviewed film of Mario Williams, they kept noticing Manny Lawson. Thus one would conclude that Manny would be most successful with at least one top tier pass rusher to feed off of. We don't really have a top tier pass rusher but this year, the d-line has done more then their part coupled with the inside blitz of Willis, a few sacks from Haralson and some CB & Safety blitzes, there really isn't an excuse for Manny NOT to be a dominant pass rusher.

I've always likened Lawson to Peterson too in many ways - smaller, more athletic LBers that are good in coverage, are versatile and can be moved around a lot. But we must remember that Peterson didn't fit a 3-4 either and was horrible for us. It wasn't until he went back to Seattle (fully healthy) in a 4-3 defense that he could be highlighted again. I do feel Peterson had slightly better natural pass rushing skills but Lawson is better against the run. Teams always knew the best way to beat Seattle was to run right at Peterson. We sure did!

Wow he's leading our team in sacks and you guys are really having the above conversation?

Originally posted by WillistheWall:
Wow he's leading our team in sacks and you guys are really having the above conversation?

5.5 sacks in 292 attempts? Brooks has 5 in only 80 pass rush attempts. Damn right we're talking about this!

Originally posted by NCommand:
My take on Manny:

What is a fact is that d/t scheme, he's only been in coverage 123 times as opposed to 288 times against the run and 292 times in pass rush situations through 12 games. The biggest improvement he made this year is against the run at the POC.

I think it's more focus. In years past, he was more focused on coverage. This year he is more focused on rushing the passer. But I do think his coverage skills and abilities are WAY overrated.

If I were to assess Manny:
Coverage - average to below average esp. for his height, range and speed
Rushing the passer- below average; always a step slow (close-but-no-cigar) and most sacks he has in his career were d/t coverage sacks or other players forcing the QB into him. Relies too much on the first step but has below average closing speed. Height works against him and he really only has one move (bull rush) and with a speed rush, OT's easily just work him outside the play
Run - above average; while still susceptible to mental errors, he's done a solid job at the POC and stringing running plays out and making stops behind the LOS (30)
Read & Recognition - average; this is an area he has improved on from last years but is still a work in progress as he continues to let RB's & TE's slip past him for big gains in coverage or runs himself out of plays in pass rush situations
Intangibles - interesting that his best games came (could see clear passion) once he lost his job to Brooks. Seems like a likeable player, no major character issues but has always been handed the job d/t his first round status. Has not come close to suceeding in the area he was drafted for (rushing the passer) and despite having a Mario Wiliams around him in Justin Smith, Haralson, Willis, etc. he has only moderately succeeded in his craft. he's an ideal OLB in the 4-3 with his quickness, range of speed and body-type. Average to below average in a WILL. I would like to see more fire in him (what we've seen lately) which has contibuted to some actual sacks

If Brooks learns to excel in play recognition and remains good against the run, with his pass rush ability and us playing in a 3-4, this is a no brainer; Brooks is your starting OLB @ the WILL in 2010.

Agreed. I say bench Lawson for good until he A) improves to win back the starting job or b) someone gets hurt were he has to come back in to start.

I think Manny is completely overrated and has never produced. Now he got hurt a few years ago but this season should have been his coming out party and he just looks like an average NFL player.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by WillistheWall:
Wow he's leading our team in sacks and you guys are really having the above conversation?

5.5 sacks in 292 attempts? Brooks has 5 in only 80 pass rush attempts. Damn right we're talking about this!

And don't forget that Lawson was given the pass rushing duties so on every passing down he had one JOB....to get to the QB. Sure he got 5 sacks (which is horrible for the pass rushing LB in a 3-4) but his QB pressures are nearly non-existent.

Originally posted by taney71:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by WillistheWall:
Wow he's leading our team in sacks and you guys are really having the above conversation?

5.5 sacks in 292 attempts? Brooks has 5 in only 80 pass rush attempts. Damn right we're talking about this!

And don't forget that Lawson was given the pass rushing duties so on every passing down he had one JOB....to get to the QB. Sure he got 5 sacks (which is horrible for the pass rushing LB in a 3-4) but his QB pressures are nearly non-existent.

You hit the nail on the head with that one! In the past, we used the fact that he was a rookie. Then the injury and poor supporting cast.

But this year was to be HIS year - fully healthy and let's be honest, the d-line has done an outstanding job not only in tying up blockers but getting pressure AND sacks and this year with collective help from others such as Haralson, Willis and many successful CB & Safety blitzes, Lawson has ZERO excuses not to be an elite pass rusher esp. when his primary duty was to rush the passer from day 1.

Per Singletary, Brooks will be given a shot to complete for a starting spot next year most likely but it would be nice to see an audition for the last few games (assuming he's 100% healthy and in great shape).

Originally posted by taney71:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by WillistheWall:
Wow he's leading our team in sacks and you guys are really having the above conversation?

5.5 sacks in 292 attempts? Brooks has 5 in only 80 pass rush attempts. Damn right we're talking about this!

And don't forget that Lawson was given the pass rushing duties so on every passing down he had one JOB....to get to the QB. Sure he got 5 sacks (which is horrible for the pass rushing LB in a 3-4) but his QB pressures are nearly non-existent.

I agree!

Some of you are ripping on Manny like you do just about everybody else(gee what a surprise).

Manny is having a good season(it doesn't all show up in stats),some people just don't know football